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Decline AD&D Stagnation

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by PorkyThePaladin, May 9, 2015.

  1. a Goat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    a Goat
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    A lot of these are caused by abstraction. Abstraction is needed for P&P, you won't fucking roll a dice 10 times and then start calculating momentum and shit to decide if your blow pierced through armour or not.
    Which obviously brings the question why do game devs use P&P rulesets for video games? So the rules are understandable for somebody who doesn't have proper education, that's why. There's a lot you can write about it(I'd say that complicated, but logical rulesets kill min-maxing better than any other mean but who cares) but to keep it on topic - it works like that because it's complicated enough to simulate armour and avoidance and simple enough to not waste all your day on math.
     
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  2. waywardOne Arcane

    waywardOne
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    [from a misplaced post]

    If I may quote Gary Gygax, from the preface of 1e DMG (1979):

     
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  3. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
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    ...what?
     
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  4. ArchAngel Arcane Sad Loser

    ArchAngel
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    So you just have double standard. Ok. Got it.
     
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  5. Ladonna Arcane

    Ladonna
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    Eventually, you may see CRPG developers, once again, follow their (computer) wargaming parents, though I doubt it. Proper computer wargames have, for years, had games that can compute distances, gun velocities, armour penetration angles, and many more abstractions on the fly. CRPGs however are still stuck with pen and paper systems. Nothing wrong with that at all, I love pen and paper style wargames too.

    With CRPGs, you could say they have gone 'arcade' but never 'flight sim/sub sim/armoured sim/etc' detailed. Games that are 'action RPGs' are the same as some arcade flight sim without the need for the game (or you) to worry about fuel mixture, wind, the affect of damage, plotting courses, setting your elevators correctly, or the myriad of other details required in top notch warfare simulators (See Il 2 Sturmovik 1946 as example). Grab a Skyrim, or any other action RPG, and you get an arcade simulator with some nods to realism. What you are asking for is the Warfare sim version of a CRPG. It isn't here yet (except perhaps in ascii form in a few limited CRPGs) and I honestly doubt it ever will.
     
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  6. a Goat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    a Goat
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    It is perfectly possible but this thing happens for a reason.

    It's like with overly-exotic settings.

    You see there are people, who mostly want, deep, rewarding combat, good writing and c&c from their RPG's.

    But then there are people who come out with simple request - I WANT MY MEDIEVAL FANTASY ADVENTURE! They don't mind combat being complex or C&C being worthwhile, they love it just like the guys above.

    If you'll make a medieval fantasy game with the elements people #1 want you'll hit both audiences. When you experiment with setting one of them will be left untouched.

    Back to combat.
    Complicated, simulator-like combat in RPG's won't happen because:
    1) there are various audiences, like min-maxers who like to understand the combat system from the core
    2) combat itself would be very hard to program as you'd need person educated in the topic and able to properly modify known formulas for high-velocity projectiles and modern steel plates to medieval steel and blades.
     
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  7. Beastro Arcane

    Beastro
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    It's a Germanic/Finno-Ugric, above all specifically Anglo-Saxon Migration Period style work with Christian overtones from the outset like Beowulf, not the Romano-British Migration Period roots of Arthurian legend nor the Franco-Norman legend we know today that took form after the Conquest.
     
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  8. Keldryn Arcane

    Keldryn
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    AD&D combat rounds initially represented one minute within the game world. That single roll to hit AC needs to be viewed within this original context to truly understand the abstraction. This roll was to determine if one of your attempts to strike your opponent during that minute was able to overcome his defenses. How exactly you managed to land a telling blow wasn't relevant to how the rules worked. It was assumed that combatants were always trying to find a weakness and exploit it, so called shots and hit location s were not necessary.

    Your PC's ability scores actually had little gameplay pact in the original 1974 version of D&D. Strength, Intelligence, and Wisdom were the prime requisites of the three character classes in the game, and a high score in the appropriate PR granted a 10% bonus to XP. They didn't affect any die rolls. Dexterity granted a -1 bonus to AC if it was 14 or higher, and a similar Constitution score granted +1 hit point per hit die. That was it. A combatant's ability was primarily determined by experience level. Ability scores were mostly descriptive at this point. I believe it was the Greyhawk supplement that introduced a range of modifiers for each ability score, which made it into AD&D with some revisions.

    So originally, the benefit of a high Strength to a fighter was that he was a "natural" and progressed in fighting ability a bit faster than the average man. And he could carry more equipment and treasure. When the bonus to hit was added, it reflected the fact that the hit roll was based on getting through armor.

    AD&D had a full page table of Weapon vs Armor Type modifiers, where every single weapon had adjustments to hit each armor type, from shield only through plate mail & shield. I don't know anybody who actually used it, as it really slowed down play. Gygax himself stated that he never used them, including them in the game at the urging of some of his players. 2e simplified this into slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning damage vs specific types of armor. Still didn't see much play, in my experience.

    Over the years, many have criticized the abstractions of D&D as unrealistic and illogical (AC, hit points, 1 minute rounds, etc). I see these abstractions as one of its greatest strengths, as they make for a robust and flexible resolution system that plays fairly quickly.
     
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  9. Alchemist Arcane

    Alchemist
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    Others have said what I would have said... and AD&D works fine at what it sets out to do. If you want something more realistic / simulationist, stuff like GURPS is out there.
     
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