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Interview A Decadent Interview at RPG Dot

galsiah

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Screaming_life said:
Great interview VD, stay downbeat, it's refreshing.
True, but preaching to the converted isn't going to create many new converts. I'd like to think that what codexers want from an interview is substance over style: facts, specifics and details. Applauding VD for his down-beat style is still focusing on style.

In any case, opinion is much more valid in a developer interview than in a review. A reviewer's opinion's are irrelevant, but a developer's opinion's (even a "We think this is great") can help build up a picture of that developer's outlook, and therefore give an indication what the rest of the game might be like.

Everyone here has a good idea what VD likes / dislikes, and what he's aiming for with AoD. We also know that VD doesn't make a habit of going wild over everything he talks about. The general gaming public do not know these things. The absense of positive exclamations can come accross (perhaps incorrectly) as a lack of enthusiasm - again, not a problem if you know VD's writing style, but not all potential players do.

I'd have thought that substance would be enough to keep codexers interested, and that style could be used pragmatically to entice the yet-to-be-enlightened. I'm not suggesting that VD write anything he's not comfortable with, but he wouldn't be in this situation without a truckload of enthusiasm for RPGs. It wouldn't hurt to let some of it show in more obvious ways, even if it's outside his usual MO.
 

Hazelnut

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Zomg said:
Hazelnut said:
Zomg - can you be a bit more specific? As an english speaker with some reasonable aptitude for the language, I find that the dialogues I read seemed fine. I didn't spend much time, just reading the first 6 fairly quickly. So, what am I missing here?

Unfortunately I'm judging just by an intuitive prose "ear" rather than by objective measures. For example, in this dialogue Lucius' second sentence is improperly compounded and just reads wrong somehow. A good English writer would be able to break those problems down quickly and understand the problems objectively where I'm only sensing it. Of course, if it's unfeasible, it's unfeasible, and that's that.

Okay - I agree that one, in particular, does read quite strangely. It's pretty abrupt and I don't think anyone would actually speak like that, but as text in a game it's okay I think. I got the impression that you were inferring that VD was not a native english speaker in your first post (which could be true for all I know) and that the problems were related to that, which they're not. It's just the writing of dialogue, or how someone would actually speak, thing. It can largely be a matter of style, and it may actually benefit from consistancy thoughout the game.. maybe?

I've just realised I don't really have a point.. oh noes I've gone all kingspamrade :shock:

Anyway, I have a feeling I now know what my christmas pressie might be. :D
 

Nutcracker

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How many lines of dialogue are there in the game VD? I'm sure it wouldn't take THAT long for one or two people to go through and polish it up a little. Most of the "errors" could probably easily be fixed by just manipulating the punctuation and word order - it wouldnt need a comprehensive rewrite.
 

Dhruin

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elander_ said:
It's a shame the game isn't team turn-base.

Huh? You mean party-based?

I do think some of the dialogues could be polished but I'm quite excited, overall. Really looking forward to a game that honestly plays differently with diverse character builds.

On the hype thing...I dunno why some of you are surprised at the tone taken when this site overeacts to other hype so regularly. The reason it doesn't bother me so much is I see how hard itis to break through to people's conciousness without next-gen grafix. And even then they don't listen without a license behind. How many people didn't pay any attention to The Witcher? "Looks like a Diablo clone". Then 3 years later "hey - this thing has some actual choices in it. Cool!". Duh. They've been saying that over and over and putting out videos - but noone listens.

When the interview link comes up at Bluesnews, 100 people will click on it. If it were NWN2, it would be 2000. That's why PR people hype.
 

galsiah

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I've just realised I don't really have a point.. oh noes I've gone all kingspamrade :shock:
Well I'm probably about to repeat myself, if it makes you feel any better.

I got the impression that you were inferring that VD was not a native english speaker in your first post (which could be true for all I know)
He's not, though you'd rarely know it.

It's pretty abrupt and I don't think anyone would actually speak like that, but as text in a game it's okay I think.
It's hardly a show stopper, but it does get in the way. I'd probably need to read the sentence twice due to the odd punctuation so that I got the sense right. As soon as players need to read things twice (for gramatical reasons), they are focusing on sentence structure, rather than the game, which can't be good.
It's also more than a written vs spoken issue - the sentence is not structured in a logical way, irrespective.

Personally I'd have guessed that the case in point was a simple typo where the writer meant to hit "." and hit "," instead. I.e., that the intention was:
Perhaps, you can help me. I have a rare piece of ore here, can you tell me what it is?

Which wouldn't be so bad. I might be wrong, of course.
The commas still aren't where I would put them, but that could perhaps be an indication of the way the line is spoken - i.e. that it is:
Perhaps [pauses to think] you can help me.
I have a rare piece of ore here [short pause] can you tell me what it is?

The only glaring error is the comma between "me" and "I". The other things are just not how I'd have done them, but might have been done for a reason. [as a player, I would assume that the comma after "perhaps" meant that a pause in the character's speech were intended]

It can largely be a matter of style, and it may actually benefit from consistancy thoughout the game.. maybe?
That's an issue, which is why editors need to advise writers on alterations, rather than to make changes themselves. If changes were made, then (apart from glaring and obvious errors), VD would need to make them himself to keep the style consistent and as intended. Moving all the writing to gramatically-correct-but-soulless would not be progress.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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galsiah said:
Is it really impossible though VD? So long as you stick to changing only style / wording, and leaving the structure identical, it's an isolated change (though a large one, granted). Perhaps you wouldn't get any takers, but it couldn't hurt to look for an English writer / editor / proofreader could it?
It's more complicated than that. I would need to be involved and go over every word that's being changed. Don't get me wrong, if I see a clear mistake or a fucked up sentence like that example that's been pointed out, I won't argue, but it usually takes more than that and there is no shortage of various suggestions that need to be considered, and THAT would take a LOT of time. Yes, I did discuss several dialigues with quite a few people with good English, so I have an idea of what to expect.

On the interview, I liked it in general, but I agree that a bit of PR isn't necessarily a bad thing.
PR, the way I see, is providing honest information about a game, explaining and showing different mechanics, not acting all hyper and retarded.

These people might not immediately see the benefits of the non-groundbreaking, non-reinvented, non-redefined systems you are using.
Which is why I explained game mechanics in many details. At this point they are either intrigued and interested or confused because the interview didn't tell them how awesome the game is. I welcome the former, but not sure that the game would appeal to the latter.

Still, I thank you for your thoughts, and I'll consider them for next "performance".

Also, your Philosophy:
"If what you do is meaningless, if people don't react to your actions, if you need to imagine consequences or that someone cares, the game is boring, at least, in my opinion."

Is basically saying "We think darkness sucks", rather than "We're lighting a candle", or even "Darkness sucks, so we're lighting a candle." Perhaps you think it's obvious that you're in favour of candles because you're against darkness. However, I think you could put the emphasis more on the positive - after all, that's where you're different from most codexers: you are doing more than just grumbling about how bad things are.
Good point.
 

Claw

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Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Vault Dweller said:
Anyway, the ancient civilization with powers doesn't come back in any way, you don't find/acquire those powers, just like you don't learn how to make a nuke or find one in Fallout. Hope that helps.
You do find a nuke in Fallout, though.
 

DarkUnderlord

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Nutcracker said:
Isn't that VD's game?
Yes, yes it is.

Vault Dweller said:
DarkUnderlord said:
While I'm here, spot the horrible spelling error in this quote plugged on the company's website: <blockquote>"That kind of things is common here. Conspiracies and assassinations and naked power-grabs. All the fun of decadence."
- Glen Cook, The Black Company
Only one error? I'm sure you didn't look hard enough. Why don't you give it another try and maybe dedicate an entire news post to "horrible spelling errors"? That would be a blast!
SERVE'S YOU RIGHT FOR NOT POSTING IT YOUR LAZY SELF!
 

FrancoTAU

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Vault Dweller said:
PR, the way I see, is providing honest information about a game, explaining and showing different mechanics, not acting all hyper and retarded.

You can't do both at the same time? I don't think any of us are trying to tell ya to go all typical PR bullshit fluff guy. You have to be a bit of a salesman in ya though.
 

Atrokkus

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2/ Agree with the others, try to be a bit more 'upbeat' in interviews.
His interviews are informative (but not informative enough heh). That's all I need.

PLus, he's not aiming to seduce the major RPGdot audience which was, to put it very mildly, sceptical of the project from the very start.

COncerning the language in dialogs: I daresay that you should also consider the fact that some NPCs are not supposed to speak polished, academic-level english. Again, that's a question of stylistics and game design.
 

Mefi

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I think VD got the tone spot on. Positive about what makes his game special, a little humour and lots of detail on his game. Too much happy spin and people (outside of the codex) will think he's mad to be so upbeat about a game which is not using the very latest of video technology.

Manage expectations, state the facts and intrigue more than hyperbole your way to dissatisfaction. He's practising what he preaches in his news posts. And I think it's definitely the way forward. This game is not going to make him a millionaire but if it gets to the right audience it will at least recoup his money and help fund any further adventures in developer land. And the audience he is aiming at is going to be one with quite a mature view of the RPG genre who will respond far more positively to an honest overview of the game devoid of the usual developer bullshit.

Just my twopenniworth.
 

galsiah

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First I'd like to make clear again that I think AoD looks like it'll be very good - if not perfect. The criticisms I'm making are in an effort to point out where it might be slightly improved, and how it might (IMO) be effectively "hyped".

His interviews are informative (but not informative enough heh). That's all I need.
Sure. That's all you need, that's all I need. We're satisfied so long as there is substance. So why not aim the style at a broader audience? If it doesn't appeal to them, you've lost nothing, since codexers etc. still get their substance. If it does appeal to them you gain.

Whether a more up-beat, positive, mild "hype" style would have wider appeal is debatable, but I think that it would. Clearly I'm not suggesting anything silly, but I think a mild move in that direction would do no harm, and possibly help.

PLus, he's not aiming to seduce the major RPGdot audience which was, to put it very mildly, sceptical of the project from the very start.
I don't think there is one "RPGdot audience", any more than there is one codex hive mind. Clearly RPGdot is not the place to go overboard with hype, but again, no-one is suggesting that. Obvious enthusiasm backed up by fact and reasoned argument is not a bad thing.

Concerning the language in dialogs: I daresay that you should also consider the fact that some NPCs are not supposed to speak polished, academic-level english. Again, that's a question of stylistics and game design.
Sure - in some places that applies, in others it doesn't. Trying to excuse all mistakes by suggesting that "There's no reason why people might not talk like that." is just silly. The success / failure of the dialogue lies in its effect on the player. If the player is left confused by grammar, mislead by poor word choice, or put off by the use of odd phrasing, then that is not good. Whether or not the NPC would have talked in that way is irrelevant.

You can defend "incorrect" grammar / word choice etc. where it is used consciously and consistently (e.g. Planescape: Torment). Defending one-off mistakes or poor phrasing on the same basis is silly.

I think VD got the tone spot on. Positive about what makes his game special, a little humour and lots of detail on his game.
He certainly gave a load of detail, but how was he "positive"? It's entirely description - good, interesting description, but still description. It seems positive because it's a description of something we like, but it's really no more positive than is a label saying "Chocolate Ice-cream".

There's next to nothing in there about why VD wanted to make that sort of game, or why he designed feature X in such and such a way. The reader is always left to draw his own conclusions. That's fine for codexers who have played many RPGs, and share similar views on them, since it is obvious. It's not obvious to everyone.

Here's a quote from the interview:
...the fall of the Roman Empire as a great reference material...
That's the only use of the word "great" [other than "great sword"] in the entire thing. VD sounds more enthusiastic about his reference material than about his game.

Too much happy spin and people (outside of the codex) will think he's mad to be so upbeat about a game which is not using the very latest of video technology.
Will they? I think you are polarising things. People who can only handle enthusiasm when applied to video technology really aren't going to buy this game. That extreme (a popular extreme, but still an extreme) is not worth aiming at, but there is a significant middle ground between traditional RPG enthusiasts and FPS graphics junkies.
Most people respond positively to a degree of enthusiasm, so long as it is backed up by a few facts and arguments. Genuine enthusiasm is by far the most effective - it seems mad not to use it.

Manage expectations, state the facts and intrigue more than hyperbole your way to dissatisfaction. He's practising what he preaches in his news posts.
Manage expectations? Whose? Most people know nothing about AoD. There is no expectation. Before you can manage expectations, you need to increase awareness. To do that you need to do more than hand out reference manuals and expect people to see how wonderful everthing is for themselves.

I'm not suggesting this sort of thing:
"The graphics are absolutely amazing - just wait until you see them."
That's pointless hyperbole.

I'm suggesting this sort of thing:
"We went for feature X because we wanted to emphasize Y and Z. This is a great way to create interesting gameplay because ... and ... [give example situation]"

At the moment it's more like:
"AoD has X, so there's a lot of Y and Z. So for instance [give example situation]"


For example, in the interview:
Iron Tower: The gameworld is very reactive. Everything you do affects someone or something and has consequences...
There's a golden opportunity to say why choice with consequence is important, why it's a focus in the design of AoD, and why it makes gameplay more interesting / involving. The opportunity isn't taken.

To be fair, VD does cover that issue in the "Philosophy" section, but as I've already mentioned, he takes a "Lack of consequence is shit" approach, rather than a "Consequence is great" approach. The latter would have been a little more inspiring.

And the audience he is aiming at is going to be one with quite a mature view of the RPG genre who will respond far more positively to an honest overview of the game devoid of the usual developer bullshit.
Mainly I agree with this, but I'm not advocating the usual developer bullshit. I think VD's interview was the best and most informative I've seen in some time. That doesn't make it perfect.

Also, I'd question the notion that the audience needs to have a "mature view of the RPG genre". They don't need to have any view of the RPG genre. Quite a few people might try AoD without having tried many RPGs, simply because it's shareware. A significant number of young people might be on the cusp of developing a "mature view of the RPG genre" - why not tell them why they'll enjoy it, rather than just giving them the facts and hoping they'll work it out for themselves?
 

Atrokkus

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What I'm looking for in an interview is the information about the game features. If I don't like the described feature, I WOULDN'T CARE if it's described in the most eloquent and enticing way, it'd be just milk and water to me.

You can defend "incorrect" grammar / word choice etc. where it is used consciously and consistently (e.g. Planescape: Torment). Defending one-off mistakes or poor phrasing on the same basis is silly.
Of course.
 

Old Scratch

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Honestly, I thought VD was full of shit when I recall the project being mentioned on these forums. The initial screenshots(2D version) looked like garbage and it sounded like too large of an undertaking to end up being worthwhile. For a little indie game though, it's looking rather impressive now.

Go, go DIY ethos!
 

galsiah

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metallix said:
If I don't like the described feature, I WOULDN'T CARE if it's described in the most eloquent and enticing way.
Sure.
However, first, we're not talking about you or me - we're talking about people who are probably less well informed on RPGs in general, and who have spent less time thinking about exactly what they like / don't like in an RPG.

Second, style won't turn something someone dislikes into something they like. It might make them more likely to take notice of the things they'll end up liking, and to understand that they'll like them. It's just a way to flag up features and to say "This is important and interesting because X, Y and Z". If you only provide the information, you have the equivalent of a reference manual - useful in the right hands, but not for beginners, and rarely inspiring.

Most people fare better with a beginners' guide than with a reference manual, since most people don't have a clear understanding of exactly what is important, and why.
 

Llyranor

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I didn't see anything wrong in that interview.

Honestly, if someone's going to be shallow and turn away from the game because of lack of PR fluff, do you really think there's an even remote possibility they consist of the audience this game is for? lol ugly graphix lol 2 much txt my head hurts 2 many sk1lz HAHA TEH AGE OF DECADNECE WHUT A STUPID NAME WHO CAM UP WIT TAHT LMAO I'M GONNA MURDER YOU AND UR MUM

If anything, I would have found the PR crap a bit hypocritical, and - heck - *less* appealing.

And I do agree that some of the dialogue is a bit off, actually. The writing/storytelling is usually the *most* important part of RPGs for more (more than, ironically, roleplaying in and of itself - though, of course, mutual exclusion is a moot point). In this case, though, the roleplaying potential seems to make up for it. I'll have to play through the shareware first to see how I feel about it ultimately.
 

Mefi

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It's 6.15 am and I'm out of whisky. Which means I can't be arsed dissecting galsiah's post line by line. Some general thoughts:

Successful advertising is getting your product noticed by the people who will use it. At a certain level, it is enough merely to state the facts about your product. This implies confidence in your product. Just for an example, how about the Lexus print ad campaign?

If you want a more in depth interview on the whys and wherefores, you've got to have a reviewer who wants to ask those questions. The review at rpgdot was just a headsup interview not a detailed analysis of the design process. [edit: sorry that sounds like I'm doing down dhruin - I'm not. This was a fine 'new developer/new product' interview.] I'm sure a follow up interview would cover any further details. It also leaves room for another interviewer to come in and ask those questions as the basics have been covered. You no longer need to start from scratch with each interview about a game.

Fair point about positive language. But then VD saying "it's wonderful" is going to convince no-one. Him citing an example of how the game will work is much more effective.

Point about being overly enthusiastic is that otherwise VD will look like someone out of touch with reality. His game is not going to appeal to a large section of the current market. It isn't an innovative game in the sense that is doing something 'new'. It's a return to a form of RPG which got lost somewhere after PS:T. Being overly enthusiastic would hit the wrong note. Better to be sensible and let the reader decide whether the game is going to appeal. Low-key for teh win. But there is room for the developer to share their enthusiasm for a product. I just don't think this interview was that place.

Managing expectations is about not raising hopes or making promises you can't keep. A low-key marketing campaign is often far more effective than a high-tempo "we're so great" one. The expectations themselves are those of anyone who reads the interview and is tempted to buy the game. Low-key means that they know that if VD says something it is going to be there and that they have fair warning if some aspects will not compare to a major developer's work.

I sincerely think that people who buy this game are going to have a mature view of RPGs. They are going to be people looking for a roleplaying experience which is aided by character progression and impact on the game world. It's not defined by age btw. Just in what you expect from a game.

Word of mouth is far more powerful than VD's interviews in raising awareness of the game to those who might be interested but aren't aficinados of the genre. People don't just try games because they are shareware - there's a word of mouth process that goes on. Proof? When was the last time you bought a shareware title you had never heard of before playing it? You needed to be aware of it in order to try it, so you had some idea of what you were getting.

Pimp this game. Raise awareness of it. If you're convinced it's going to be good, spread the word. Create a buzz around it away from the codex which will contrast ever so nicely with VD's honest and frank style. That's what I'd be doing if I was heading a marketing campaign for AoD. Lots of little posts referencing it in every forum I can think of where people might be interested.

Meh, I'm rambling. I'll probably be less lucid but more to the point when the hangover kicks in.
 

Dhruin

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metallix said:
PLus, he's not aiming to seduce the major RPGdot audience which was, to put it very mildly, sceptical of the project from the very start.

You're way of base, Metallix. The two? three? five? people who got carried away against VD a few months back are utterly insignificant compared to the thousands of people who read RPGDot every day without commenting. Readers of RPG Codex are probably largely convinced - it's exactly the larger and broader but still RPG-focused audience at RPGDot he wants to expose the game to.
 

Dhruin

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Llyranor said:
Honestly, if someone's going to be shallow and turn away from the game because of lack of PR fluff, do you really think there's an even remote possibility they consist of the audience this game is for?

Yes, because people don't necessarily pay that much attention and sometimes you need to break through. Plenty of people glance at a few lines and don't read the whole thing (or even a large part of it). That's not to say I thought VD didn't write good responses... but sometimes a little hype breaks through.
 

Atrokkus

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You're way of base, Metallix. The two? three? five? people who got carried away against VD a few months back are utterly insignificant compared to the thousands of people who read RPGDot every day without commenting. Readers of RPG Codex are probably largely convinced - it's exactly the larger and broader but still RPG-focused audience at RPGDot he wants to expose the game to.
I have no quarrel with your site, and with you especially, so dont take it personally, we're colleagues after all. However, it would be naieve of you to believe that there are only 5 or 4 people who have a very mainstream taste when it comes to RPGs, who would rather play a good action-rpg, or something else that allows for less reading and more action. That doesn't qualify them as morons, no, but that kind of sets them away from the target audience of AoD.
And what i meant was that those people wouldn't be any more impressed, even if you were. Of course, RPGDot has a rather large contingent that would qualify as target audience of AoD, but still it is greately outnumbered, alas.
 

Llyranor

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Well, if the in-game examples VD gave don't speak for themselves, would some PR really do any better? If I weren't going to read the whole interview in the first place, seeing words like 'epic' or 'immersive' or 'trust me' wouldn't change my mind. Listing actual options you'd have in getting through that gate is far more powerful in showcasing what the game is about.

In any case, yeah, word of mouth seems like it *could* make or break the game. Spread the word.
 

galsiah

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Fair point about positive language. But then VD saying "it's wonderful" is going to convince no-one. Him citing an example of how the game will work is much more effective.
Sure, but it's not a choice - he can easily do both. Neither is there a word limit on RPGdot interviews (I presume), so he doesn't need to take out any of the substance to put in a little opinion / motivation / enthusiasm.

I'm not suggesting going from 0% hype to 100%, just to maybe 10% - and that's an extra 10%: there's no need to remove any substance.

But there is room for the developer to share their enthusiasm for a product. I just don't think this interview was that place.
Where if not in an interview? An interview is with a person - it's not a fact sheet. Why interview someone unless you want their opinion. If you mean that opinions should come not in this interview, but in a later one, I disagree. I think an overall vision / motivation should come early, followed (or accompanied) by detailed facts, followed (possibly) by in depth design decision questions...

Most people aren't first interested by a collection of facts, but by the overall vision. VD doesn't say much at all about that. Also, people are interested in people. Reading that interview doesn't give much of an idea of what VD thinks, since it's mainly an extended fact sheet. When people think about Spore, they think about Will Wright and about the overall concept / vision. It's more memorable when there's a guy (or girl) and a vision, rather than just a fact sheet.
 

Volourn

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Game over.

Now get this game in stores!

I have the perfect publisher - Atari!!!!

They are desperate for potential blockbusters, afterall!
 

Dhruin

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metallix said:
I have no quarrel with your site, and with you especially, so dont take it personally, we're colleagues after all. However, it would be naieve of you to believe that there are only 5 or 4 people who have a very mainstream taste when it comes to RPGs, who would rather play a good action-rpg, or something else that allows for less reading and more action. That doesn't qualify them as morons, no, but that kind of sets them away from the target audience of AoD.
And what i meant was that those people wouldn't be any more impressed, even if you were. Of course, RPGDot has a rather large contingent that would qualify as target audience of AoD, but still it is greately outnumbered, alas.

Just to be clear - there's no quarrel and I'm not taking anything personally - no problem here at all; just a discussion.

The 5 people I was referring to were the vocal guest's who had a go at VD when we "announced" the game -maybe we misunderstood each other. Yes, we have a broader readership and many no doubt prefer action/RPGs or whatever - but I think you underestimate how many "hardcore" readers visit our site. Even if half or 80% or whatever aren't interested, that still leaves a couple thousand daily readers to target. The readers here are (generally) already sold.

I'm sure if you think about it, you've seen posts here where people still say "is Avernum any good? I haven't played any of Spiderweb's games..." Vogel is as famous as it gets in indie cRPGs, you can download a free demo of all of his games to try for yourself and some people still don't pay attention until something suddenly piques their interest. Maybe someone dislikes turn-based games and doesn't like Romanised settings so they haven't paid attention to AoD but suddenly they notice the strong crafting, which they love (or whatever). You guys will all try the demo...Iron Tower needs (for the best sales) to convince a bigger audience to give it a go.

Anyway, I thought his answers were fine but a little "hype" can convince some people.
 

Atrokkus

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Joined
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Bah.
His jokes alone would picque my interest, if I wasn't interested in it before!


Okay, lets stop arguing and just see the comments to the interview on rpgdot, shall we?
 

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