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Are Bethesda Fallout promotional videos canon? Are the games themselves canon? Discuss!

Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
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Location
Chicago, IL, Kwa
Copyright was a mistake.


Uh... no, not at all. It was a smart and necessary thing for the time it was created; the problem we're living with is that it hasn't evolved or adapted at all in the intervening century. There are multiple forms of new media that have cropped up, information has been siloed and monetized, and the semi-entrepreneurial nature of creative businesses in the early 20th century has been replaced by the monopolies of Disney, Facebook, et al. Copyright law was created as a means of protecting and rewarding creativity and ingenuity, but the "advances" of the last century have perverted it into a tool to instead bludgeon them down with. The legislative and regulatory bodies that initially created copyright law have ossified, atrophied, and self-mutilated into institutions incapable of even recognizing the need for adjustment.
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
4,131
Location
Chicago, IL, Kwa
Copyright was a mistake.
Humorously, TES lore is actually a fairly decent example of what such a scenario might look a bit like. Due to the nature of TES lore, Kirkbride is still regarded as being an authoritative voice despite not having worked on a TES title in years.


Didn't Skyrim (or some other post-Kirkbride BGS thing) make it canon that the Nerevarine was the reincarnation of Indoril and remove any (intended) ambiguity about it?

that's patents
It's both. Don't be an objectivist pedant.
 

Cael

Arcane
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,959
Rusty is correct. A lot of you guys are making the argument that because something Bethesda did is retarded and doesn’t make logical sense that means it’s not canon. That is unfortunately not how canon works. FO4 Ghoul kid who spent centuries in a fridge and didn’t go feral is canon even though it’s retarded. If Bethesda says those videos are actual videos Vault-Tec made in-universe than it is canon they are.

Canon is whatever the IP owner says it is. Doesn’t mean it’s not stupid or that it doesn’t break the lore, but we already crossed that threshold when FO3 was released.
This argument implies that anything that "Bethesda" puts out is automatically canon regardless of whoever made it, and more importantly, wrote it.
This is correct. That is the main reason why the Star Wars EU was curated and Lucas had a hierarchy of which source is more authoritative than the others (i.e., movies being the highest authority).

If the bath turd didn't curate their stuff properly and it ends up as a dog's breakfast, that is their own fault. However, the dog's breakfast is still canon.

If you want to create a franchise that is consistent, make sure you have final say as to what becomes official (like Lucas did).
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Rusty is correct. A lot of you guys are making the argument that because something Bethesda did is retarded and doesn’t make logical sense that means it’s not canon. That is unfortunately not how canon works. FO4 Ghoul kid who spent centuries in a fridge and didn’t go feral is canon even though it’s retarded. If Bethesda says those videos are actual videos Vault-Tec made in-universe than it is canon they are.

Canon is whatever the IP owner says it is. Doesn’t mean it’s not stupid or that it doesn’t break the lore, but we already crossed that threshold when FO3 was released.
This argument implies that anything that "Bethesda" puts out is automatically canon regardless of whoever made it, and more importantly, wrote it.
This is correct. That is the main reason why the Star Wars EU was curated and Lucas had a hierarchy of which source is more authoritative than the others (i.e., movies being the highest authority).

If the bath turd didn't curate their stuff properly and it ends up as a dog's breakfast, that is their own fault. However, the dog's breakfast is still canon.

If you want to create a franchise that is consistent, make sure you have final say as to what becomes official (like Lucas did).
They did a really good job managing all that stuff though. That asian guy whoever who managed an entire database for george lucas to keep track of it. George Lucas admitted he's never interacted with EU material at all except to get ideas.
 

Testownia

Guest
"Canon" is everything contained within products/materials released by the I.P. holders. Anything outside of them is fan-fiction/head-canon. Is it that difficult a concept to grasp? Also, the idea that all the information about the events within a novel/movie etc. must only be contained within said product is utterly retarded, and was brought about by RedLetterMedia and their mindless drones.

If you told the same thing to Tolkien, for example, he'd roll in his grave.
 

Cael

Arcane
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,959
Rusty is correct. A lot of you guys are making the argument that because something Bethesda did is retarded and doesn’t make logical sense that means it’s not canon. That is unfortunately not how canon works. FO4 Ghoul kid who spent centuries in a fridge and didn’t go feral is canon even though it’s retarded. If Bethesda says those videos are actual videos Vault-Tec made in-universe than it is canon they are.

Canon is whatever the IP owner says it is. Doesn’t mean it’s not stupid or that it doesn’t break the lore, but we already crossed that threshold when FO3 was released.
This argument implies that anything that "Bethesda" puts out is automatically canon regardless of whoever made it, and more importantly, wrote it.
This is correct. That is the main reason why the Star Wars EU was curated and Lucas had a hierarchy of which source is more authoritative than the others (i.e., movies being the highest authority).

If the bath turd didn't curate their stuff properly and it ends up as a dog's breakfast, that is their own fault. However, the dog's breakfast is still canon.

If you want to create a franchise that is consistent, make sure you have final say as to what becomes official (like Lucas did).
They did a really good job managing all that stuff though. That asian guy whoever who managed an entire database for george lucas to keep track of it. George Lucas admitted he's never interacted with EU material at all except to get ideas.
Yes. Lucas did. Bathturd is just a shitshow.
 

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
619
"Canon" is everything contained within products/materials released by the I.P. holders. Anything outside of them is fan-fiction/head-canon. Is it that difficult a concept to grasp? Also, the idea that all the information about the events within a novel/movie etc. must only be contained within said product is utterly retarded, and was brought about by RedLetterMedia and their mindless drones.

If you told the same thing to Tolkien, for example, he'd roll in his grave.
I believe you'd be singing a completely different tune if you were a fan of a franchise that has been constantly pumping out mediocre or straight up garbage content for decades. To imply that EVERYTHING is canon is just to be dissapointed for something else when the IP holders reveal, yet again, that they don't even remember producing that one piece of content you really really liked all those years ago and inevitable contradict it with their new stuff.
 

Cael

Arcane
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,959
"Canon" is everything contained within products/materials released by the I.P. holders. Anything outside of them is fan-fiction/head-canon. Is it that difficult a concept to grasp? Also, the idea that all the information about the events within a novel/movie etc. must only be contained within said product is utterly retarded, and was brought about by RedLetterMedia and their mindless drones.

If you told the same thing to Tolkien, for example, he'd roll in his grave.
I believe you'd be singing a completely different tune if you were a fan of a franchise that has been constantly pumping out mediocre or straight up garbage content for decades. To imply that EVERYTHING is canon is just to be dissapointed for something else when the IP holders reveal, yet again, that they don't even remember producing that one piece of content you really really liked all those years ago and inevitable contradict it with their new stuff.
Since when did facts give a flying fuck about human feelings?
 

Testownia

Guest
"Canon" is everything contained within products/materials released by the I.P. holders. Anything outside of them is fan-fiction/head-canon. Is it that difficult a concept to grasp? Also, the idea that all the information about the events within a novel/movie etc. must only be contained within said product is utterly retarded, and was brought about by RedLetterMedia and their mindless drones.

If you told the same thing to Tolkien, for example, he'd roll in his grave.
I believe you'd be singing a completely different tune if you were a fan of a franchise that has been constantly pumping out mediocre or straight up garbage content for decades. To imply that EVERYTHING is canon is just to be dissapointed for something else when the IP holders reveal, yet again, that they don't even remember producing that one piece of content you really really liked all those years ago and inevitable contradict it with their new stuff.

Sorry, but however you feel about a given franchise doesn't change what is canon or not.

Let me be clear - canon DOESN'T MATTER, but it IS a very set, precise thing. You can pretend that your fan-fiction or head-canon is the "real" one, but that simply isn't true.
 

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
619
"Canon" is everything contained within products/materials released by the I.P. holders. Anything outside of them is fan-fiction/head-canon. Is it that difficult a concept to grasp? Also, the idea that all the information about the events within a novel/movie etc. must only be contained within said product is utterly retarded, and was brought about by RedLetterMedia and their mindless drones.

If you told the same thing to Tolkien, for example, he'd roll in his grave.
I believe you'd be singing a completely different tune if you were a fan of a franchise that has been constantly pumping out mediocre or straight up garbage content for decades. To imply that EVERYTHING is canon is just to be dissapointed for something else when the IP holders reveal, yet again, that they don't even remember producing that one piece of content you really really liked all those years ago and inevitable contradict it with their new stuff.

Sorry, but however you feel about a given franchise doesn't change what is canon or not.

Let me be clear - canon DOESN'T MATTER, but it IS a very set, precise thing. You can pretend that your fan-fiction or head-canon is the "real" one, but that simply isn't true.
What? I'm not saying that canon changes because of what you feel. I'm saying the complete opposite, that no matter how much you care about a small piece of obscure complementary media, the IP holders and, chances are, the people in charge of the ACTUAL projects aren't even aware of them, and they'll be rendered obsolete by the time the next "real" thing comes out. Again, companies DON'T CARE what's canon and what isn't, so why give them the power to decide, instead of the people who created the projects?
If you want any examples, try to even decipher just what the fuck is supposed to be canon within any long running capeshit franchise if you assume every single thing is canon from the get go. You'll go insane, and all for material that is literally trash pushed out by the company just for a quick buck. Or better yet, try to make sense of Dragon Ball canon with just one genre of media, be it manga, videogames or animation. You WON'T be able to.
 
Last edited:

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,399
I have a simple principle: a)Did the content I consumed gave me the desire of sending the people responsible into a gas chamber? Yes or no? If yes, then it is not canon, if no, then it is canon. The realist take is actually to not give a single shit to this "legitimate" canon thing and just filter for retardation. If it is retarded and worse than it was, it doesnt exist for me.

Most of those franchises end in complete retardation of incoherence, contradictions, bad ideas, plot holes , bad writing, absurd logic, Deus Ex Machinas, you name it. If you assume that every contrived bullshit probably originally an idea of some Wall Street pig or some hairy armpit feminist in Marketing must be taken seriously as a canon "authority", you are just going crazy. Those people dont give a shit about the product they are ruining, so you should return the favor.
 
Last edited:

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
619
I have a simple principle: a)Did the content I consumed gave me the desire of sending the people responsible into a gas chamber? Yes or no? If yes, then it is not canon, if no, then it is canon. The realist take is actually to not give a single shit to this "legitimate" canon thing and just filter for retardation. If it is retarded and worse than it was, it doesnt exist for me.

Most of those franchises end in complete retardation of incoerence, contradictions, bad ideas, plot holes , bad writing, absurd logic, Deus Ex Machinas, you name it. If you assume that every contrived bullshit probably originally an idea of some Wall Street pig or some hairy armpit feminist in Marketing must be taken seriously as a canon "authority", you are just going crazy. Those people dont give a shit about the product they are ruining, so you should return the favor.
This is what any sane person should do.
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
4,256
Copyright was a mistake.


Uh... no, not at all. It was a smart and necessary thing for the time it was created; the problem we're living with is that it hasn't evolved or adapted at all in the intervening century. There are multiple forms of new media that have cropped up, information has been siloed and monetized, and the semi-entrepreneurial nature of creative businesses in the early 20th century has been replaced by the monopolies of Disney, Facebook, et al. Copyright law was created as a means of protecting and rewarding creativity and ingenuity, but the "advances" of the last century have perverted it into a tool to instead bludgeon them down with. The legislative and regulatory bodies that initially created copyright law have ossified, atrophied, and self-mutilated into institutions incapable of even recognizing the need for adjustment.

It's even worse than you portray. Copyright laws have been changed to even more benefit the wealthy in last few decades. If Disney haven't lobbed to extend copyright laws in 90s, Micky Mouse would already be in public domain for decades.
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
4,256
If you told the same thing to Tolkien, for example, he'd roll in his grave.

You don't understand the difference between lore adding extra information about the world and lore used as a part of integral world building. The former just gives extra details, in the latter all information are used for the verisimilitude. For example: In LotR you don't need to know that Sauron was a lieutenant of Morgoth, but need to understand that he had created rings to control others and that the part of himself was forged into the One. We may discuss to which category a given information belongs to, to but it doesn't change the fact that there is a distinction.
 

Gregz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
8,650
Location
The Desert Wasteland
Do you understand that people want their story to be told in the medium they bought not in some periphery book, marketing video, cosplayer event or officially sanctioned brochure?

Where is the clip of Plinkett shouting, that he doesn't give a shit about prequels explanations coming from the books, when you need it?
What does any of that have to do with it being an in-universe explanation?
It is. You might not like how it was presented, but it is.

Yeah Rusty is right (although I have no idea why he's continuing to argue the point because at this point it's pretty clear you guys aren't engaging with the substance of his arguments). Pretty much everything Disney has put out in the Star Wars franchise has been absolute bollocks, but no one is claiming it isn't canon because that's not the way that IP law works. Also, hate to break it to you guys, but retcons are a(n increasingly prevalent) thing in the endless recycling of a franchise. Bethesda could literally say "the events of Fallout 1 were all the fever dreams of an insane ghoul" and guess what? Fallout 1 is no longer canon.

Canon doesn't contain everything of quality from a franchise; that's just not the definition of the word. Canon contains whatever the IP holder says it contains.

Rusty did an excellent job fomenting discussion. :salute:

In my case, I completely gave up on IP creators the moment Greedo shot first in the “special edition” of Star Wars, an edition which replaced the original on store shelves in 1997, and was shown on cable TV as the official version.



So functionally, for me, canon is exactly what I’m willing to accept. It’s also why I’ll never acknowledge the works of activist SJWs, or their clownworld value system.
 

Testownia

Guest
I love how the only response from people clinging to their head-canon is "EVERYTHING I SAY/FEEL IS CANON IS THE TRUE ONE". No, that's YOUR fanfiction, which is perfectly legitimate and may be of greater value to you than canon. But it is NOT canon. That word has a set meaning, and you can't just switch it willy-nilly in order to pretend the bad parts of your beloved franchise didn't happen, for example.
 

purupuru

Learned
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Messages
415
Why would it matter less just because it's not in the game itself
Just an semi-related FYI, but Todd has declared this "order of priority" thing when it comes to game canon:
Todd Howard: It's kind of what I said in the panel. "What's the order of priority?" If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:To...Game_Development.2C_Canon.2C_and_Fan_Theories
It's about TES lore but I suppose that's still kind of on topic.
 

Testownia

Guest
Why would it matter less just because it's not in the game itself
Just an semi-related FYI, but Todd has declared this "order of priority" thing when it comes to game canon:
Todd Howard: It's kind of what I said in the panel. "What's the order of priority?" If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:To...Game_Development.2C_Canon.2C_and_Fan_Theories
It's about TES lore but I suppose that's still kind of on topic.

So basically Todd is saying what I and rusty_shackleford have been patiently repeating - "canon" is what's present within the products of the IP holder. Though in this case, Godd Howard is slightly off-kilter here, since fully 100% of the Elder Scrolls in-game books are subjective in nature, with their very subjectivity being a big part of the draw for the setting. This isn't an accident, as well - the lead designer for Morrowind literally demanded that none of the in-game lore be "objective". In other words, no Word of God.
 

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
619
Why would it matter less just because it's not in the game itself
Just an semi-related FYI, but Todd has declared this "order of priority" thing when it comes to game canon:
Todd Howard: It's kind of what I said in the panel. "What's the order of priority?" If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:To...Game_Development.2C_Canon.2C_and_Fan_Theories
It's about TES lore but I suppose that's still kind of on topic.

So basically Todd is saying what I and rusty_shackleford have been patiently repeating - "canon" is what's present within the products of the IP holder. Though in this case, Godd Howard is slightly off-kilter here, since fully 100% of the Elder Scrolls in-game books are subjective in nature, with their very subjectivity being a big part of the draw for the setting. This isn't an accident, as well - the lead designer for Morrowind literally demanded that none of the in-game lore be "objective". In other words, no Word of God.
If we go by your own words unless Todd himself said that, no, that's no longer canon. Mark Nelson and Ken Rolston no longer work on Bethesda and so their work no longer has any power over whatever Todd says is now canon. See how stupid this gets?
 

Testownia

Guest
Why would it matter less just because it's not in the game itself
Just an semi-related FYI, but Todd has declared this "order of priority" thing when it comes to game canon:
Todd Howard: It's kind of what I said in the panel. "What's the order of priority?" If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:To...Game_Development.2C_Canon.2C_and_Fan_Theories
It's about TES lore but I suppose that's still kind of on topic.

So basically Todd is saying what I and rusty_shackleford have been patiently repeating - "canon" is what's present within the products of the IP holder. Though in this case, Godd Howard is slightly off-kilter here, since fully 100% of the Elder Scrolls in-game books are subjective in nature, with their very subjectivity being a big part of the draw for the setting. This isn't an accident, as well - the lead designer for Morrowind literally demanded that none of the in-game lore be "objective". In other words, no Word of God.
If we go by your own words unless Todd himself said that, no, that's no longer canon. Mark Nelson and Ken Rolston no longer work on Bethesda and so their work no longer has any power over whatever Todd says is now canon. See how stupid this gets?

The IP HOLDER, A.K.A. Bethesda, not individual writers. Don't try to twist my words. What "canon" is, is very simple. It's people who can't/won't accept whatever parts of it don't fit their own, personal head-canon who make it complicated.
 

Vormulak

Learned
Edgy
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Mar 24, 2021
Messages
145
Location
USA
Do you understand that people want their story to be told in the medium they bought not in some periphery book, marketing video, cosplayer event or officially sanctioned brochure?

Where is the clip of Plinkett shouting, that he doesn't give a shit about prequels explanations coming from the books, when you need it?
What does any of that have to do with it being an in-universe explanation?
It is. You might not like how it was presented, but it is.

Yeah Rusty is right (although I have no idea why he's continuing to argue the point because at this point it's pretty clear you guys aren't engaging with the substance of his arguments). Pretty much everything Disney has put out in the Star Wars franchise has been absolute bollocks, but no one is claiming it isn't canon because that's not the way that IP law works. Also, hate to break it to you guys, but retcons are a(n increasingly prevalent) thing in the endless recycling of a franchise. Bethesda could literally say "the events of Fallout 1 were all the fever dreams of an insane ghoul" and guess what? Fallout 1 is no longer canon.

Canon doesn't contain everything of quality from a franchise; that's just not the definition of the word. Canon contains whatever the IP holder says it contains.

Rusty did an excellent job fomenting discussion. :salute:

In my case, I completely gave up on IP creators the moment Greedo shot first in the “special edition” of Star Wars, an edition which replaced the original on store shelves in 1997, and was shown on cable TV as the official version.



So functionally, for me, canon is exactly what I’m willing to accept. It’s also why I’ll never acknowledge the works of activist SJWs, or their clownworld value system.

based
 

Archwizard Hank

Learned
Joined
Mar 8, 2017
Messages
94
Guys guys guys! You're all missing the bigger picture here: c0da makes everything canon! Not sure if it's canon? No worries, just dip your butter knife in the c0da jar and slather it allllll over that media, and I mean just really lay it on real thick, in rich, creamy, delicious layers. Mmmm.... c0da

For real though, the canonicity argument is kind of ignoring the forest for the trees here, because the general point is that regardless of whether or not the ad itself is canon, the original game is less interesting because that information isn't contained within the game. System Shock 2 and Deus Ex had simple explanations for the user interface, all it really takes is a few lines of dialogue.
 

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