Age of Decadence Reviews

[Mustawd]

How does this one breathe with VD's dick on his throat 24/7?

So you are going to resort to name calling now? How old are you, twelve? Do you like PoE or The White March? Ok, so how do you breathe with Sawyer's dick on your throat 24/7?

If you think the game is bad, try to present arguments to sustain your point, you know, like someone who actually knows what he is talking about. Otherwise you can just keep your mouth shut like a causal. I know this is really difficult for you because you think that living inside this forum makes you special, but you should try. It would be great.

LOL ITS CYOA BECAUS DIEALOG

Well it is a CYOA but it doesn't really affect it's RPGness other than it being a very amateur/simple way to go about things. Player agency through scripting brute force.

Can't tell if discussing AoD or PS:T

 

[Kev Inkline]

How does this one breathe with VD's dick on his throat 24/7?

So you are going to resort to name calling now? How old are you, twelve? Do you like PoE or The White March? Ok, so how do you breathe with Sawyer's dick on your throat 24/7?

If you think the game is bad, try to present arguments to sustain your point, you know, like someone who actually knows what he is talking about. Otherwise you can just keep your mouth shut like a causal. I know this is really difficult for you because you think that living inside this forum makes you special, but you should try. It would be great.

LOL ITS CYOA BECAUS DIEALOG

Well it is a CYOA but it doesn't really affect it's RPGness other than it being a very amateur/simple way to go about things. Player agency through scripting brute force.

Can't tell if discussing AoD or PS:T

They can't either.

 

[Jrpgfan]

Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but I'll post it here anyway.

On the DR feedback thread I reported that I couldn't alt+tab while on fullscreen and if I exit the game I'd get stuck in a black screen and the only way to get back to the desktop would be by manually restarting the computer. Well, I reinstalled AoD today and the same problem occurs now aswell. Not sure if it is related to some update or restricted to windows 10 since I changed to it from 7 since the last time I played the game, but if you guys feel like this is an issue worth checking out, my part is done.

I have a GTX970 and an i7 2600k and am on Windows 10 if it helps with something.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Suffice to say that if you think VD's design school is good then you have a fundamentally flawed understanding of RPGs and how CRPGs are meant to emulate them in computer format.

Of course! Why I didn't think that before? You are the God of truth. You know everything. I should simply accept your arbitrary opinion without any arguments at all. Keep repeating the same thing over and over to people who disagree with you. It sounds so convincing and productive.

It doesn't seem that controversial a point though that any RPG involving a GM following up "you encounter X", with "do you either do A, B, C or D" rather than letting the players figure out what to do by themselves would be accused of having a "fundamentally flawed understanding of RPGs".

I think VD always argues in defense of CYOA that freedom is something that inevitably leads to exploitation in cRPG's (I remember him using the locking doors to kill Metzger in FO2 without his crew understanding what's going on example a while back), because there's no GM to creatively respond to and curb players' shenanigans.

A kind of complement to Sawyer's belief that wacky abilities will inevitably lead to exploits without a GM around to curb the excesses maybe. Sawyer and VD fighting a two-front war against degeneracy.

 

[Lurker King]

It doesn't seem that controversial a point though that any RPG involving a GM following up "you encounter X", with "do you either do A, B, C or D" rather than letting the players figure out what to do by themselves would be accused of having a "fundamentally flawed understanding of RPGs".

I think VD always argues in defense of CYOA that freedom is something that inevitably leads to exploitation in cRPG's (I remember him using the locking doors to kill Metzger in FO2 without his crew understanding what's going on example a while back), because there's no GM to creatively respond to and curb players' shenanigans.

A kind of complement to Sawyer's belief that wacky abilities will inevitably lead to exploits without a GM around to curb the excesses maybe. Sawyer and VD fighting a two-front war against degeneracy.

I understand why someone could be frustrated by this, but you need to consider some things. First, in most cRPGs the game world is static, it is there just so that you can fiddle with it. This is gamey as fuck. You can feel powerless having to face a scripted event, but at least they make sense. Second, the feelings of frustration and the overall perception regarding script events are overblown, because the content is still the same. In AoD you go talk to someone to solve a problem and a new screen appears with a scripted event and some dialogue choices. In other games, you go talk to someone to solve a problem, you click on that particular NPC, and a dialogue screen appears with some choices. The content is the same. The only difference is the presentation of the same events. It is a matter of habit. You are used to do things in a certain way and you feel restricted or forced if you have to watch a scripted event. Now, that is silly, because you are also forced to select among the choices you are dealt with when you have to click on that particular NPC to move on. You don’t have more freedom in the last case. I prefer scripted events that makes sense and help you to immerse yourself on the game world over a gamey world any day.

You could object that this comparison doesn’t do justice to cases in which there are uses of skills. In Fallout, you can use skills (lockpick, traps, steal, etc.) and you can mess with stuff in the game world, exploring different things, etc. In AoD you don’t have any of that. Thus, AoD gameplay would feel underwhelming in comparison to other games such as Fallout. This criticism, however, fails in the same problem of the previous argument. Just because you have to start a scripted event when you use a skill (lockpick, steal, traps, etc.) it doesn’t mean that you lose any content. Maybe you could insist that it is more agile and cool to click on things many times to use your skills, but in AoD you can also use skills such as steal, lockpick and alchemy without entering in scripted events. Thus, the criticism is unfair. Moreover, you are ignoring how these scripted events can be immersive on their own right. The text adventures associated with the use of stealth are one the best things I ever played. They are immersive, filled with surprises and addictive. The fact that I can’t move my character model inside these events with the mouse, doesn’t change anything because I can move it choosing one of the alternatives.

Therefore, it is more a matter of habit, than game content. Playing a cRPG without scripted events gives you the illusion that you are freer, forcing you to do a bunch of lateral things like ruining from point A to point B and gives you a gamey world that it is more static. Playing a cRPG with scripted events gives you the exact same content*, but present things in a more immersive and believable manner, which reduces the feeling of being in charge you have in more games. The truth is that no other genre strokes the player ego so much as cRPGs. They expect the game world to be a park waiting for them. That it is ridiculous.

*Now, I’m saying that you having the same content, but that is not true at all. If you consider the amount of choices and possibilities the branching storyline allows you in AoD, then it has considerably more choices than most games out there in Teron alone

 

[Vault Dweller]

Suffice to say that if you think VD's design school is good then you have a fundamentally flawed understanding of RPGs and how CRPGs are meant to emulate them in computer format.

Of course! Why I didn't think that before? You are the God of truth. You know everything. I should simply accept your arbitrary opinion without any arguments at all. Keep repeating the same thing over and over to people who disagree with you. It sounds so convincing and productive.

It doesn't seem that controversial a point though that any RPG involving a GM following up "you encounter X", with "do you either do A, B, C or D" rather than letting the players figure out what to do by themselves would be accused of having a "fundamentally flawed understanding of RPGs".

I think VD always argues in defense of CYOA that freedom is something that inevitably leads to exploitation in cRPG's (I remember him using the locking doors to kill Metzger in FO2 without his crew understanding what's going on example a while back), because there's no GM to creatively respond to and curb players' shenanigans.

This was never my argument. I prefer the CYOA design because it gives you more freedom not less. Also, I disagree that the player is doing any figuring out worth a damn. All quest solutions are scripted, so it's either "do you either do A, B, C or D" or "do you either do A, B, C or D but you have to find them first". The latter is never a real puzzle but basic interaction (click on the lockpick button then on the door) or legwork (run to the guy who has the key). Might as well present all *logical* options and hide the rest (options that actually require some thinking), which is what we did in AoD.

 

[Lurker King]

It is curious because I was talking about Chrono Trigger in another thread just now and then it occurred to me that the narrative mechanism it uses in most cases are scripted events. I never thought about that until today. The only difference is that you don’t have different screens for some of these scripted events. You stop and things happen right in front of you. It is not surprising that it is one of the few (or maybe the only one?) jRPGs that took C&C seriously.

 

[makiavelli747]

All quest solutions are scripted

So simple and yet nobody can't see it... I guess that "illusion" thing plays a big part.
Maybe players should think more from dev's point of view... I don't know

 

[Excidium II]

There's a big difference between things and quest states having associated scripted events vs all player interactions with the game being done through a chain of scripted events using dialogue interface.

The correct approach is to program for player agency from the ground up, with all things carrying associated characteristics and functions that interact with other things. In the sense that you don't tell me to pick 1) leap wall to leap a wall in this specific scripted event, but there's a character and a wall and those things by themselves imply a relationship of one being able to leap over the other.

That way you don't write a billion lines CYOA to acknowledge all possible (that you can think of) player approaches in a particular quest, what is possible is decided by the things that are present in the scene and how they can interact with each other.

So if you have a quest to infiltrate some compound and retrieve an object, you simply put the compound together with walls, guards, dogs, doors, windows, tables, even the floor carries characteristics and functions such as being Diggable. Whatever hand scripting there is, is for narrative varibales like "player captured" or "object retrieved" or "object given to fulano" or whatever event you want to play out in a particular way.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And how many games (that aren't exploration-driven sandbox games) actually allow you to do that? Were you able to do it in Fallout? No. You click on the well to repair, hidden script checks the skill value and displays failure or success overhead text. You click on any device and a hidden script checks your corresponding skill, etc. That's how it works in most RPGs. Remember that car that had a spare part in Fallout 2? It's on the other side of a chicken wire fence. You can't climb over it (because that's extra animation), you can't blow a hole in it because it's a not destructible object, you have to go get a key to a nearby house that leads you to the other side of the fence.

PS. It's easy to imagine a perfect RPG that has everything and does everything right, but such a thing doesn't exist. It's not that what you describe is impossible, but it's a massive project (and a game in itself) without an actual game on top of it. There is a reason why RPGs tend to "specialize".

 

[Excidium II]

And how many games (that aren't exploration-driven sandbox games) actually allow you to do that?

Zero, since everyone seems content with CRPGs as twists and variations of the same frameworks.

Were you able to do it in Fallout? No. You click on the well to repair, hidden script checks the skill value and displays failure or success overhead text. You click on any device and a hidden script checks your corresponding skill, etc. That's how it works in most RPGs. Remember that car that had a spare part in Fallout 2? It's on the other side of a chicken wire fence. You can't climb over it (because that's extra animation), you can't blow a hole in it because it's a not destructible object, you have to go get a key to a nearby house that leads you to the other side of the fence.

Indeed. Sad that's more or less the point where CRPGs stopped.

 

[Lurker King]

There's a big difference between things and quest states having associated scripted events vs all player interactions with the game being done through a chain of scripted events using dialogue interface.

This is a strawman. It is unfair to say that all player interactions in AoD are done by a chain of scripted events. You can use steal on targets, lockpick on boxes and closed doors, lore on ancient texts, crafting on broken things, harvest ingredients to use with alchemy, traps on… traps, etc. You have plenty of opportunities to use these skills without scripted events.

The correct approach is to program for player agency from the ground up, with all things carrying associated characteristics and functions that interact with other things.

What you are failing to realize is that using scripted events is a different and more immersive way to create player’s agency. Complaining that the use of scripted events is incompatible with cRPGs or bad design is just a prejudice resulting from lack of habit. If most cRPGs used this, you would say that games that take a different approach are not cRPGs.

 

[Excidium II]

All CRPGs more or less work like that so I dunno what you're talking about.

This is a strawman. It is unfair to say that all player interactions in AoD are done by a chain of scripted events. You can use steal on targets, lockpick on boxes and closed doors, lore on ancient texts, crafting on broken things, harvest ingredients to use with alchemy, traps on… traps, etc. You have plenty of opportunities to use these skills without scripted events.

Those are scripted events.

 

[Lurker King]

No, these are gameplay mechanics that will react to players’ inputs (X points in skill or stat) in a certain way. They are scripted only in the sense their behavior was programed, but by this standards, everything will be always scripted. The relevant discussion is whether the accusations that the scripted events, reads “text-adventures and CYOA interactions” amounts to bad gameplay in cRPGs. I think they don’t.

A kind of complement to Sawyer's belief that wacky abilities will inevitably lead to exploits without a GM around to curb the excesses maybe. Sawyer and VD fighting a two-front war against degeneracy.

I think that the difference between the two is that while Sawyer wants to avoid broken combat systems, he also wants to avoid players mistakes and bad builds, while VD thinks that players should be able to figure the system by themselves in order to beat the game.

 

[Excidium II]

They are scripted only in the sense their behavior was programed, but by this standards, everything will be always scripted.

No no, I'm calling it "scripted events" instead of just scripts precisely to avoid this confusion. What I'm talking about is already programming player agency on a level below those scripts.

The relevant discussion is whether the accusations that the scripted events, reads “text-adventures and CYOA interactions” amounts to bad gameplay in cRPGs. I think they don’t.

They do when you share my view that CRPGs are RPGs in computer format.

 

[oneself]

There's a big difference between things and quest states having associated scripted events vs all player interactions with the game being done through a chain of scripted events using dialogue interface.

The correct approach is to program for player agency from the ground up, with all things carrying associated characteristics and functions that interact with other things. In the sense that you don't tell me to pick 1) leap wall to leap a wall in this specific scripted event, but there's a character and a wall and those things by themselves imply a relationship of one being able to leap over the other.

That way you don't write a billion lines CYOA to acknowledge all possible (that you can think of) player approaches in a particular quest, what is possible is decided by the things that are present in the scene and how they can interact with each other.

So if you have a quest to infiltrate some compound and retrieve an object, you simply put the compound together with walls, guards, dogs, doors, windows, tables, even the floor carries characteristics and functions such as being Diggable. Whatever hand scripting there is, is for narrative varibales like "player captured" or "object retrieved" or "object given to fulano" or whatever event you want to play out in a particular way.

Sounds curiously similar to any of the dozen survival style game made in the past year, and none of them offer the level of storytelling and consequently C&C complexity the most bland RPG offers. It is a nice fantasy, but it will remain a fantasy in the foreseeable future.

 

[Excidium II]

Yes, and it's not a coincidence because those survival games are concerned with (a degree of) simulation. Of course the similarities end there because they're sandboxes while a CRPG is a guided single player adventure.

 

[Infinitron]

Indeed. Sad that's more or less the point where CRPGs stopped.

 

[Fenix]

So simple and yet nobody can't see it... I guess that "illusion" thing plays a big part.
Maybe players should think more from dev's point of view... I don't know

Could you elaborate? Because I feel I missed your point.

There's a big difference between things and quest states having associated scripted events vs all player interactions with the game being done through a chain of scripted events using dialogue interface.

The correct approach is to program for player agency from the ground up, with all things carrying associated characteristics and functions that interact with other things. In the sense that you don't tell me to pick 1) leap wall to leap a wall in this specific scripted event, but there's a character and a wall and those things by themselves imply a relationship of one being able to leap over the other.

That way you don't write a billion lines CYOA to acknowledge all possible (that you can think of) player approaches in a particular quest, what is possible is decided by the things that are present in the scene and how they can interact with each other.

So if you have a quest to infiltrate some compound and retrieve an object, you simply put the compound together with walls, guards, dogs, doors, windows, tables, even the floor carries characteristics and functions such as being Diggable. Whatever hand scripting there is, is for narrative varibales like "player captured" or "object retrieved" or "object given to fulano" or whatever event you want to play out in a particular way.

What you describing is roguelikes - they works exactly ike this, but only because they have no fancy graphics, jumping a wall looks like @ moves through | and that's it in ASCII mode.
To set up a trap labirinth you need just to dig several pits and leave a path between them in order to make stupid zombie to fall in (Cataclysm).

 

[zool]

Hey Vault Dweller, is the final content update for AoD still planned to be released in December - and if so before or after Christmas? I've been itching for a new AoD playthrough since I finished DR but I'd rather wait for the final patch.

 

[Vault Dweller]

In December, most likely before Christmas.

 

[HoboForEternity]

yay christmas gift :3

 

[duanth123]

No no, I'm calling it "scripted events" instead of just scripts precisely to avoid this confusion. What I'm talking about is already programming player agency on a level below those scripts.

Are we all still pretending that VD's decision not to unpack these CYOA "scripted events" into their constituent parts was the result of some hard bitten design philosophy rather than the initial realities of their budget?

I would think that had VD the resources, he would have seriously considered creating the wall that leads to the courtyard to the lock and the door rather than simply writing about it.

A basic blueprint for the use of player agency in the manner you describe can found in AoD, Excidium II, to the extent there are particular player skills and the capacity and environs in which to use them; there's just no attached substance of gameplay.

 

[Excidium II]

No no, I'm calling it "scripted events" instead of just scripts precisely to avoid this confusion. What I'm talking about is already programming player agency on a level below those scripts.

Are we all still pretending that VD's decision not to unpack these CYOA "scripted events" into their constituent parts was the result of some hard bitten design philosophy rather than the initial realities of their budget?

Why pretend? It IS his design philosophy. This has nothing to do with budget.

Also AoD had a budget? As far as I know apart from VD's own expenses with contract artists and what not over the years, it was made by people who worked indefinitely to be paid later by sales.

A basic blueprint for the use of player agency in the manner you describe can found in AoD, Excidium II, to the extent there are particular player skills and the capacity and environs in which to use them; there's just no attached substance of gameplay.

So it doesn't.

 

[Vault Dweller]

No no, I'm calling it "scripted events" instead of just scripts precisely to avoid this confusion. What I'm talking about is already programming player agency on a level below those scripts.

Are we all still pretending that VD's decision not to unpack these CYOA "scripted events" into their constituent parts was the result of some hard bitten design philosophy rather than the initial realities of their budget?

Why pretend? It IS his design philosophy. This has nothing to do with budget.

Also AoD had a budget? As far as I know apart from VD's own expenses with contract artists and what not over the years, it was made by people who worked indefinitely to be paid later by sales.

So I suppose we could have added 5 more years to the development schedule. After all we had no real budget so what difference extra years make, right?