AoD merchants quests

[Vault Dweller]

The factions are old and trace their origins to the Empire days. Once the merchants guild was just that - a guild of traders, one of many. Eventually the guild absorbed other guilds or eliminated them. With money and influence came new opportunities. Why compete with other traders when you can force them to join the program or eliminate them? Why share markets when you can dominate them? Why sell cheaper when you can drive the prices up?

As for starting up, as you can see from the quest, Linos tells you that he has enough traders and clerks. He needs people who will get things done. Things that the guild will benefit from.

 

[the grim one]

Soooo, this is the first time i actually felt that I have something intelligent to say. Behold and wonder:

I'm still suggesting the following:

Quest #2

- the PC can use the disguise skill to make himself somebody who has a fake history of buying and selling ore (maybe in service of some noble in a distant town - the character could use the lore skill to forge a document proving this) or create some other background for the thief master to believe in.

We can do that.

Another idea is that if you disguise yourself when working against a particular faction and you manage to complete the task, you should not suffer any repercussion or reputation hit, since no one can identify you.
If the option to work under disguise doesn't present itself too often, this (no penalty) could be true for every quest in which you use it.

Quest #3

- If the PC is intelligent or experienced enough, he should be able to realize that the procurator is probably looking for people to punish. He could appeal to Linos and ask for some extra money that he could use to buy an assassin to kill the procurator. The assassination contract wouldn't be cheap.

Doesn't sound logical. Since Linos is trying to shift the blame on you, why would he give you money? If you kill the procurator, well, it's a different story, and you can always be blamed for that later. The way I see it, only Linos can order the assassination, but he would wait for you to talk to Damias first and see what happens. You may handle his problem or he may have to place an order to take care of two people, not one.

Then why not put an Intelligence check, and if it is passed, then the player can ask the other merchants questions about Linos and be given some hints regarding the betrayal - something like Linos has antecedents of backstabbing his associates in order to save his own skin? He can also find out that Damias has an escort if he asks the right people (someone at the bar, perhaps) and is intelligent enough.
What I mean, is it seems unfair for a trader to have to go through a fight against 2 opponents, when probably he is not well suited for the task. Smarter characters should have some means of avoiding this. Why not having an option to separate Damias from his guard? Or even hiring someone to go to the meeting with him, if the player finds out how things really are (see above).
And how about confronting Linos about that?

Ok, so these were some ideas that came through my mind; maybe you find something usefull, VD. Anyway, it looks like you are doing a great job. I wish you best of luck!

 

[Elhoim]

What I mean, is it seems unfair for a trader to have to go through a fight against 2 opponents, when probably he is not well suited for the task. Smarter characters should have some means of avoiding this.

Well, sidiing with Damias is the smart choice and with it you avoid fighting against 2 opponents.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Another idea is that if you disguise yourself when working against a particular faction and you manage to complete the task, you should not suffer any repercussion or reputation hit, since no one can identify you.

The word gets around. You are a member of a large organization. You do high profile things and grow in ranks. What are the odds that you can keep your activities a secret?

What I mean, is it seems unfair for a trader to have to go through a fight against 2 opponents, when probably he is not well suited for the task.

Then join him.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Anyway, can we have some more opinions here?

a) What do you think of this questline?
b) What would be good ways to improve it? Not minor tweaks, but something different.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I don't want to read the quests, so maybe my input is useless but here are a few points that came to my mind based on the later discussion:

- Being the man for hire for the merchants is good for the beginning, but I think it would be important to establish pretty soon an extended motivation for the player to pursue a career in this faction. I assume the topic of the merchants is power through control of the economy. Then it should become clear to the player how his association with the guild can open doors and improve his standing.

- I think that even if joining the merchants doen't mean being a merchant myself, it should come with an insight into the economical side of your gameworld. Use the quests to give the player an improved insight into the economic underpinnings of the various places and factions, the origin and making of certain goods, why some things are rare and valuable and other not. It's one way to add flavor to the world, and the guild will probably attract players with a basic interest in this kind of stuff.

- I always like internal power struggle. Since confronting the thieves seems a topic for Linos, maybe there is another group within the merchants that finds this a bad idea, and has more of a focus on establishing and strengthening economic ties to the far reaches of the former empire, providing opportunities for the diplomatic player?

 

[Vault Dweller]

- I always like internal power struggle. Since confronting the thieves seems a topic for Linos, maybe there is another group within the merchants that finds this a bad idea, and has more of a focus on establishing and strengthening economic ties to the far reaches of the former empire, providing opportunities for the diplomatic player?

See the third quest. Reading 3 quests out of 100+ quests won't kill you. Come on, Ghan. I really need to know whether to keep them with some tweaks or throw them out and do something different.

 

[Lingwe]

Could you be able to try and recover the shipment in the first quest, thus causing Linos to get angry with you for ruining his chances of blowing the shipment up in the second quest?

(I wasn't quite sure how Linos gets the explosive powder in the barrels, did he get access to the iron ore before hand?)

 

[Helton]

b) What would be good ways to improve it? Not minor tweaks, but something different.

Did you miss my suggestions?

 

[sqeecoo]

I really need to know whether to keep them with some tweaks or throw them out and do something different.

Keep them. They are great. With a few tweaks, perfect.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Could you be able to try and recover the shipment in the first quest, thus causing Linos to get angry with you for ruining his chances of blowing the shipment up in the second quest?

(I wasn't quite sure how Linos gets the explosive powder in the barrels, did he get access to the iron ore before hand?)

One of the merchants guild's trader (remember that bit about the thieves guild's network reaching everywhere) has the shipment. That's how Linos is able to tamper with the shipment. After the second quest the trader is found dead.

Did you miss my suggestions?

No. You can talk to other traders, asking for a good deal, and eventually if you are pointed to Cado's direction. Danos doesn't sell the ore openly.

 

[the grim one]

I like the quests. They are logical, varied, there are more ways to complete them and you can do that without fighting. There's no need to change them.

Besides, I guess it took you some time to create them and I don't think someone can come with better ones without putting serious work/thinking into it (- which I don't see happening anytime soon).

 

[Naked Ninja]

My first suggestion is put more movement into the quests. I don't know how the later ones go but if you imagine them as "nodes", they seem to only have 2 steps. Go from A, to B, then back to A. You can choose options at B, sure, but they all sort of consist of aspects of a single node.

As an example, make the player talk to Danos, realize he is a member of the merchants guild, and give the player the option to try blackmail him. You can tell Linos it was someone else for a sum (he will act quickly to make it seem like the shipment was stolen by an unlucky rival), which gets you in with the thieves and the merchants at the same time. With appropriate chances that Danos tries to kill you instead, or Linos realises something is up, of course .

Later the thieves can fake the explosion (same outcome except the courtean doesn't die. However they set it up to piss off the Noble Houses anyway, thus leading to quest 3 with the investigator guy)

Or in quest 3, making it so that Damais hasn't already got enough proof of Linos actions and wishes you to set him up. You need to acquire documents showing how Linos has diverted excessive guild resources to his personal crusade or something (merchants are all about the bottom line ). It seems a bit jarring to me how quickly he offers you leadership of a new guild. However if you helped him take down Linos, then I could understand. (and as another alternative, you can then triple cross Damais, inform Linos, help him escape, and gain an ally who helps you in the future. Maybe another Noble house shelters him and you run into him later)

All just ideas. Sounds good so far :D

 

[Vault Dweller]

My first suggestion is put more movement into the quests. I don't know how the later ones go but if you imagine them as "nodes", they seem to only have 2 steps. Go from A, to B, then back to A. You can choose options at B, sure, but they all sort of consist of aspects of a single node.

I strongly dislike moving back and forth to handle quests. ToEE's Hommlet is a great example of why going back and forth between NPCs tend to suck all the fun out of games. Call it a personal preference.

What I had before (but removed for reasons now unknown) is an option to double-cross the merchants guild. Basically, you tell Cado that you're working for the guild and offer him an opportunity to make some serious money.

If he agrees, Cado switches the shipments and the ore goes to Maadoran, while the explosives blow up the merchants guild. Then Damias shows up to deal with the mess and find out who was responsible. Linos and a few traders who survived are operating from the inn. Etc.

I guess I thought that it was too dramatic and your relatively innocent attempt to make a few bucks on the side ends up blowing up the guild. We also had a thieves quest where your mistake leads to the entire guild being raided and killed, but people didn't respond positively to that. Anyway, should I put it back since there are no better suggestions?

As an example, make the player talk to Danos, realize he is a member of the merchants guild, and give the player the option to try blackmail him.

We had this option but it led nowhere. If you can't find where the shipment is you're useless to Linos, so you might as well pack your stuff and move to a different town (if you want to keep working for the guild).

Or in quest 3, making it so that Damais hasn't already got enough proof of Linos actions and wishes you to set him up. You need to acquire documents showing how Linos has diverted excessive guild resources to his personal crusade or something (merchants are all about the bottom line ).

A good option, but goes a bit against Damias' personality. He doesn't waste time. Linos was the guildmaster, so in Damias' view in the end it's Linos' fault.

It seems a bit jarring to me how quickly he offers you leadership of a new guild.

Not leadership. He merely offers you to continue your services in a less fucked up environment because in his opinion you're salvageable.

 

[Naked Ninja]

I strongly dislike moving back and forth to handle quests. ToEE's Hommlet is a great example of why going back and forth between NPCs tend to suck all the fun out of games. Call it a personal preference.

Movement was probably the wrong word, I agree playing running boy is not fun. What I meant was putting in more decision points into the quest. Ie more situations for the player to evaluate. Like I said, you start at A, got to B and make a decision, then back to A. The fun point is really B. I'd suggest splitting it somehow, to make at least 2 decision points.

What I had before (but removed for reasons now unknown) is an option to double-cross the merchants guild. Basically, you tell Cado that you're working for the guild and offer him an opportunity to make some serious money.

If he agrees, Cado switches the shipments and the ore goes to Maadoran, while the explosives blow up the merchants guild. Then Damias shows up to deal with the mess and find out who was responsible. Linos and a few traders who survived are operating from the inn. Etc.

I guess I thought that it was too dramatic and your relatively innocent attempt to make a few bucks on the side ends up blowing up the guild. We also had a thieves quest where your mistake leads to the entire guild being raided and killed, but people didn't respond positively to that. Anyway, should I put it back since there are no better suggestions?

That is too dramatic. Things like wrecking an entire guild should happen because a player makes a conscious decision which they know will lead to that path, otherwise I don't think anyone will like it. I'd suggest something like this rather :

The thieves stage it so that the shipment blows up while traveling. Black powder isn't that stable, an unfortunate accident, sparks from a fire blew into the boxes, etc. Linos fumes that his plan failed but can't prove anything but bad luck was involved. It happens to kill a scion of House X who was traveling with the caravan, so the Nobles are still pissed, the guy comes to investigate, and everything carries on.

It shouldn't be that simple to bring down a guild house, to have a stranger wander in and mess everything up. I'm thinking smaller consequences. Double cross the merchants guild and the thieves owe you one. Later in the game there might be a way to call in that favor. Additionally you can make it so that 5 quests or so down the line someone in the merchants guild discovers evidence of your treachery and you must deal with/bribe him to stay silent. Something you did in the beginning coming back to haunt you is pure awesomeness.

We had this option but it led nowhere. If you can't find where the shipment is you're useless to Linos, so you might as well pack your stuff and move to a different town (if you want to keep working for the guild).

Well, the thieves could help him setup another merchant. The innocent guy protests, but no one believes him of course. They find him dead in an alley. So it looks like you have found out who stole the shipments.


I'm not saying I don't like what you've shown though, especially since the beginning quests should be somewhat simpler.

 

[John Yossarian]

After VD's clarification on the way the Merchant Guild operates, I don't really see the problem with not having trade skill checks, and I don't think the lack of more options is that bad, so I say keep them.
However isn't it a little contradictory (especially after Linos himself tells you ) for your job to be a manipulator type (which would involve dialogue skills mostly) and then for Linos to increase your Trade skill twice as much as your Persuasion? Wouldn't it be much more useful if he taught you Bluff, Streetwise or, at least, 10 Persuasion and 5 Trade?

 

[Vault Dweller]

After VD's clarification on the way the Merchant Guild operates, I don't really see the problem with not having trade skill checks, and I don't think the lack of more options is that bad, so I say keep them.
However isn't it a little contradictory (especially after Linos himself tells you ) for your job to be a manipulator type (which would involve dialogue skills mostly) and then for Linos to increase your Trade skill twice as much as your Persuasion? Wouldn't it be much more useful if he taught you Bluff, Streetwise or, at least, 10 Persuasion and 5 Trade?

Easier to teach. Probably reflects my own experience. I train or oversee trainings a lot and it's *much* easier to teach someone basic negotiation principles than how to be persuasive.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That is too dramatic.

Very choice&consequence-y.

Things like wrecking an entire guild should happen because a player makes a conscious decision which they know will lead to that path, otherwise I don't think anyone will like it.

Few people did, so no arguing here. However, sometimes a small mistake, a mistake you may be completely unaware of, can lead to big and often dramatic consequences. I mean, you basically betrayed your guild. Once you made that decision, you should expect some righteous retribution, no? In different forms, of course.

The thieves stage it so that the shipment blows up while traveling....

It's good, but kinda meek.

It shouldn't be that simple to bring down a guild house, to have a stranger wander in and mess everything up.

Why not?

Something you did in the beginning coming back to haunt you is pure awesomeness.

That's nice indeed. I don't think we have anything of that sort.

Well, the thieves could help him setup another merchant. The innocent guy protests, but no one believes him of course. They find him dead in an alley. So it looks like you have found out who stole the shipments.

Linos needs the shipment. Not who stole it. Besides, in CRPGs setting up an innocent guy and getting him killed doesn't have the same emotional impact as reading something like that in a book, for example. Unless the character is important to you (PST party members) and setting one up is a personal and real sacrifice.

I'm not saying I don't like what you've shown though, especially since the beginning quests should be somewhat simpler.

We throw the player into the frying pan right away.

 

[Claw]

I guess I thought that it was too dramatic and your relatively innocent attempt to make a few bucks on the side ends up blowing up the guild.

Actually, that sounds pretty cool to me.

We also had a thieves quest where your mistake leads to the entire guild being raided and killed, but people didn't respond positively to that. Anyway, should I put it back since there are no better suggestions?

Aww man, you removed it? Many people just can't deal with unforseen consequences, see comments to that feature in The Witcher.

 

[Vault Dweller]

We can put it back. That's what the polishing period is about. So far we have two opinions. Anybody else likes having opinions?

For reference and spoilers (and I'm pretty sure I mentioned it before): in the thieves first questline, you are sent to steal a scroll from the merchants guild. An unknown client commissioned the theft through your guildmaster. You are told not to open the scroll (or the guild doesn't get paid) and deliver it to the guildmaster. If you do that, the guild gets raided and most people end up dead. If you open the scroll, you realize that it's not a minor matter and that the guild must prepare for a backlash.

As for small things leading to big shitstorms, anyone's old enough to remember Three Days of the Condor?

"Joe Turner (Robert Redford) is a CIA employee who works in a clandestine office in New York City. He is not a field agent, and indeed is disdainful of Agency discipline; his job is to read books, newspapers, and magazines from around the world, looking for hidden meanings. As part of his duties, Turner files a report to CIA headquarters on a low-quality thriller novel his office has been reading, pointing out strange plot elements therein, and the unusual assortment of languages in which the book has been translated (Arabic, but not French, for example).

The movie begins on the day in which Turner expects a response to his report. While he is out getting lunch, a group of armed men, led by an Alsatian assassin later identified as Joubert (Max von Sydow), executes everyone in the office. Turner returns, realizes he is in grave danger, and calls an emergency telephone number...."

 

[Naked Ninja]

Very choice&consequence-y.

While thats true the consequence outweighs the meaningfulness of the choice to the point that it would probably be loaded around, especially if it is in the beginning. This is still a game after all and a player joined the thieves for a reason, because thats the style they are interested in.

If you had an elaborate plot which leads to conspirators offering the player a chance to help them, which in turn leads to the fall of most of the guild, cool. Its a weighty decision, and the choice feels like it has deep and far reaching impact. If you're just starting out, your natural curiosity makes you want to read the scroll, and it leads to cutting off the entire faction line you wanted to follow, I don't think it would feel so awesome. I think people would try it so they know what the scroll says then load around it, for the most part. Maybe not some of the Codexers, but I think a lot of others would.

Few people did, so no arguing here. However, sometimes a small mistake, a mistake you may be completely unaware of, can lead to big and often dramatic consequences. I mean, you basically betrayed your guild. Once you made that decision, you should expect some righteous retribution, no? In different forms, of course.

The problem is the consequence cuts off gameplay instead of spicing it up. If you made a foe who makes life difficult at a later point, awesome. Cutting off the faction line, not so much.

Why not?

Well, I'd expect that if it were that easy their rivals would have bribed some other sap to do it by now.

Linos needs the shipment. Not who stole it. Besides, in CRPGs setting up an innocent guy and getting him killed doesn't have the same emotional impact as reading something like that in a book, for example. Unless the character is important to you (PST party members) and setting one up is a personal and real sacrifice.

Maybe not, but thats because there are rarely any consequences to the player for that kind of action with non-party members. But if the guys brother seeks vengence (or something less cliched)....

 

[Lumpy]

I don't like that, for several reasons.
Firstly, many people will probably save, open the scroll to read what's inside, then reload. But if, when opening the scroll, it becomes obvious that it's the better choice, they're just going to play along with that. The whole point of the thing gets lost.
For the people who aren't into save-load-itis, not opening the scroll makes most sense, since the player has absolutely no reason to do so, as it becomes worthless once you open it. So going with the only logical option punishes the player.
I would suggest somehow informing the player that screwing up the job and opening the scroll might be better. Give him a reason to do it, some way of knowing the scroll might be suspicious. Then, it becomes an actual decision - do you go for the reward and hope nothing bad really happens, or do you forget about the money and think about your own safety?

Also, there was a similar quest in PST - Morridor's Box. You can do the long quest to exorcise it, or you can risk opening it. But what's the risk, when you can immediately reload if the situation ends up being too bad? A long term consequence would have been better - you'd have no idea what is going to happen even if you save and open it, so it still remains a risky thing.

 

[Sodomy]

My thoughts:
1. Keep the consequences for that theives guild quest. Yeah, the "sealed letter" has gotten cliche (it's been used by U7-1, PS:T, Gothic 2 NOTR, Arcanum, and PtD at the very least, and I seem to recall one of the Geneforges using it), but the fact that it's something minor is an interesting twist, as is the more serious than the norm consequence (normally, you just get an easy fight, or get told "bad boy! you shouldn't have opened it!").

2. Use a larger variety of skills in the merchant's quests. There's too many persuasion checks; how about varying it up with some bluff or intimidate options? Also, how about a streetwise check or two- after all, you're dealing with the thieves guild, and Cado therefore isn't likely to be the most honest guy in the world. It might be interesting to let the player think they've completed a quest if they've failed a streetwise check, but give bad info back to Linos, with interesting consequences.

 

[Jora]

I like the letter-stealing quest and its consequences. Makes the world feel all the more dynamic. Breaking into the merchants guild sounds fun and it's great when the object you steal has actual value and the Commercium is willing to act to protect its secrets.

SPOILERS
It works in the assassin questline, why not in this one? The assassins didn't know killing Bull would so enrage the Imperial Guards. If you aren't cautious enough and cross lines that shouldn't be crossed, someone will come after you in the merciless post-apocalyptic world.
/SPOILERS

 

[Elhoim]

I don't like it for some of the reasons mentioned above:

While thats true the consequence outweighs the meaningfulness of the choice to the point that it would probably be loaded around, especially if it is in the beginning.

Firstly, many people will probably save, open the scroll to read what's inside, then reload. But if, when opening the scroll, it becomes obvious that it's the better choice, they're just going to play along with that. The whole point of the thing gets lost.
For the people who aren't into save-load-itis, not opening the scroll makes most sense, since the player has absolutely no reason to do so, as it becomes worthless once you open it. So going with the only logical option punishes the player.