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Age of Wonders 3

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MilesBeyond

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716
I really like this game now, with both expansions and patched. Between this and Endless Legend the tb fantasy strategies stand strong and I don't care all that much about the ubi treatment that HoMM is getting. The combat is good and despite having less units in a stack it fixes the biggest flaw of the previous games which was the silly randomness. Flying units have declined, but they're still very useful and powerful through their flanking potential. The heroes are good too, with superior development system from AoW I and while very powerful, not insanely op as in the previous installments. I didn't play the game much on release or in multi (all the games are locked when I try), but right now I really don't see the tier IV spam everyone was complaining about. Even tier I units stay useful for quite a long time when properly used and levelled and tier IV stuff is too expensive to keep spamming it all the time.

Yes. IMHO improving T4 spam is one of the things AoW 3 really did well. It's still there, to an extent, but it's nowhere near as prominent as it was in SM or AoW 1, and I think this is largely due to all attacks auto-hitting - because it means that even the weakest unit is guaranteed to inflict at least some damage on the strongest (assuming immunities don't come into play). I would say that now there's a distinct system where, generally speaking, 2 T1 units can bring down a T2 unit, 4 T1s can bring down a T3, and 6 T1s can bring down a T4. This is a huge (and hugely welcome) change from the days when a lone T4 could carve its way through multiple stacks of T1 units like a knife through butter.

With every installment, the gaps between the tiers has been slowly closing. AoW SM with having retaliations drain movement, and now 3 with all attacks hitting, flanking mechanics, etc. I love it because for the first time in a 4X game, I feel like there's actually something of a viable choice between fielding vast armies of soldiers, or smaller forces of elite troops and fantastic monsters. Actually, another big thing 3 changed for that is adding in several ways to manage unit upkeep, since in the previous games that was another huge obstacle for fielding larger armies of trash units. I remember how frustrated I was when I found out that upkeep costs were hardcoded in SM. I wanted to mod the game to have my Goblin hordes, dammit!

Three things drag it down though:
1. Less of everything syndrome that plagues so many sequels of classic games. Despite adding halfings, frostlings and tigrans there are still quite a few races missing compared to previous games. It does have minor factions with their separate building and unit rosters which is a cool addition.

Mostly disagree. While I definitely feel that AoW 3 could only benefit from having more races, I feel that it still ends up having more content than previous games - just the content is spread to different areas, in particular the classes. I actually really enjoy the introduction of classes, because to me it adds more replayability. I found that with SM once I got to a certain skill level my games would all look the same, because unless I was RPing I'd be using migration and race relations and spell trading so that I'd end up having the same optimal force every game, no matter what race and spheres I started with.

Also, patches have done a great job of diversifying class units. I remember patch 1.2 was when I first began to really like this game, because that's when they began to give a lot of different distinctions to the different class units (e.g. Human Scoundrels getting Throw Net, Draconian Evangelists getting a ranged attack, High Elf class units with Shortbows getting Longbows instead, etc). Suddenly class units stopped feeling like a copypasta between the races and instead each racial class unit began to take on a life of its own. Human, Orc, and Dwarf Assassins now all felt and played differently. While I feel that it's not until EL that AoW 3 really came into its own, 1.2 was the point where I said "Wow, this game is actually awesome"

2. Graphics. It's another case of classic series that had wonderful, clear and functional 2d graphics changed into... that. I really can't see shit on strategic map sometimes, checking for stacks on the minimap or zoomed out cloth map despite the fact that they're waving those huge flags. And I think I already wrote that somewhere, but this leader generation thingy is really hilarious in a bad way, some of its creations are utterly prosperian. It's very well optimized at least, runs like a charm with everything on max and the loading times are really short.

Agree. I'm often frustrated by the graphics sometimes obfuscate details. Especially given how climate and terrain features are so much more important in this game, it can sometimes be hard to tell at a glance what's what (especially the difference between fertile plains and barrens on some climates). Not to mention the fact that fighting in dense forests or jungles can sometimes be a pain due to it being difficult to see around some of the trees. Good call on the optimization, though. I hadn't even noticed it but yeah even in the late game it seems to still run pretty well. AoW has always been pretty good for that, I feel.

3. Magic. Yeah, magic is a bit disappointing in AoW III. No crazy strategic map spells, very few options and most of them are boring city enchantments, like +1 domain radius or +100 happiness/pop growth. No strategic map unit enchantments either. In combat you basically just use the same buffs/debuffs all the time, with some of them much better than all the rest (like the blind debuff for example or the ranged unit buff that removes range and obstacle penalties and turns some units into absolute rapetrains).

Finally! I've been complaining both here and on the official forums for ages now about how sad I am to see strategic unit enchants gone and you're the first person I've encountered who backs me up on it. I miss that a ton. I just loved the feeling of taking your little Goblin Spearman who somehow managed to survive to gold medal and rewarding him with an Enchanted Weapon or Stone Skin. Plus the way you could use more powerful enchantments to do amazing things. Like in SM, taking Life magic to give all your T4s Resurgence. Oh man.

I mean, I get why they're gone. The reason they gave is because they couldn't teach the AI to use it properly, and this was definitely a huge issue in past games. All you have to do is just wait until the end of the turn before attacking and often the AI wouldn't cast any spells because they'd wasted all their casting points on enchanting some border garrison somewhere. And I get that it's really difficult to program an AI to intelligently use enchants. I mean even as a player I have no idea how I'd write a strategy guide for when and why to enchant units. For me it's always been, when it's time to enchant, you just know. There's something intuitive about it that I can't really express.

The lack of crazy strategic map spells has always been a slight disappointment with AoW in general, as far as I'm concerned. The only one that comes to mind is Flood and the Mastery spells from AoW 1. I guess maybe the Mastery spells from AoW SM, but they always felt less crazy (despite being arguably far more powerful, but whatever). I mean, I get that AoW has always been intended to represent a smaller scale than MoM, but still. Now that's a game that had some seriously awesome strategic map spells. Nothing like them in the AoW series - or, come to think of it, really any other 4X series. I feel like the closest is Age of Death in AoW 3 to MoM's Zombie Mastery.
 
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Is there any news on whether Triumph is working on another expansion for this? At this point the game feels pretty good, but more classes and races would always be welcome.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
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Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,777
Wouldn't count on it. There's been no news and they've just released the modding tools. I would welcome one more though, definitely. Both expansions were really good and a step in the right direction.
 

GrainWetski

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Oct 17, 2012
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So does the AI "use maphack" in this game or am I just unlucky? They "snake" back and forth whenever I move my armies to defend my cities, blatantly trying to avoid me.. I can't say it's very fun because of it.
 

Raghar

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Messages
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Not sure. They could have concealed units somewhere. But, at least they don't raze theirs own cities just to slow you down. And theirs plant city everywhere, combined with bug that allowed in certain situations to place cities too close together, well it created interesting army swarms. They patched that behaviour out as well. But they give it certain stuff for free after about 30-50 turns. (Just to be sure it will not be handicapped...)
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
So does the AI "use maphack" in this game or am I just unlucky? They "snake" back and forth whenever I move my armies to defend my cities, blatantly trying to avoid me.. I can't say it's very fun because of it.

They're definitely not omniscient. I'm not sure if you're getting unlucky or if the AI has got some sort of scouting edge on you. If it's a Rogue then Network of Scrying Eyes can definitely result in that sort of behaviour. However, generally speaking I don't see that sort of thing too often.

In any case, the AI cheats, but not maphack levels of cheating.

Actually, who's the AI? IIRC some independents have different rules. At least, I know Concealment will never work against certain types of independents.
 

GrainWetski

Arcane
Joined
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5,365
They're definitely not omniscient. I'm not sure if you're getting unlucky or if the AI has got some sort of scouting edge on you. If it's a Rogue then Network of Scrying Eyes can definitely result in that sort of behaviour. However, generally speaking I don't see that sort of thing too often.

In any case, the AI cheats, but not maphack levels of cheating.

Actually, who's the AI? IIRC some independents have different rules. At least, I know Concealment will never work against certain types of independents.

It's a Theocrat on the King difficulty. Guess I'll try playing on that game again and see if it happens more.
 

GrainWetski

Arcane
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Oct 17, 2012
Messages
5,365
Yeah, had True Sight and everything. No units close. He suddenly just stopped doing it. Very strange.

Just about to finish up my Arch Druid game. Horned Gods are so utterly ridiculous against the AI. They don't know what to do against my main hero + only Horned Gods army(Got 13 of them running around obliterating everything right now. Boring and "easily" countered by a human player, I know). First turn I just summon a wall of the boars and they usually run into it and then get stunned + eaten alive the next turn or stay behind their wall while I nuke them with the lightning bolts. Kind of feels like cheating.
 
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the_shadow

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So what's the verdict on AoW3? I'm a huge fan of AoW2, and am considering trying the sequel.
 

KoolNoodles

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So what's the verdict on AoW3? I'm a huge fan of AoW2, and am considering trying the sequel.

Probably most people who stuck around to play it after the patches and expansion would say good but not great. People who played it when it was released and then dropped it would say it is bad. People who love 2D graphics would say it is bad. Etc.

It's not exactly AoW2, so if you want that exact experience, but with updated graphics/controls etc., you won't get it.

So, 4/5 stars. At release it was more like 3/5.
 

sser

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So what's the verdict on AoW3? I'm a huge fan of AoW2, and am considering trying the sequel.

Only good with the expansions as there is a great deal of content to be had with the two expacs. Combat is front and center as usual. Now if we could just get a game with Endless Legend's empire management and AoW3's battles...
 

MilesBeyond

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So what's the verdict on AoW3? I'm a huge fan of AoW2, and am considering trying the sequel.

Whether AoW 3 is the best game in the series or not is something that depends on my mood but there are quite a few days where I do think it's the best so that's got to count for something. In any case, I think it definitely makes a lot of solid improvements on past games.

Basically it depends on what you liked about AoW SM (I'm assuming you're using AoW 2 to mean AoW SM because I can't imagine anyone being a huge fan of AoW 2). In terms of combat, AoW 3 is IMHO maybe the best in its genre (i.e. TBS games that aren't war games). In terms of content... that's up for debate. Whether 9 races and 7 classes is more content than 15 races depends on how you look at things. In terms of AI, it's roughly on the same level. Slightly more intelligent than AoW 1, not really noticeably better or worse than SM.

One of the things I really enjoy in AoW 3 compared to its predecessors is that T4 spam and uberheroes have both become noticeably weaker. In AoW 1 certainly and AoW SM to a smaller extent, a high-level hero or level 4 unit could wade through stacks upon stacks of T1 or even T2 units. That's not the case anymore - or at least, it's not as exaggerated as it was in past games.

Racial diversity is also nice. There's a lot less races and those races have less units but the units that they do have are very distinct. In SM races could basically be divided into two groups: The new races (Tigrans, Draconians, Syrons, Nomads, and Shadow Demons) which were all pretty unique, and the ten recurring races from AoW 1, which were depressingly similar - far moreso than AoW 1. I mean, when your Halfling Swordsman and Orc Axeman are statistically identical, that's not a good thing. AoW 3 has less racial units, but even the bog standard infantry usually ends up feeling fairly distinct.

It's not a bad looking game but the visuals do at times feel a bit cluttered - though I felt the same about SM and plenty of people here seem to have loved its visuals, so YMMV. In general, though, it's probably not something you're going to walk away from thinking "Dang, that's a good-looking game."


Actually, now that I really stop and think about it, IMHO the amount of races is really the only thing AoW SM does better than AoW 3. In just about every other category I'd pick AoW 3. Even then I'd argue that AoW 3 has more overall variety than AoW SM, it's just reflected outside of the races.
 

MilesBeyond

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Only good with the expansions as there is a great deal of content to be had with the two expacs. Combat is front and center as usual. Now if we could just get a game with Endless Legend's empire management and AoW3's battles...

I actually don't know how I feel about that. To me, the reason why AoW in general and AoW 3 in particular has always had such great combat is because the series is so narrowly focused on it. I mean I like the idea in theory as some sort of hypothetical amazing game, but in practice I can't think of many games that managed to marry satisfying empire building with satisfying combat.
 

octavius

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I actually don't know how I feel about that. To me, the reason why AoW in general and AoW 3 in particular has always had such great combat is because the series is so narrowly focused on it. I mean I like the idea in theory as some sort of hypothetical amazing game, but in practice I can't think of many games that managed to marry satisfying empire building with satisfying combat.

To me AoW:SM came close to being the perfect game. It only lacks one vital ingredient - a good AI.
 
Unwanted
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I wouldn't call the visuals of AoW3 cretinous because even as a teen I would have found this garbage distasteful. Even with what you listed, there is not a single reason to choose AoW3 over SM. Well you call AoW3's combat the best thing outside of wargame, that's just not true.
 

the_shadow

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Basically it depends on what you liked about AoW SM (I'm assuming you're using AoW 2 to mean AoW SM because I can't imagine anyone being a huge fan of AoW 2)

I'm not sure why AoW 2 is considered so inferior to Shadow Magic. I've played both, and they are near identical, except for the addition of 3 races and a few units/spells. I think the campaign in AoW 2 vanilla was more solid as well.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Feb 15, 2012
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Yeah, people usually go way over the top when comparing AoW2 and SM.

And as for the combat I do actually think that AoW3 is the best in the series. Smaller stacks suck, but dropping the randomness wins the day. I enjoyed AoW 1, 2 and SM, but really, a combat where you can play the same encounter twice in exactly the same way and come out with two completely different results is not a good combat. The ragequit potential in the older games in the series was freaking huge, with single AI cavalry unit destroying 3-4 unit stacks of my archers without taking a hit while laughing and farting in my face, oh god it wasn't heaven.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Honestly, the only thing I remember from AoW2 campaigns was raping everything with my heroes. Don't think any sort or shape of boat would help there. But it was a good cheese.
 

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