Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 28,038
In case you missed it, it's a conclusion of a long story that started here:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=19423
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=19423
Reply:deadairis said:You know, I wrote everything I wrote to you under the assumption that you wouldn't be trustworthy enough to keep it private, but hoping that I would be wrong.
Why do lots of indie studios never make it? Well, in part, because their members do things like publish private conversations. I'll still pass on what I think of your website to our PC side, but the fact that you're so unprofessional that you can't keep a private message private speaks volumes.
Reply:VD said:To keep what private? That you'll pass the site to someone else? Come on, Patrick, be serious. I've shared no information that could be considered confidential. Again, all you stated basically is that you'll pass the info to someone else and you stated your opinion on indie games in general. I don't see what a big deal is.deadairis said:You know, I wrote everything I wrote to you under the assumption that you wouldn't be trustworthy enough to keep it private...
Dunno. They suck at making games and/or they suck at running businesses and/or they suck at marketing their games?Why do lots of indie studios never make it?
Yes, that must be why.Well, in part, because their members do things like publish private conversations.
Horrible, I know.I'll still pass on what I think of your website to our PC side, but the fact that you're so unprofessional that you can't keep a private message private speaks volumes.
Anyway, you are an alright guy, but you tend to take some things personally.
Reply:deadairis said:Man, I don't have to prove this to you. You asked why people are hesitant to cover indies -- here's one reason.
Unprofessionalism -- and then an attitude that there's a right to be unprofessional. Sure, enjoy being unprofessional -- but don't expect anyone to want to work with you. If you don't have the common sense to realize that something sent privately is private, sorry.
The forum seems like decent guys, but you guys seem so happy to be marginalized and left behind that you've come up with a hundred reasons why the behaviors that make it impossible to communicate with the community prove the community was right all along.
Honestly, this is just like misquoting and being offended that someone won't play along -- you can't just misquote someone and then be upset because your made-up quote was what "you thought they meant."
You asked why a major studio can put out some screens and get coverage and your website probably isn't good enough? If it was up to me, I wouldn't give it coverage, because I've seen two instances of deal-breaking unprofessionalism from you in less than a week: misquoting someone and not retracting it; and publishing private conversations at all, let alone not retracting them.
You can think they're okay all day long, but that's the answer. No amount of your reasoning will make it anything else. It might not be what you want professionalism to be, but that won't help you get your game featured -- let alone published.
Reply:VD said:I know. You like stating things. Proving is beneath you.deadairis said:Man, I don't have to prove this to you.
And why is that? Let's say you tell your readers about a game that will later get canceled. So what?You asked why people are hesitant to cover indies -- here's one reason.
Unprofessional is just a fancy word that means nothing UNLESS proved by facts. Posting a private message that contained NOTHING is not unprofessional. Sharing confidential info is.Unprofessionalism -- and then an attitude that there's a right to be unprofessional.
I quoted you correctly twice without getting any reply from you. Then I made a mistake - which I accepted - and you saw an opportunity and went for the "I was misquoted!" kill.Honestly, this is just like misquoting and being offended that someone won't play along -- you can't just misquote someone and then be upset because your made-up quote was what "you thought they meant."
Then don't give it any coverage. Does it look to you like I'm begging for it? I asked you if this stuff would be interesting to your readers. That's all. Also, it's not about me and how big of an ass I am. It's about the game. Nothing else.You asked why a major studio can put out some screens and get coverage and your website probably isn't good enough? If it was up to me, I wouldn't give it coverage, because I've seen two instances of deal-breaking unprofessionalism from you in less than a week: misquoting someone and not retracting it; and publishing private conversations at all, let alone not retracting them.
I have four publishing offers (not that I'm interested in them). Must be figments of my imagination. Btw, you sound kinda bitter, Patrick. Why is that?It might not be what you want professionalism to be, but that won't help you get your game featured -- let alone published.
Reply:deadairis said:What more proof do you need?
I make, every day, decisions about what games to cover. I don't need to ask anyone about this -- the proof is whether I decide to cover or something or not. What more proof do you need as to whether a gaming editor would consider you professional than whether a gaming editor considers you professional?
Honestly, what?
You can claim you're right all you like. But wait: that still doesn't get you coverage.
If I sound bitter, it's because it's depressing to see what appears to be an intelligent community that's so happy losing -- not getting coverage, not having their concerns addressed, not having games made the way they want them made, not having games covered the way they want them covered -- that they've insured they'll always lose.
It's not bitterness, it's the sad revulsion of someone watching someone else cut off their nose to spite their face, and when you try to offer them another option have them yell at you for siding with their face.
But, enjoy being unpromoted, unpublished, and having franchises you care about not give a second glance at what you want -- all the while being "right."
Reply:VD said:*patiently* Patrick, you do realize that what you've just told me is that because you are the one who decides what to cover, you also decide what professional is and isn't. Sounds awfully subjective.deadairis said:I make, every day, decisions about what games to cover. I don't need to ask anyone about this -- the proof is whether I decide to cover or something or not. What more proof do you need as to whether a gaming editor would consider you professional than whether a gaming editor considers you professional?
Honestly, what?
Still doesn't? Shit! I'll perform a ritual suicide after I send you this message.You can claim you're right all you like. But wait: that still doesn't get you coverage.
I already know that I shouldn't bother asking for proof? At best I would get something like: because I, the mighty gaming editor, told you so!If I sound bitter, it's because it's depressing to see what appears to be an intelligent community that's so happy losing -- not getting coverage, not having their concerns addressed, not having games made the way they want them made, not having games covered the way they want them covered -- that they've insured they'll always lose.
Pure gold, Patrick. Thanks.But, enjoy being unpromoted, unpublished, and having franchises you care about not give a second glance at what you want -- all the while being "right."
Reply:deadairis said:Sounds like the last horse finally crossed the finish line.
There's some basic standards to professionalism in the journalism industry -- and, unsurprisingly, someone who works in that industry knows them better than you. Why does this continue to be impossible for you to understand? How can you possibly think you know the industry standards of behavior better than someone in it? No matter how right you think you are -- and the rest of the forum tells you you are -- the industries you're concerned about don't care if you can't meet our standards of behaviour. And if you're just too happy being right to accept information about how you can, I don't know, get coverage for your game ever, what's your goal? Being right, or making your game a success?
Why would I trick you about professional standards? Do you really think that's how anyone actually operates?
And as for what get's covered? It is subjective. Why does that surprise you? There's not a sign in sheet where you're guaranteed coverage. You need to be able to show that you aren't too stupid to talk to if anyone is going to talk to you -- and that's where the standards of professionalism come in.
Don't believe me? No skin off of my nose, man. Enjoy being right.
As for the rest...well, enjoy being right, man. I'm sure the Fallout you guys want will get made...anyyyy day now.
Any day now.
Reply:VD said:Did I say that? Or you are trying to win again by pretending I said or implied something I didn't?deadairis said:Why does this continue to be impossible for you to understand? How can you possibly think you know the industry standards of behavior better than someone in it?
Unlike you, I'm not very concerned with "being right" all the time. I want the game to be successful, obviouslyBeing right, or making your game a success?
Again, did I say that? I said that professional standards are a very subjective thing and what one person in the same industry finds unacceptable, another may find very acceptable.Why would I trick you about professional standards? Do you really think that's how anyone actually operates?
It doesn't.And as for what get's covered? It is subjective. Why does that surprise you?
Did I come into your office demanding coverage?There's not a sign in sheet where you're guaranteed coverage.
You need to be able to show that you aren't too stupid to talk to if anyone is going to talk to you...
I thank you for the valuable life lesson.
Reply:deadairis said:You're trying to claim that I can't simply tell you the industry standards without proving them. That implies that yes, you know better. So, yes, you did.
But someone in the industry told you what a given standard is and you simply said that I was wrong. Why would you possibly know better than me?
No, but you stated that who gets coverage is subjective, as if that was anything but an idiot's complaint.
Reply:VD said:What a load of crap. For someone who complained about being misquoted, you've managed to distort every point I made and replace it with something stupid, which then you eagerly attacked.deadairis said:<snip>
Anyway, I guess there is no reason to keep arguing back and forth. Anyway, I don't really care whether you give the game some coverage or not. You can even go ahead and bitch about how unprofessional the Codex is and me in particular. I honestly don't care. However, I'd like to invite you to stay and post, assuming your massive ego can accept this proposition.
Best wishes and all that.
Reply:deadairis said:See, how do I have the massive ego for presuming to know the standards of my own industry?
Honestly, how can you even think that, and not "man, I know this guy's industry better than he does...wait, no he probably does. I'm suffering from massive ego issues!"
I'll be happy to stay and post, remove the weasel tag.
Reply:VD said:No, you have the massive ego for thinking that you are always right and running away when you got the "weasel" tag, which was harmless and humorous.deadairis said:See, how do I have the massive ego for presuming to know the standards of my own industry?
I didn't give it to you, so I'm not the one to remove it. I'll pass on your request though.I'll be happy to stay and post, remove the weasel tag.
Reply:deadairis said:But, you're asking me to prove I'm right on things like "how does the industry work?" "How can you possibly know more than us?"
I know how the industry works because I work in it.
I know more than you guys do because that's my job.
I don't have to prove it. Accept it at face value or have one more member of the journalistic and publishing communities write off the hardcore as too happy proving each other right to be of any value to anyone but themselves.
Reply:VD said:I never asked you these questions.deadairis said:But, you're asking me to prove I'm right on things like "how does the industry work?" "How can you possibly know more than us?"
Great. Now, I know you gonna love it, but guess what? That's my job too. I personally know many developers, I was invited to GDC and E3 (not as a friend, but as a journalist), including special presentations for limited audience. I interviewed Bioware, Obsidian, Piranha Bites, Radon Lab, and other less known developers. A lot of developers visit the Codex quite often. In other words, there is no need to so arrogant around these parts.I know how the industry works because I work in it.
I know more than you guys do because that's my job.
I never get tired of reading this. Post it again!I don't have to prove it.
Like we give a damn. You have my permission to write off anything that makes you happy.Accept it at face value or have one more member of the journalistic and publishing communities write off the hardcore as too happy proving each other right to be of any value to anyone but themselves.
deadairis said:You: "Vice President, Sales & Marketing in a 500-employee company. Will be 37 in September. Was it enlightening enough for you?"
You: I was invited to GDC and E3 (not as a friend, but as a journalist)
So, you're a journalist? Right now? We're in the same job?
Or are you in Sales and Marketing, right now?
Honestly, how can you waive the "oh no, arrogance!" flag when you're defending misquoting someone and making private messages public?
Which company are you a journalist/Vice President for?
And are you the VP of Sales & Marketing, or are you a journalist?
Reply:VD said:I interview developers and write reviews and articles in my free time. As a hobby. If that's not journalism, I don't know what is.deadairis said:You: "Vice President, Sales & Marketing in a 500-employee company. Will be 37 in September. Was it enlightening enough for you?"
You: I was invited to GDC and E3 (not as a friend, but as a journalist)
So, you're a journalist? Right now?
That's my full time job at the moment.Or are you in Sales and Marketing, right now?
I simply explained my position. Wouldn't call that arrogance.Honestly, how can you waive the "oh no, arrogance!" flag when you're defending misquoting someone and making private messages public?
Can I be both or there are rules for that too. Or wait, I'm also a game developer.Which company are you a journalist/Vice President for?
And are you the VP of Sales & Marketing, or are you a journalist?
Reply:deadairis said:Ahh, so you're not a professional journalist. It is NOT your profession, or job?
Let's see what you said about journalism:
"Great. Now, I know you gonna love it, but guess what? That's my job too. "
"job: occupation: the principal activity in your life that you do to earn money"
"(Sales and Marketing) 's my full time job at the moment."
Really? So, journalisms not your job. But you just told me it was...
Guess who just got caught in a bald-faced lie?
So, the rules that apply too professionals might not be something you actually know very well, huh?
"I interview developers and write reviews and articles in my free time. As a hobby. If that's not journalism, I don't know what is."
It's amateur journalism, with no responsibility or accountability.
The issue isn't that you're getting paid; the issue is that you have no one to hold you to basic standards.
Such as not claiming something is your job when it's a lie.
"I simply explained my position. Wouldn't call that arrogance."
Your position goes contrary to the standards of the journalistic community, the academic community, and at the very least, the financial and entertainment industry communities. You lied about having a job as a journalist.
So, you don't think it's arrogant to hold to your position for no reason other than you think you're right, or to lie bald-faced?
What would you think is arrogant?
VD said:*shakes head* Have you not heard of volunteer jobs? Of people doing something in their free time like helping poor, providing information, helping with political campaigns, dealing with shelter animals? Yeah, sure, you caught me in a bald-faced lie....deadairis said:Ahh, so you're not a professional journalist. It is NOT your profession, or job?
Let's see what you said about journalism:
"Great. Now, I know you gonna love it, but guess what? That's my job too. "
"job: occupation: the principal activity in your life that you do to earn money"
"(Sales and Marketing) 's my full time job at the moment."
Really? So, journalisms not your job. But you just told me it was...
Guess who just got caught in a bald-faced lie?
The highlight is mine.It's amateur journalism, with no responsibility or accountability.
Patrick, at this point I have no choice but to assume that you are an idiot. Have yourself a great day."I simply explained my position. Wouldn't call that arrogance."
Your position goes contrary to the standards of the journalistic community, the academic community, and at the very least, the financial and entertainment industry communities. You lied about having a job as a journalist.