Incline Action RPGs - are they a valid form of Role-playing Videogames?

[Lonely Vazdru]

Oh boy this topic is always a bag of fun.

No, it is not.

 

[Spukrian]

First, thanks for a well written post.

A few comments:

• Highly complex Gameplay systems and Simulationist mechanics
  • let's face it, most people don't like math and that's one reason why TTRPGs systems use simple math, it's makes the game more accessible for a wider audience - other reasons being: it speeds up gameplay by minimizing downtime, it keeps the focus on the storytelling, it promotes a clear and consistent structure, it even helps maintain adequate game balance ;
  • this simplicity is fundamental in enabling TTRPGs to thrive - however, the evident drawback is that it imposes limitations on the complexity of the Gameplay and Simulation components ;
  • as it so happens, computers excel in mathematics, capable of accurately executing thousands of calculations in a split second ;
  • consequently, RPVGs are capable of systems and mechanics of exceptional intricacy, enabling Gameplay and Simulation experiences that are simply not possible in Tabletop ;
  • on a side note, this format also more easily permits the existence of "esoteric" systems - because players are not responsible for determining the math, and might even have no way of knowing the inner mechanical workings of these systems.

I would love having more cRPGs with more simulated systems. I'd say the more simulated systems there is, the better most types of games will be.

But... I understand why we aren't getting games like that.

1. Designing and implementing simulated systems increases the workload a great deal, is it really worth the effort from the developers' point of view? Most likely the developers are going to do whatever way is easiest/fastest to implement the gameplay they want to focus on. Also designing good simulated systems requires a little bit of thinking outside the box, a very rare skill.

2. Most cRPG players don't want more simulated systems. They want to have the abstractions that were present in Pen & Paper. They want to have the 2-3 Canned Solutions to every quest and encounter, the Canned Solutions being either Combat, Stealth, Diplomacy, That One Rare Occasion Where You Use Your Repair/Medicine/Whatever Skill or That One Time You Could Use Magic Outside Of Combat.

Finally, regarding the argument of: " The success of the PC's actions is primarily determined by Player "skill" and not mathematical abstractions. ".

This argument always struck me as arbitrary and nonsensical.

It's arbitrary and nonsensical beacause it's a Strawman Argument.

The actual argument is that "In cRPGs, success in combat should NOT be dependent on the Player's Twitch Reflexes and Hand-To-Eye Coordination".

That said, I can agree with you up to a point. I remember being annoyed in Planescape Torment when I was presented with a riddle that I figured out the answer to, but I couldn't answer it because the Nameless One didn't have enough Wisdom or Intelligence...

Deus Ex is one of the best games ever made and I don't think that it really matter if it's considered to be a cRPG or not.

 

[grimer]

yea bc this is what role playing is about

 

[DJOGamer PT]

First, thanks for a well written post.

This is a topic I've been meaning to write an effort post for some time.

Designing and implementing simulated systems increases the workload a great deal, is it really worth the effort from the developers' point of view?

Well, that certainly depends on the type of RPG experience the devs are aiming for (and obviously their capacity).
If the money/time/staff isn't enough to implement some highly dynamic system, then I think everyone can understand that it is more sensible to compromise the ambition of the project in order to focus on the fundamental elements.
But if the devs are working on a type of videogame that is well understood to benefit from simulationist elements (for example, a sandbox project), then yes, those elements at least merit serious consideration.

Most cRPG players don't want more simulated systems. They want to have the abstractions that were present in Pen & Paper. They want to have the 2-3 Canned Solutions to every quest and encounter

If you're talking about RPVG players in general, then I have to disagree with you on this.

Frostfall is one of the most popular (and honestly one of the best) Skyrim mods.
A lot of the charm of classic Gothic games to this day stems from their attention to detail in their game world simulation.
Games like Dwarf Fortress, Caves of Qud and Unreal World, which are basically pure simulation, have a very dedicated audience that, even if niche, still surpasses those of plenty of classic RPVGs
And frankly, the most interesting RPVGs in the indie scene right now are generally those with a healthy dose of experimentation with simulated systems.
Then on the other side of the spectrum, you have massive AAA games like Zelda BotW and RDR2, which garnered huge success in large part due to their emphasis on simulationist elements.
Even on AAA you have successes like Death Stranding because of its highly autistic walking simulation.

Clearly, there's a considerable enough audience that desires games that experiment with simulated systems. Desire that most RPVG devs don't tap because, like you said, it's easier to just give them usual clichéd approaches.
And so the "ideal" that RPVGs should be digital analogues of PnP systems keeps sabotaging their potential... Even when we have proof that these systems can work wonderfully with more classic RPG elements and still be successful games.

It's arbitrary and nonsensical beacause it's a Strawman Argument.

Hardly. That's the argument I've read countless times.

The actual argument is that "In cRPGs, success in combat should NOT be dependent on the Player's Twitch Reflexes and Hand-To-Eye Coordination".

This argument is still arbitrary and nonsensical...

Where is this "rule" written? What even is the logic behind it? Why can't the success of a combat action also be partly dependent on the player's reflexes and visual-motor coordination? How does this go against the spirit of Role-playing?

 

[Fedora Master]

No branching paths/CNC = Not an RPG

 

[mediocrepoet]

yea bc this is what role playing is about

Buddy, that's roll playing.

 

[Ol' Willy]

While Deus Ex is a great game, it's not an RPG

 

[Ol' Willy]

Deus Ex is the same, it's not a good shooter, it's not a great stealth game and it's not much in terms of RPG clout.

Deus Ex, together with Thief, System Shock and Hitman belongs to some different particular genre...

 

[Ol' Willy]

Probably the best definition of "action-RPG" is Morrowind

And how many people complained about its combat system

 

[Ol' Willy]

Just out of curiosity, how many of these do you have? I've seen you post "CYOA is the new RPG" and "Tactics is the new RPG" several times, now "Action is the new RPG"...
In response to Tyranicon's erotica RPGs, will you next make a "Porn is the new RPG"?

In order of creation:

Spoiler

Spoiler

1. Disco Elysium
2. Dungeon of Naheulbeuk
3. Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children
4. Suzerain
5. Urtuk
6. Jagged Alliance 3
7. Elden Ring
8. Kenshi
9. Dragon's Dogma II

Tactics is actually the old RPG.

Because first there were wargames. And then wise men tried to lower the scale, instead of commanding armies or divisions to shift focus to smaller units. I bet the first proto-RPGs were low scale wargames where players took command of smol commando units. And then wise men though of, what if we allow leading our commando units through several battles, where they could gain experience and improve their skills? And thus, the RPG was born

 

[Zarniwoop]

While Deus Ex is a great game, it's not an RPG

That isn't a problem for the mighty "RPG" Codex.

Jagged Alliance 3 won RPGotY and that isn't remotely an RPG either.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Probably the best definition of "action-RPG" is Morrowind

And how many people complained about its combat system

Morrowind is about as much an "action" game as Dungeon Master or Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss; these three subgenres (Real-Time Blobbers, Underworld-likes, and Open World RPGs) all occur in real-time, without separating combat mode from exploration mode, but fundamentally the player is just directing the character to attack, with the rest determined by the character's statistics relative to the enemy's statistics, even including to-hit rolls. The dependency of combat on the player's physical skill is far lower than for Diablo, much less Demon's/Dark Souls and other Action RPGs.

 

[Rieser]

yea bc this is what role playing is about

Elden Ring 4?!

 

[Ol' Willy]

Probably the best definition of "action-RPG" is Morrowind

And how many people complained about its combat system

Morrowind is about as much an "action" game as Dungeon Master or Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss; these three subgenres (Real-Time Blobbers, Underworld-likes, and Open World RPGs) all occur in real-time, without separating combat mode from exploration mode, but fundamentally the player is just directing the character to attack, with the rest determined by the character's statistics relative to the enemy's statistics, even including to-hit rolls. The dependency of combat on the player's physical skill is far lower than for Diablo, much less Demon's/Dark Souls and other Action RPGs.

Thanks for proving my point, Shlomo

 

[Grauken]

RPG Codex determined that Dragon's Dogma was GotY 2016 and Elden Ring was GotY 2022, and it will decide that Dragon's Dogma II is GotY 2024 and Kingdom Come II GotY 2025, so it seems that Action RPGs are indeed RPGs.

don't count your chickens before they hatch

 

[Spukrian]

Frostfall is one of the most popular (and honestly one of the best) Skyrim mods.
A lot of the charm of classic Gothic games to this day stems from their attention to detail in their game world simulation.
Games like Dwarf Fortress, Caves of Qud and Unreal World, which are basically pure simulation, have a very dedicated audience that, even if niche, still surpasses those of plenty of classic RPVGs
And frankly, the most interesting RPVGs in the indie scene right now are generally those with a healthy dose of experimentation with simulated systems.
Then on the other side of the spectrum, you have massive AAA games like Zelda BotW and RDR2, which garnered huge success in large part due to their emphasis on simulationist elements.
Even on AAA you have successes like Death Stranding because of its highly autistic walking simulation

Most of the games you mention aren't what I would call cRPGs. Would you call MineCraft a cRPG?

Clearly, there's a considerable enough audience that desires games that experiment with simulated systems. Desire that most RPVG devs don't tap because, like you said, it's easier to just give them usual clichéd approaches.

These people mostly look for other types of games when they want a systemic/simulationist experience and when they do play cRPGs they want something different. This is because people like to put things into neat little categories so that they know what to expect and how to react. Especially the Marketing people working for the Publisher likes to do this. We all know what happens to systemic/simulationist games when marketing doesn't know what category to put them in...

And so the "ideal" that RPVGs should be digital analogues of PnP systems keeps sabotaging their potential... Even when we have proof that these systems can work wonderfully with more classic RPG elements and still be successful games.

I agree with you there.

The actual argument is that "In cRPGs, success in combat should NOT be dependent on the Player's Twitch Reflexes and Hand-To-Eye Coordination".

This argument is still arbitrary and nonsensical...

Where is this "rule" written? What even is the logic behind it? Why can't the success of a combat action also be partly dependent on the player's reflexes and visual-motor coordination? How does this go against the spirit of Role-playing?

It could also be expressed as "Character Skill, not Player Skill". Back in the olden days I believe it was the consensus among majority of cRPG players, but that might've changed sometime during the last 30 years. As for the why and how this "rule" came about, well, I don't want to speculate about that since I don't fully agree with the sentiment. I'm sure there are some oldtimers here on the Codex that could explain it better than me.