Interview Age of Decadence - Big in France

[serch]

Just change challenging with mentally challenging and you are ready to go. It's very difficult to make a RT game that defies intellect instead of reflexes and coordination because mind is a lot faster than your hands.

 

[Dark Matter]

Face it, your notion of TB combat somehow being more challenging than RT combat is a fucking joke.

TB is a purely intellectual challenge, and I believe that's what VD meant.

It's funny you should mention Starcraft. I happen to know the guy who won the second place in some tournament a couple of years ago, getting nice cash for a then sixteen year old guy. What he said amounted to "No, there's no thinking. You need to be lightning fast, know how to assign hotkeys to groups to optimise your speed and the order of buildings and units you need. You pick a strategy and stick to it, if it fails you're screwed no matter what you do, there's no time to rethink or to change anything mid-game".
I've seen complete and utter retards owning everyone in SC and W3. RT rewards your speeds, not your smarts. Smarts are useful, but not necessary to win. I can't even imagine someone brilliant but sluggish winning a Starcraft match.

I was using starcraft as an example of a highly competitive and challenging RT game, who said anything about it being based purely on thought?

And FYI, TB RPGs, in general, have never exactly offered you a multitude of equally effective tactics and strategies. Sure, in Fallout, you could choose from a hundred different character builds. Just like in Starcraft you can choose a hundred different build orders and strategies if you wanted to. The only difference is that in Fallout, you can afford to pick crapper builds because it's just an easy, noncompetitive single player experience. On the other hand, in a game like Starcraft, in order to be successful online, your strategies are limited because you don't have that luxury of choosing shittier builds just for the fun of it. To be successful online in real time strategy games, you're limited to a select few strategies and build orders. If more TB games had competitive multiplayer, you'd see that the number of strategies would be just as limited as in the case of RT games.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Obviously since RT combat is easy, dumbed down stuff that even a 10 year old can master, I'm sure someone who managed to beat such mind-blowingly deep and challenging games like Jagged Alliance and X-Com should be able to start up a game of Starcraft, Ninja Gaiden, Operation Flashpoint, Ikaruga etc. and pwn everybody, right?

Uh... yeah, that's exactly what I meant. It's clear that playing deep tactical TB games like Jagged Alliance 2, which something tells me you haven't played, and arcade fighting games and shooters, no matter how "tactical", is exactly the same thing. Thank you for proving my point, btw. If these games are the best tactical examples (that don't rely on one's manual dexterity at all)...

Face it, your notion of TB combat somehow being more challenging than RT combat is a fucking joke.

I salute your argument building skills! You take a solid "your notion is a joke!" argument, slap "Face it" on it - nice touch, throw in "fucking" to show your disdain, and now you have a fucking tank. Deadly and unstoppable. I mean, what could I possibly say to that?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Just change challenging with mentally challenging and you are ready to go. It's very difficult to make a RT game that defies intellect instead of reflexes and coordination because mind is a lot faster than your hands.

What other challenge could there possibly be? How fast can you click? We are talking about an RPG on RPG Codex. Not CS Codex.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I was using starcraft as an example of a highly competitive and challenging RT game...

How about Counter-Strike? It's also a highly competitive and challenging game.

And FYI, TB RPGs, in general, have never exactly offered you a multitude of equally effective tactics and strategies. Sure, in Fallout...

FYI, child? If your TB gaming experience starts with Fallout, then you haven't experienced anything yet.

 

[Volourn]

Most TB games are not intellectually challenging. It's a myth to claim. You keep bring up JA2; but JA2 is basically the peak (or so certain people claim) (I've only played it a bit) of tb combat. Most Tb games fail. TOEE is tb. It is not challenging. Intellectually or otherwise. Same with POR2. And, the list goes on.

Same with RT games. btw, Games like BG, NWN, etc., are not real time games. And, NWN series' combat is no less deep or complex than any TB game including JA2 which is overrated anyways. The bit I played off it was easy, boring, bland, unoriginal, and simple. And, definitely not different strategy wise compared to either TB or RT games. It reminds of FFT - another Tb game that is overhyped and overrated based on its Tb combat but is ultimately a fraud.

And, you are right. We're talking RPG Codex not Strategy/Tatic Codex.. so what the fuck are we talking about JA2 for? LMAO

 

[Dark Matter]

Uh... yeah, that's exactly what I meant.

That's essentially what you said. I assumed you said what you meant. I'm not a mind reader, you know.

It's clear that playing deep tactical TB games like Jagged Alliance 2, which something tells me you haven't played, and arcade fighting games and shooters, no matter how "tactical", is exactly the same thing.

You're the one who made the initial comparison by suggesting that RT games are easy that any random joe can be successful at.

If these games are the best tactical examples (that don't rely on one's manual dexterity at all)...

They aren't (OFP qualifies though). I never said anything about deep and tactics. I was talking about challenge and difficulty.

 

[serch]

What other challenge could there possibly be? How fast can you click? We are talking about an RPG on RPG Codex. Not CS Codex

Starcraft, Ninja Gaiden, Operation Flashpoint, Ikaruga

Somehow I felt the need of explaining what you were trying to say :D

 

[Volourn]

None of the IE games required manual dexterity to do well in. In fact, intellectual decisions matter more. Dumbasses.

 

[Kos_Koa]

Face it, your notion of RT combat somehow being more challenging than TB combat is a fucking joke.

 

[Dark Matter]

Just change challenging with mentally challenging and you are ready to go. It's very difficult to make a RT game that defies intellect instead of reflexes and coordination because mind is a lot faster than your hands.

What other challenge could there possibly be? How fast can you click? We are talking about an RPG on RPG Codex. Not CS Codex.

Don't flip flop, punk. You said challenge and claimed that even a 10 year can old be good at RT games unlike with TB games. Challenge is challenge. There's no reason to exclude factors like precision and quick thinking and reflexes. And the "this is RPG Codex" argument doesn't work because you're the one who's been going on about JA2 and X-Com this whole time.

Also, where did you get this idea that RT games are all about speed and manual dexterity. As Volourn said, the IE games have very little emphasis on manual dexterity given the fact that you can fucking pause the combat and analyze the situation and then issue orders.

 

[serch]

You know I always thought thay IE games were not RTwP they were more like aborted turn based ones (ATB) Your fighter could not swing his sword faster if you clicked more quickly, neither your wizard could cast more spells. There were TB activity in the engine, it was not so visible like in ToEE, though. Those games would have been a lot better with a pure TB combat.

 

[Dark Matter]

How about Counter-Strike? It's also a highly competitive and challenging game.

Sure, that too.

FYI, child? If your TB gaming experience starts with Fallout, then you haven't experienced anything yet.

Why not Fallout? There was plenty of whining about Fallout 3's combat and about how it's dumbed down and non-tactical like the orignals. It's funny because for the majority of the game, all you're doing is going for targeted head shots in both games (In original FOs, you usually wait till your weapons skill is high enough). FO combat is advertised and deep and tactical on the Codex. It's not. Fun, yes, but not deep in the slightest bit.

 

[Dark Matter]

Face it, your notion of RT combat somehow being more challenging than TB combat is a fucking joke.

I made no such claim.

 

[Micormic]

1 game for all you retards

age of empires 2

play that online and try only using reflexes, you'll get fucked so badly, you gotta use tactics in REAL rts's, not blizzard shit.

 

[Dark Matter]

You know I always thought thay IE games were not RTwP they were more like aborted turn based ones (ATB) Your fighter could not swing his sword faster if you clicked more quickly, neither your wizard could cast more spells. There were TB activity in the engine, it was not so visible like in ToEE, though. Those games would have been a lot better with a pure TB combat.

No. A pure TB mode may have worked well for the longer and more difficult encounters, but if the game switched to TB for every simple and easy encounter (which can be won simply by clicking the attack button once and watching), the game would be excruciatingly slow and boring.

 

[Dark Matter]

1 game for all you retards

age of empires 2

play that online and try only using reflexes, you'll get fucked so badly, you gotta use tactics in REAL rts's, not blizzard shit.

Good example. I played AoE2 + Age of Mythology (especially AoM) quite a bit back in the day and they're definitely not about having insanely fast reflexes (although that helps a bit too).

 

[Vault Dweller]

You said challenge and claimed that even a 10 year can old be good at RT games unlike with TB games.

http://wire.ggl.com/2007/12/06/youngest ... ts-in-osl/

"First-person views of [13-year old] Tae Yong’s screen show remarkable speed... "

Challenge is challenge.

I guess so. Now that you've opened my eyes, I'm not sure what's more challenging, a good TB battle or a RT pie-eating contest. Challenge is challenge, right?

There's no reason to exclude factors like precision and quick thinking and reflexes. And the "this is RPG Codex" argument doesn't work because you're the one who's been going on about JA2 and X-Com this whole time.

JA2 isn't an RPG? Why? Care to prove it? Wiki says it's a tactical RPG, but what do they know? What is this? The Codex too thinks it's a role-playing game. Saint Proverbius even made a newspost where other people called it an RPG.

Tip: Not everything Volourn says is a fact.

Also, where did you get this idea that RT games are all about speed and manual dexterity. As Volourn said, the IE games have very little emphasis on manual dexterity given the fact that you can fucking pause the combat and analyze the situation and then issue orders.

Well, if Volourn says so, it must be true.

Why not Fallout? There was plenty of whining about Fallout 3's combat and about how it's dumbed down and non-tactical like the orignals. It's funny because for the majority of the game, all you're doing is going for targeted head shots in both games (In original FOs, you usually wait till your weapons skill is high enough). FO combat is advertised and deep and tactical on the Codex.

Where? Must have missed it.

 

[Monocause]

1 game for all you retards

age of empires 2

play that online and try only using reflexes, you'll get fucked so badly, you gotta use tactics in REAL rts's, not blizzard shit.

Good example. I played AoE2 + Age of Mythology (especially AoM) quite a bit back in the day and they're definitely not about having insanely fast reflexes (although that helps a bit too).

Again, imagine a brilliant but sluggish man winning in AOE2. Not gonna happen. Look, if you're slow in a pure RT game, you're gonna fail no matter how smart you are. And IE games are RTwP. Sure, they don't rely on twitch. But they are less intellectually demanding than TB since AI sucks, being inadequate to get even close to stand to a human mind in real time.
And not all of the combat in ToEE was easy. The second half of the game was a joke, but earlier I remember quite a few fights in which I could win only by careful planning, anticipation and using all the resources I had (fe. the fight in Nulb when you're ambushed by these temple-aligned shopkeepers). The lack of difficulty in ToEE was not a fault of the engine or the AI but of very uneven encounter design.

 

[Volourn]

"Face it, your notion of RT combat somehow being more challenging than TB combat is a fucking joke."

Face it. I claimed such thing. My point is whether or not a game is challenging has absolutely NOTHINg to do with RT vs TB. Or RTWP or shitadoodledaddle. Totally IRRELEVANT.

VD, you claimed that 1TB games were mroe challenging than RT games and used (or one of your supporters did) the 'fact' that that 10 year olds can master RT games but not TB games as 'proof'. Bullocks. I remember mastering a bunch of TB games when I was a kiddie just fine, and daddy. And, so did many 'old school' RPgers, since we grew up on tb fuckin' games. It doesn't take a genius to beat a TB game. Don't be a dumbass. You do NOt need to be smart to play TB games. That's retarded.

 

[Dark Matter]

You said challenge and claimed that even a 10 year can old be good at RT games unlike with TB games.
http://wire.ggl.com/2007/12/06/youngest ... ts-in-osl/

"First-person views of [13-year old] Tae Yong’s screen show remarkable speed... "

You're missing the point. It was never about age. I wasn't suggesting that it takes a fully matured and educated mind to be good at RT games (and the same applies for TB games). The point is that not any random joe can just come in and be good at them (which is what your initial comment suggested). I bet even for that 13 year-old, it took quite some time and quite a bit of experience before he got good at it. A 10 year's ability to master starcraft is no greater than his ability to master X-com or JA2.

I guess so. Now that you've opened my eyes, I'm not sure what's more challenging, a good TB battle or a RT pie-eating contest. Challenge is challenge, right?

Testing your appetite and your pie-eating skills is unrelated to gaming. We were talking about RT combat vs. TB combat in the context of video games. What the fuck has pie-eating got to do with it? But yes, it's very likely that entering a RT pie-eating contest would be a more challenging and difficult experience than playing JA2.

JA2 isn't an RPG? Why? Care to prove it? Wiki says it's a tactical RPG, but what do they know? What is this? The Codex too thinks it's a role-playing game. Saint Proverbius even made a newspost where other people called it an RPG.

How is JA2 an RPG? It has RPG elements like having a few basic stats for your mercs that can be improved (but then again so do a bunchshooters and real time strategy games). JA2 is a turn based tactical/strategy game with a few RPG elements.

Well, if Volourn says so, it must be true.

He's most certainly right in this case. Care to show how he's wrong? Or do you just wanna cop out by pulling out the "BUT ITZ VOLOURN" card?

Where? Must have missed it.

It's around somewhere. I don't make a habit of archiving the Codex's opinions on pointless topics.[/quote]

 

[Severian Silk]

"We want combat in AoD to be a mental challenge. You have a lot of options, and we want players to feel threatened in each battle and carefully choose their actions. The players interested in this sort of combat overwhelmingly prefer turn based combat to RTwP, and we are happy to oblige them."

VD should let you do the his marketing. He always comes across as such an ass.

 

[Dark Matter]

It doesn't take a genius to beat a TB game. Don't be a dumbass. You do NOt need to be smart to play TB games.

Agreed. Anyone who thinks that someone who's an expert at a certain game (RT or TB) is actually somehow smarter than someone who sucks at that game is an idiot. People who are good at any game are good because they have more experience, more practice, and a better understanding of the game and it's mechanics. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with being a genius.

 

[obediah]

...

K, I can live with that. The other thing I dislike about RTwP is simultaneous action.
Let's sketch a situation:
Horde of gibberlings attacks in BG and in ToEE.
BG: Cast fireball. Now I don't know exactly when the spell will trigger, because turns aren't clearly separated and I have no knowledge how the initiative rolls worked out. So I have to guess where to aim to get as many gibberlings as possible without frying my tanks. Adding to this BG didn't show the radiuses of your spells so you had to be extra careful. Casting Aoe spells with friendly fire was pretty much a gamble and I didn't use them much.
ToEE: When it's the wizard's turn it's his turn. Whatever he does then will affect everybody in spell radius. He can decide where to place the fireball for maximum effect. He can adapt to the situation in that exact moment.

Of course it's a matter of preference but I just love that kind of control.

I get your complaint, but this is a bad example. BG was a shit adaption of a turn based ruleset over a shit RT engine. It was a design decision to not let you precisely use a fireball spell ( i.e. pause when spell is ready and position template ). Probably to balance shit AI, or keep the things moving.

 

[Monocause]

You're missing the point. It was never about age. I wasn't suggesting that it takes a fully matured and educated mind to be good at RT games (and the same applies for TB games). The point is that not any random joe can just come in and be good at them (which is what your initial comment suggested). I bet even for that 13 year-old, it took quite some time and quite a bit of experience before he got good at it. A 10 year's ability to master starcraft is no greater than his ability to master X-com or JA2.

I've played many a SC match on bnet in my teens. Try to talk to some of the guys at the top of the ladder. Or better yet, check out some clan fora. It will give you the exact idea how stupid you can be and still be fucking awesome at starcraft.
Yes, it takes time and experience to be good at it. But so does running or jumping, or playing football. And you won't tell me that these activities require intellect.
And yes, someone can devote time to master fe. JA2. But a dumb person will need much more effort to be good at it than someone intelligent.

Chess is the mother of all TB games. Show me an average Joe that has exactly the same amount of experience as I have (about 40-50 played games) and will be able to beat me in it. A chess scrap anytime you want.

Testing your appetite and your pie-eating skills is unrelated to gaming. We were talking about RT combat vs. TB combat in the context of video games. What the fuck has pie-eating got to do with it?

Now I'm pretty sure you're just trolling. Or you're stupid.