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A conversation with a gaming journalist

AnalogKid

Scholar
Joined
Nov 24, 2005
Messages
291
Location
SoCal
denizsi said:
Along all these things, you arrogantly talk about professional journalism and call yourself one; a profeshunal!11 journalist. Oh by the way, go back to English 101
I'm not much of a dick licker (aside: no really! Some of my best friends are faggots...), but I'd just like to point out that robur is not the same person as everyone's favorite sideshow weasel freak. They have shared the same "side" of some arguments, but as DU mentioned, robur at least seems like a relatively rational, sincere, SANE person.

If you still want to whack him in the peepee, I'll provide the hot oil and let you and him wrestle it out, but it in the true old-time Proverbian Codex way, it just wouldn't be right for someone to be exposed to any negative energy that wasn't fully deserved.
 

Naked Ninja

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
1,664
Location
South Africa
I have no reason to do similar things at work and show someone what a real accountant, for example, looks like. However, I've done things that someone like you would consider unethical and unprofessional, and I've done them openly, without hiding behind anonymity.

So thats a 'no' then. And please, give the melodramatically vague "I've been bad in the past" posturing a break. If theres one thing the internet needs more of, its melodrama. Also, enough with the "I was just showing what a real journalist is like!" schtick. You got rejected. He was plainly honest with you as to why. Be a big boy about it. Running to your friends to validate your view of "he rejected me because he is EVIL and CORRUPT and STUPID" is childish.

What trust? If I PM you, telling you what a wonderful day it is today and that I had a donut for lunch, would posting it openly violate my trust?

Stop playing the simpleton act, it really doesn't suit you. You know as well as I do the difference. Try this exercise. Get up off your computer and go present the two examples to someone, I don't care who, what you've done and revealing a message stating "I had a donut for lunch". Now, looking them in the eye, state that you firmly and honestly believe there to be absolutely no difference whatsoever between the two. Now hold that gaze while they look at you first in suprise to see if you are joking, then in contempt at your simpleness. Then come back to your computer and resume the discussion without resorting to such an asinine tactic, it just makes you look silly. Donuts. Honestly now.

. You can cry "u broked his trust!!! it was privaet!!!" all you want, but without facts explaining and proving the damage and harm, it's kinda pointless and silly.

You seem to be labouring under a misconception there friend. I do not need to prove to you or anyone else that what you did was unprofessional/unethical any more than I need to prove that the sun will rise tomorrow. It will, and it was. Even your supporters know it, whether they care to admit it or not, for eg :

Sure, Private Messages are supposed to be private but do I give a shit? Nope. Not when it's Patrick and he's continuing the same inane argument.

TRANSLATION : I know it was unethical but I don't care because I don't like the guy or what he said.

There have quite a few posts like that one. So I don't need to explain the ethics of it mate. They already know. Most of them just don't care so long as you give them a good laugh.

But if you want me to explain the damage, I will. The damage, all of it, was to yourself. Your reputation. Patrick has lost nothing, don't kid yourself. He didn't "run away", as you so pompously put it to make it seem like you've won a great victory against the Evil Journalist Hordes. You on the other hand have damaged your reputation. Cut off your nose to spite your face. Whether you admit it or not. You look petulant and childish to others in an industry you'd like to enter and influence. No one will take you seriously when you shout "Allen Rausch acted unprofessionally!" when you do the same yourself. You claim to be professional while proving the exact opposite with your actions. Like I said, glass houses mate.

Didn't we cover this topic in the Pete full of shit Hines thread? No one at RPG Codex sucks developer, publisher or journalist dick. If you're a moron, then be prepared to be called one, no one here gives a shit who you are and what your standards are.

Treating a private conversation as, you know, private isn't "sucking his dick". Oh you kids with your melodrama! It takes a special kind of immaturity to consider treating others with some slight amount of respect to be "submitting to them" or acting subservient.
 

Calis

Pensionado
Joined
Jun 15, 2002
Messages
1,834
Look, Saint was awesome to have around and all that, but I wouldn't say that what he added to the Codex was superior journalistic ability or even superior forum management principles. The VD/DU + rest combo we have now is as good as he ever was. What Saint added was these things:
1. His sense of humour; he's a funny guy
2. His analytical capability, though again, we still have enough of that at the Codex
3. An unambiguous chain of command; everybody agreed at the time that he could be in charge. Not that shit's crashed and burned since we no longer have an unambiguously-defined dictator, but still. Right now we have a power structure based on merit, respect and access; it's always better to have a hierarchy based on less ambiguous criteria, and the "Saint is the boss in the end" system provided just that.
 

Calis

Pensionado
Joined
Jun 15, 2002
Messages
1,834
MF said:
Patrick takes it to a whole new level by arguing about professional ethics and meta-morality without addressing any of your comments.
Quoted again because this summarizes nicely why deadaris' discussion style makes him a weasel. Doesn't invalidate the meta-morality point of "people should be able to decide for themselves which of their weasel arguments get posted in a public thread" but it does show why posting the PM's was defendable even though it wasn't justifiable. I agree with the Naked Ninjas of this world in that you shouldn't post PM's, but in this case the PM discussion has become just another in a long list of arguments to cop out of bringing any actual arguments to the table in the discussion (the previews one, not the "who is being unprofessional here" one)
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
robur said:
Oh, VD, I had to smile at this one:

My job is to make sure that sales numbers are going up. Month after month after month. I can do whatever the fuck I want, but as long as them numbers are going up, I'm the the height or professionalism. Spiritual leader I'm not.
Now, I guess Pete Hines would say the same thing - you guys share a job description. He gets called on it, though. ;) Just a thought.
I don't think that anyone would disagree that Pete Hines is extremely good at what he does. Similarly, as a business Bethesda does very well and deserves a pat on the back.

Personally, I don't mind that Pete & Co have a tendency to make shit up and exaggerate qualities of their games. What I do mind, and that's why I often draw everyone's attention to these lies, is that both gamers and the media are more than willing to buy Bethesda's every word without questioning, then buy their game, see that it's not exactly what was promised ... and then start all over again: buy Bethesda' every word about the new game without questioning, etc. Rinse & Repeat.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
Naked Ninja, I'm growing tired of your stupidity. When I get really tired of you, I'll throw you out. Yes, because I can. Keep that in mind when you start typing your reply. I'm always willing to discuss something, even my alleged lack of ethics, but not when someone posts some dumb shit and tries to pass it for an argument. Anyway...

Naked Ninja said:
Also, enough with the "I was just showing what a real journalist is like!" schtick. You got rejected. He was plainly honest with you as to why. Be a big boy about it. Running to your friends to validate your view of "he rejected me because he is EVIL and CORRUPT and STUPID" is childish.
Rejected? How? You are not talking about AoD coverage, are you? If you are, reread the conversation:

Without having looked yet, if it's PC and indie it'll probably get discussed on the podcast or a column, unless it really peaks our PC EiC's interest. We don't cover much indie stuff.
But I'll check it out. I'm sure I can squeeze some impressions into the podcast, since that's my project one way.
...
WHERE'S MY PRESS JUNKET!
No, is there a build available? Looks like a setting I'd dig and a basically good system, but hands-on would be great and I don't see the link anywhere...
...
Let me know when you have a preview build. I'll pass the site over to PC and see what they think...

Stop playing the simpleton act, it really doesn't suit you. You know as well as I do the difference. Try this exercise. Get up off your computer and go present the two examples to someone, I don't care who, what you've done and revealing a message stating "I had a donut for lunch". Now, looking them in the eye, state that you firmly and honestly believe there to be absolutely no difference whatsoever between the two. Now hold that gaze while they look at you first in suprise to see if you are joking, then in contempt at your simpleness. Then come back to your computer and resume the discussion without resorting to such an asinine tactic, it just makes you look silly. Donuts. Honestly now.
You are the one who's playing simpleton here. My donut analogy implies that what I posted was relatively harmless. What I posted may be considered the icing on the cake, but Patrick provided the cake in that 16-page thread on his own free will and nothing that I revealed goes against the impression he created of himself.

You seem to be labouring under a misconception there friend. I do not need to prove to you or anyone else that what you did was unprofessional/unethical...
That's where you are mistaken, "friend". You do need to prove it, assuming you would rather avoid being banned.

But if you want me to explain the damage, I will. The damage, all of it, was to yourself. Your reputation. Patrick has lost nothing, don't kid yourself. He didn't "run away", as you so pompously put it to make it seem like you've won a great victory against the Evil Journalist Hordes. You on the other hand have damaged your reputation. Cut off your nose to spite your face. Whether you admit it or not. You look petulant and childish to others in an industry you'd like to enter and influence. No one will take you seriously when you shout "Allen Rausch acted unprofessionally!" when you do the same yourself. You claim to be professional while proving the exact opposite with your actions. Like I said, glass houses mate.
I can see why you like Patrick so much. You both like to make bold claims, but think that proving anything or supporting your claims with arguments is completely unnecessary.
 

Gambler

Augur
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Messages
767
Vault Dweller said:
Where is the proof that I treated Patrick "like things"?
When you completely disregard someone's position, you're effectively treating the person like a thing.

It's pretty clear, for example, what kinda game the Fallout fans want, yet it doesn't stop the gaming media from disregarding their wishes
That's why media is wrong. They completely disregard some people and rules because it's convenient. In this thread you're doing a similar thing on a smaller scale, yet claim to be right.

I've so many "Bethesda won't screw up FO3 because the media's backlash would be terrifying!" arguments
How did your post change it, though? I do not see any ground-shaking revelations. All I see is a bunch of stupid arguments made by a guy whom I never even heard of before. You're saying it's about some standards of journalism, but this thread is about entertainment, not reporting.

"Pure Comedy Gold."
"I actually laughed out loud."
"You know nothing about professional comedy!"
"Aw man, this is too funny."

Futile Rhetoric said:
That would be one of the tenets of Kantian ethics.
Kant was the first person in the world to propose not to treat people like things?

There are plenty of other views.
There is always plenty of other views. However, relative pick-your-favorite ethics is like a fire extinguisher loaded with gasoline.

Vault Dweller said:
As a gaming journalist, what is the right - professionally - course of action?
Not disclosing sources without their permission and not becoming part of the news is always a good idea.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
Gambler said:
Vault Dweller said:
Where is the proof that I treated Patrick "like things"?
When you completely disregard someone's position, you're effectively treating the person like a thing.
Again, where is the proof that a) I disregarded Patrick's position - as far as I know, we argued and disagreed, and b) that disregarding someone's position = treating him like a thing?

...yet claim to be right.
I don't claim to be right. Concepts like right and wrong are utterly subjective and always depends on one's position on certain things and issues. I merely disagree that what I did was horribly unprofessional and unethical, and that the only person who's is officially worse than me now is Hitler.

How did your post change it, though? I do not see any ground-shaking revelations. All I see is a bunch of stupid arguments made by a guy whom I never even heard of before.
And this guy happened to be a journalist working for one of the largest mainstream sites.
 

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
10,834
Thanks for sharing that. It seems, at least from Patricks words, that gaming journalism has a certain unwarranted ego to it; He more or less states that he will rub your rhubarb if you can provide him with something, and when you said 'Whatever' he was greatly taken aback, and possibly, insulted.

More than that though I found him stating two different attitudes:

A1) I have the power! I can lift you out of the gutter into stardom! What! You dare to spurn me! Heathen!

A2) No, no. We simply cannot alienate the great developers! Oh no! That would be terrible! You have to be nice, and keep everything secret that they tell you and be possitive...unless they are medium. Especially if they are small muhahaha.

So he believes in one instant that he has great power, and in another he believes that you have to tread lightly and not upset certain developers. It has something to do with sales I am sure of it, but its hardly what I would call professional. After all; Who's interests does a journalist work for? The companies first I would guess, then their readers (Though they would love people to believe it was vice versa). I guess the exclusives earn more dollars these days than a critical, fact finding journo. Not surprising when you look at the tripe in magazines, news papers, etc.

If he said he pretended to be a buddy to all in order to tell the facts once they were fully realised, fair enough. But when those facts are hidden from people, even during reviews, and then later lamented when the hordes finally start to complain about them (See 'Oh yes, the level scaling! Teh horror!' etc) by those same people....

As for the ethics garbage: Whatever. I benefited from you posting these snippets, though I don't necessarily think he is a bad guy, he really needs to come off his high horse and read what he has said from another person's perspective. :lol:
 

Koby

Scholar
Joined
Aug 8, 2006
Messages
356
robur said:
Vault Dweller said:
A question!

Let's say that I'm having a conversation with a game developer and he tells me something mind blowing. Some info about the company's unofficial motto and design philosophy or some info about publishers fucking a game in development up.

As a gaming journalist, what is the right - professionally - course of action? To say nothing to my audience and thus fail to provide critical info that people should know or to make the info public, which would fulfill my duty as a journalist but would breach someone's trust.

I'm genuinely curious what everyone thinks.
...

That said, I would make this broader as it's a question about journalism, heck, people's communication in general. I would ask myself: Does the audience benefit from the information right away? Or can it serve me into building a bigger story? Sometimes journalists research for months and months before publishing a multi page feature that cause some serious trouble to the people involved. If I wasn't preparing such a feature, I'd at least ask the developer if that stuff he told me was factual - and if it was, if there would be any lifes at stake if those facts got laid open. Providing they would be genuinely interesting and new, not just cementing an already known fact, e.g. "game development is expensive", "new consoles are hard to develop for", "this game tanked because ...". See, maybe he is preparing a Postmortem for Game Developer or a similar mag himself using those things he told you as bullet points - why would I steal his own story? Bottom line: I would treat him with the same respect I wanted to get treated with. Because I believe in business relationships based on trust, not fear and desception.

@VD I don’t know how I missed it, but I did, better late then never and all that.

I see this as – the bigger or the more important (what ever it is) that piece of information is, the more important is to somehow get some kind of conformation on this information from somewhere else, even if comes from a very reliable source, the benefits of a second source conformation is two fold, first it mean you don't have to betray trust in order to share that information with your readers, secondly one of the thing you got to be wary of (among many other things) is being manipulated by some disgruntled employee whether intentionally or not, what you are getting may be post-processed filtered information or a conclusion as the employee see it, deducted from information you don’t have access to, that employee my present his conclusion in good faith as some kind of factual information, hell it can be just someone venting off (especially in case the confidential information isn’t 'supposed' to become publicly available from the source point of view), painting a picture a lot worse that it actually is in order to get some sympathy, and these are just a few example cases from a wide reange of possibilities.

Additionally, posting rumors as news ("there are some rumors circulating lately ..." and likewise) is the least happy medium, it should be reserved as the absolute last resort, that is not being honest to everyone, not to your readers, not toward the developer, and it certainly doesn't help your credibility, only post something you are prepared to stand behind it, for better or worse.

If you really can't convince the game dev to give you his permission to use that information (making him an anonymous source) AND you really think that this information should be available to your readers AND you have gone to every possible reasonable effort to obtain that information from another source and that includes proper old fashion research AND you have exhausted every other possibility you can think of, then you ponder, you agonies but most importantly you consult, this is where experience comes into play and not just yours but your editor's (and your peers), that is your first address in situation like these. Sometimes it is hard to tell just how much, exactly, your personal opinion has an impact on your decision, if you dislike the company/person involved how can you measure your personal taint against them, you don’t want to be someone that is motivated by his thirst of blood, on the other hand if you sympathize with the company/person involved how can you measure your personal bias towards it, you don’t want to be someone that is motivated by his personal preferences.

One very important point; you always give your 'source' the opportunity to convince you not to go public with the information he gave you, ALWAYS! You owe him that, if it wasn’t for him you wouldn’t have that information to begin with, and it doesn't stop there, you have to respect his arguments no matter how much they are stupid, self-serving or narrow sighted, respect him and his arguments just like he respected you by brining that information to your doorstep. Make sure he understand your reasons, give him a chance to convince you otherwise and respect his arguments like they where yours if you where in his shoes. If you still think, after all that, you should go public with that information, in that final moment, where you are stuck between a hammer and a hard place, that is where professionalism kicks in, what makes you a professional, a real professional, is the ability to make that call.


robur said:
apologies about not answering the questions in the other threads yet, week has been very crazy writing and making E3 appointments and dealing with other random stuff ... but no complaints, I will get to them before I fly down to Santa Monica.
If that includes my Qs in there, by all means, take your time.
 

Amasius

Augur
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Messages
959
Location
Thanatos
VD, you are a monster. Following Kants Categorical Imperative I will teach you now a lesson about ethics. You publish PMs you receive? Than you have no moral right to complain if others publish your PMs too.

Here is the PM you've sent me once:

Vault Dwellers PM said:
Much better. Thanks.
That hurts, right?
 

sqeecoo

Arcane
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
2,620
Calm down VD, no need to make banning threats. Dumbfuck him if you like, but not need for a ban. Even using that as a threat is a serious abuse of moderator power.

Patric is an idiot, and the PMs offer valuable further insight into that, but Naked Ninja certainly has a point that it is rude to post PMs. Most of his arguments are stupid, though, but I can understand his outrage (although I don't have any issues with you posting the PMs - you have good reasons for it, the fact that it may be immoral is your problem).


EDIT: Oh and for God's sake, you don't say "unethical" or "ethical", it's immoral or moral (perhaps morally-justified in english).
 

Amasius

Augur
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Messages
959
Location
Thanatos
sqeecoo said:
Patric is an idiot, and the PMs offer valuable further insight into that, but Naked Ninja certainly has a point that it is rude to post PMs.
I think that everybody here agrees that it was rude to post the PMs, but is that a good reason to start another Codex drama? He is exaggerating dreadfully.
 

Naked Ninja

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
1,664
Location
South Africa
I merely disagree that what I did was horribly unprofessional and unethical, and that the only person who's is officially worse than me now is Hitler.

Egad, whats that rule about how any internet thread if it goes on long enough will eventually mention Hitler?

Come now, don't make out like everyone is painting you as Pure Evil. You acted incorrectly, you were called on it, its an easy thing to fix. Just apologise to the guy. All it takes is swallowing your pride. You said he was still sending you PMs, so he probably wants to sort it out too.

But if you want to, go ahead and ban away guy. The Codex has this "We don't give a shit about courtesy, only people who can take the heat should stick around here!" rhetoric that's thrown around as an excuse when you all tear other peoples opinions and characters apart like hyenas and the victim compains about the gang raping. But when it's turned around, when it's your character being called into question, out comes the banning card? Hypocrisy for the loss.

but not when someone posts some dumb shit and tries to pass it for an argument.

You're kidding right? Have you read the rest of the forums lately? Dumb shit is like an ingrained tradition.

He is exaggerating dreadfully.

Exaggerating? This isn't a scale of 1 to 100. Either he acted ethically or not. Black and white.You can't act half-ethically. And I'll say ethical or unethical if I feel like it, arguments over semantics are dreadfully dull.
 

Koby

Scholar
Joined
Aug 8, 2006
Messages
356
Naked Ninja said:
Exaggerating? This isn't a scale of 1 to 100. Either he acted ethically or not. Black and white.You can't act half-ethically.
This is where you fail!
 

sheek

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
8,659
Location
Cydonia
sqeecoo said:
Calm down VD, no need to make banning threats. Dumbfuck him if you like, but not need for a ban. Even using that as a threat is a serious abuse of moderator power.
It wouldn't be an abuse of moderator power, because there are not standards for what moderators can do. What it would be is another sign of weakness from VD and I think a lot of people would 'respect' him less. He's acting stupid again, seems like he does that under pressure. The thread started off OK, then Ninja comes along and makes points I personally disagree with but which are pretty reasonable. VD is tired, he's been posting like crazy for days (that's what surprises me most - how much he posts), and doesn't like being put on the spot, maybe something happened off-line that's made him irritable and he snaps.

Patric is an idiot, and the PMs offer valuable further insight into that, but Naked Ninja certainly has a point that it is rude to post PMs. Most of his arguments are stupid, though, but I can understand his outrage (although I don't have any issues with you posting the PMs - you have good reasons for it, the fact that it may be immoral is your problem).
Neither Patrick or Ninja are 'stupid'. They are wrong though, and they are probably liberals, placing more value on ethics than morality (as Astromarine's excellent article explains). Ie, a different view of how people should behave. Being a liberal should not be a bannable or dumbfuckworthy offence... possibly an illiterable offence. Patrick certainly deserved to get the Weasel tag. I think Ninja is cool though. What VD should do now is say they'll agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
 

robur

Scholar
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Messages
108
Koby said:
One very important point; you always give your 'source' the opportunity to convince you not to go public with the information he gave you, ALWAYS! You owe him that, if it wasn’t for him you wouldn’t have that information to begin with, and it doesn't stop there, you have to respect his arguments no matter how much they are stupid, self-serving or narrow sighted, respect him and his arguments just like he respected you by brining that information to your doorstep. Make sure he understand your reasons, give him a chance to convince you otherwise and respect his arguments like they where yours if you where in his shoes. If you still think, after all that, you should go public with that information, in that final moment, where you are stuck between a hammer and a hard place, that is where professionalism kicks in, what makes you a professional, a real professional, is the ability to make that call.
Thanks for being much more eloquent than this non-native speaker at 2:30am. Interestingly enough, when it would be interesting to talk about content, the discussion changes to my not perfect grammar. Interesting. And that after 100 or so messages.

robur said:
apologies about not answering the questions in the other threads yet, week has been very crazy writing and making E3 appointments and dealing with other random stuff ... but no complaints, I will get to them before I fly down to Santa Monica.
If that includes my Qs in there, by all means, take your time.
Thanks - I aim to be a man of my word, it's just that a few mags are deadlining at the moment and some other stuff is going on in RL.
 

robur

Scholar
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Messages
108
AnalogKid said:
robur said:
Because I believe in business relationships based on trust, not fear and desception.
Is that, like, when you shout *BOO* and then steal a guy's scepter or something? :P
(not really trying for a dig, robur, just thought it was funny)
Hey, I didn't get that allusion - but then I never played Sneak King either. ;-)
 

Amasius

Augur
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Messages
959
Location
Thanatos
Sometimes I wonder whats so special about VD that he attracts that much boys who are trying to provoke him and to challenge his authority. Do they have Daddy issues? I guess it's also because he is willing to discuss everything and only threatens with consequences when everybody else would have lost his patience long ago. Remember last time VD threatens with a ban? Volourn got banned - for one day or so.

The problem is not what Naked Ninja wants to discuss; it's the way he does it.
 

robur

Scholar
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Messages
108
denizsi said:
Along all these things, you arrogantly talk about professional journalism and call yourself one; a profeshunal!11 journalist. Oh by the way, go back to English 101 (in case you're not a native English speaker, please don'play that card. That's not an excuse for a professhining! journalist on a profeshield payroll).
Could you back your claims about me and what I said up for a sec? Where did I arrogantly talk about the things you described?

Wir können uns auch gerne in Deutsch oder Französisch unterhalten - ich glaube nur nicht, dass ich Dich dann überhaupt verstehen würde. ;)
 

robur

Scholar
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Messages
108
VD said:
I don't claim to be right. Concepts like right and wrong are utterly subjective and always depends on one's position on certain things and issues. I merely disagree that what I did was horribly unprofessional and unethical, and that the only person who's is officially worse than me now is Hitler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
;-)

No offense, though. Just in case somebody sees this link as arrogant fearmongering or whatever.

EDIT: For reasons beyond my control, I can't make that link clickable.
 

sheek

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
8,659
Location
Cydonia
First of all, you got the url wrong. You have to replace single quote marks with %27 (or the url will be broken).

Second, get rid of the stuff. You don't need them. Loo...Law]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

If you wanted to have the link but not the whole url spelled out then you'd use . Looky: (url=http://en.wikiped...ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law]Link
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
Naked Ninja said:
You're kidding right? Have you read the rest of the forums lately? Dumb shit is like an ingrained tradition.

And most of it is comming from you Naked Ninja. You are being retarded to the extreme. Mixing ethics with disclosing some PM. It's a decision that is up to the person who manages the forum. It's the right thing to do, to disclosing a PM from a guy that has no respect for the people in this forum or the profession he claims to have.

But since you are the guy who compare journalist ethics to any other type of business ethics, like for example ethics for prostitutes, no wonder you are a little clueless dumbfuck. It's a puzzling contradiction how you are allowed to use the educated title bellow your name.
 

robur

Scholar
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Messages
108
sheek said:
First of all, you got the url wrong. You have to replace single quote marks with %27 (or the url will be broken).
Ah, that was it. Thanks!
 

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