Review ActionTrip reviews Gothic 3 - 79%

[Pegultagol]

I am already anticipating the review.

I half expect some good mention of the game, in a way.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I like the game A LOT.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Looking forward to that review.

I hadn't heard much about the Gothic franchise before I stumbled my way into the Codex. I just bought a new rig, and based on the commentary around here, bought Gothic 3.

Hot damn I am loving it. Amazing game, amazing RPG. With the 1.09 patch I've had no problems (admittedly, I've only been playing this weekend). It reminds me somewhat of Ultima 7, in that its a huge world whose characters don't revolve around you. Where you can just get lost in exploring its intricacies.

VD, do you have any idea what the upper level cap is? So many appealing skills, its hard to choose. Which is a good thing :D

 

[Vault Dweller]

Looking forward to that review.

http://www.rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=137

VD, do you have any idea what the upper level cap is?

I don't think there is such a thing.

So many appealing skills, its hard to choose. Which is a good thing :D

Don't worry, you'll have plenty of skill points, it's a long game.

 

[Faustus]

RPGs always take more power than FPSs. See Bloodlines & Half Life 2 as an example.

TESF-worthy! RGI's right... and VD, you either drunk, or high, or both, or senility is overtaking you.
Your post is just... dumb. Sorry.

There's a lot more silly crap that the AI in an RPG has to keep track of than the AI in a shooter. NPC schedules, factions, how much they like you, etc., whatever. In a shooter it's typically just "I am teh kill at u. oh noe u r liek teh kil me 2 so i go hide behind barels."

So assuming an RPG uses the same level of technology as an FPS, the RPG will run slower. Not that Gothic 3 uses the same technology as *insert latest "ZOMG I TAEKED COVAR SO SMART AM I" FPS*. Just explaining why RPGs run slower than FPSs.

I think performance has a lot to do with the implementation of a given engine technology. I doubt the engine code was exactly the same between HL2 and Bloodlines, but even if it was I don't think you can accurately attribute the performance differences to one being an RPG and the other being a "shooter". I really cannot think of anything that the Bloodlines game could be doing that HL2 didn't have to be doing as well.

You cannot really make the argument that the game system combat calculations take up any significant amount of processing or memory. Those are extremely simple calculations, especially compared to the rest of the things that already go on in both of these games...a drop in the bucket. There was no real NPC scheduling that went on in Bloodlines that I can recall. Both games had NPCs that had seemingly static scripted behaviors. Even if it had the much vaunted scheduling "AI" it wouldn't have been much different. Scheduling is just changing those behavior scripts depending on a time variable and that doesn't seem like much of an overhead to me. As far as npc reactions, any calculations that change an NPC's reaction towards you would be based on a simple value and a conditional logic statement.

Dialogue system and inventory system could be some overhead as far as memory utilization if these systems are cached, but these aren't processing intensive systems at all. I cannot agree with the assertion that the "RPG" version has a lot more going on so that is why it is slower. My opinion is that implementation and optimization are the real factors in this case.

 

[MacD]

Balor...go take a basic computing course, please. RPG's are inherently more taxing to the cpu...all the thing which are kept track of in RPG's (and I'm not even talking about streaming world tech) like schedules, day/night cycles, inventory, attribute versus to hit calculations and the like, the maqny more different weapons, the many more pathfinding operations (a whole level of NPC's versus maybe five to ten at the most in an FPS) and many more things....

An FPS just needs to look good (all on the GPU) and have five to ten computer controlled NPC's running about with a couple of weapons. An rpg does that, plus all of the above (name me one FPS asifdde from Planetside which has day/night cycles). Or one which has to track different attributes to determine to hit/armour etc. An FPS just calculates these things differently (they use a spread pattern to hit, not a skill modifier to hit...same with damage done...in an fps, a certain enemy takes weapondamage minus (maybe!) armour; an rpg takes into account weapon skill and armour skill, and maybe even movement penalties etc).

An RPG with the same graphics as an fps has to take into account a HELL of a lot more data than an fps. And all that data (and there's a LOT of it) takes up mucho RAM and mucho processing power. It really isn't strange that FarCry looks so good...they had the cycles to spare.

And physics...well, physics is physics, in an RPG or a FPS...same performance hit.


Sorry, just read this:
"You cannot really make the argument that the game system combat calculations take up any significant amount of processing or memory. Those are extremely simple calculations, especially compared to the rest of the things that already go on in both of these games...a drop in the bucket"

Wow, you too need to look into how computing and programming is done. You can make that point, BECAUSE IT IS TRUE. It does take up a lot of memory and that automatically means that it takes more processing power (appart from the more complex calculations, like not just plus and minus but divisions and multiplying, which take up more than just twice the time, it's just inherent in larger datasets).
These are NOT simple caclulations, they take much more time and they are not just a drop in the bucket. Shit, even if they took just 10% of the CPU/Ram budget (and they usually take more, up to 20% at least nowadays), that 10%-20% more than an FPS needs, which is 10%-20% which can go to running things faster or making things look better.

 

[Faustus]

Balor...go take a basic computing course, please. RPG's are inherently more taxing to the cpu...all the thing which are kept track of in RPG's (and I'm not even talking about streaming world tech) like schedules, day/night cycles, inventory, attribute versus to hit calculations and the like, the maqny more different weapons, the many more pathfinding operations (a whole level of NPC's versus maybe five to ten at the most in an FPS) and many more things....

An FPS just needs to look good (all on the GPU) and have five to ten computer controlled NPC's running about with a couple of weapons. An rpg does that, plus all of the above (name me one FPS asifdde from Planetside which has day/night cycles). Or one which has to track different attributes to determine to hit/armour etc. An FPS just calculates these things differently (they use a spread pattern to hit, not a skill modifier to hit...same with damage done...in an fps, a certain enemy takes weapondamage minus (maybe!) armour; an rpg takes into account weapon skill and armour skill, and maybe even movement penalties etc).

An RPG with the same graphics as an fps has to take into account a HELL of a lot more data than an fps. And all that data (and there's a LOT of it) takes up mucho RAM and mucho processing power. It really isn't strange that FarCry looks so good...they had the cycles to spare.

And physics...well, physics is physics, in an RPG or a FPS...same performance hit.


Sorry, just read this:
"You cannot really make the argument that the game system combat calculations take up any significant amount of processing or memory. Those are extremely simple calculations, especially compared to the rest of the things that already go on in both of these games...a drop in the bucket"

Wow, you too need to look into how computing and programming is done. You can make that point, BECAUSE IT IS TRUE. It does take up a lot of memory and that automatically means that it takes more processing power (appart from the more complex calculations, like not just plus and minus but divisions and multiplying, which take up more than just twice the time, it's just inherent in larger datasets).
These are NOT simple caclulations, they take much more time and they are not just a drop in the bucket. Shit, even if they took just 10% of the CPU/Ram budget (and they usually take more, up to 20% at least nowadays), that 10%-20% more than an FPS needs, which is 10%-20% which can go to running things faster or making things look better.

Thanks, I've been a C/C++ programmer for 14 years. I'm not a game programmer so I may be oversimplifying things, but these are my opinions. You have yours and I have mine...

All of the things you are talking about being specific to rpgs vs. fps are being incorporated into fps too. The Crytek engine used in Far Cry now has day night cycles, scheduling, massive areas, etc...

What is streaming world tech?

Yes, those to-hit, to-save, etc. calcs are extremely simple. If it takes 10% of cpu something is seriously wrong with the programming. It isn't a huge amount of data either. Drop in the bucket compared to stuff like pathfinding and physics.

Pathfinding and bot AI is not specific to rpgs. The rpg pathfinding is not any more demanding.

The inventory system I've already addressed. How this sub-system affects the performace of the game is entirely design/implementation specific. There is no reason it has to be a big performance hit.

The dialogue system is only needed when it is needed so....moot. If it affects performance significantly, it is the design.

Both fps and rpg keep track of game state. The rpg may or may not have more things to keep track of but it seems like these are mostly a bunch of boolean values... big deal.

Do RPGs have more to them than FPS games? Yes. I was never disputing that. Does it have to be a big performance difference? No. Like all other technologies, it depends on implementation. Specifically, the example of Half Life 2 versus Bloodlines, I think is implementation. (i.e. mostly world design decisions like number and placement of lightsources, area design tweaking, structural layout, polygon composition and model optimization, the rpg specific sub-systems may not have been optimized to minimize memory footprint through efficient caching, etc....)

I think given more time, the Troika guys could have addressed all of this but we all know the realities of business and they didn't have that luxury.

 

[suibhne]

I think performance has a lot to do with the implementation of a given engine technology. I doubt the engine code was exactly the same between HL2 and Bloodlines, but even if it was I don't think you can accurately attribute the performance differences to one being an RPG and the other being a "shooter". I really cannot think of anything that the Bloodlines game could be doing that HL2 didn't have to be doing as well.

Boyarsky said a few years back that Bloodlines was much more CPU-intensive than HL2 because of all the character "AI". What passes for AI in first-person shooters is generally pretty rudimentary in terms of CPU cycles, and it doesn't exist at all until you open the door and ends as soon as you kill everyone in the room. Computational demands in an RPG, even something as disgustingly simplistic as Oblivion, are night-and-day different.

 

[Baphomet]

As a programmer, I strongly feel that only a programmer who has worked on both RPG and FPS projects can authoritatively chime in on the topic. A few have said interesting things in this thread, but to be honest, it's speculation at worst and a series of educated guesses at best.

 

[Faustus]

As a programmer, I strongly feel that only a programmer who has worked on both RPG and FPS projects can authoritatively chime in on the topic. A few have said interesting things in this thread, but to be honest, it's speculation at worst and a series of educated guesses at best.

True. It is speculation.

 

[aweigh]

Speculation? Educated guesses? On the Codex? Impossible.

Everyone here has a doctorate of some sort and and knows everything they choose to talk about. Haven't you read any one of the political/racism/etc threads? Wow wee waa waa, so many smarty pants! Truly a wonder how they all hang around forums chewing the fat when they're so smart they could be curing cancer or something.

 

[Volourn]

"Everyone here has a doctorate of some sort and and knows everything they choose to talk about. Haven't you read any one of the political/racism/etc threads? Wow wee waa waa, so many smarty pants! Truly a wonder how they all hang around forums chewing the fat when they're so smart they could be curing cancer or something."

Damn straight we do. You better fuckin' believe it, MAN.

 

[Claw]

PANDA.

 

[suibhne]

SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD PANDA>>>