Incline Battle Brothers + Beasts & Exploration, Warriors of the North and Blazing Deserts DLC Thread

[Salvo]

IMO while the game is good it still needs major overhauls before actually being labelled as a completed project. It's still far too repetitive, balance is a bit off and "unique" weapons feel lackluster.

 

[Brancaleone]

Does someone who has wasted thousand of hours on some shitty time-killer have the obligation to state that said time-killer has great content?

If someone "wastes" 1000 hours on something it can't be shitty for that person, unless we are talking about someone that has mental issues of some sort.
I understand someone like Roxor who played the game 20 hours and found out that he doesn't like it and says why(even if I disagree with some of the complaints) but if you play for so long...what the fuck bro, how much more do you want to be satisfied with the content? It's an indie game from 1 programmer, not world of warcraft or sth

I'm definitely not saying BB is a shitty time-waster, I was talking about the principle that spending a certain amount of hours on something doesn't forfeit your right to criticize it, or to say that it's content is insufficient.

But here we are entering a thorny subject, which is that of Early Access and unpaid beta-testing.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Elhoim]

I feel they jumped out of it too soon. They are probably burned and tired of this game, but I can't help but feel this will hurt them in the long run. When their next game hits early access, they will have a hard time convincing them of the upcoming features the game will have, and will have to deal with this same shit again. I believe they made the right decision regarding the financial aspect, but not regarding the fanbase. Dropping development after 3 months of release is not a good move. They should have released 1.1 and said nothing about the future of the game development. They sound like they are fucking tired of it, and honestly, I was fucking tired of AoD quite some times as well. But in a few months they might look at it again, they would not be so tired of it and do something extra they always wanted to do, or when things with the new game are going slow and you have the need of "finishing" something, you go back and do a small DLC.

Basically, it's your fucking game, and you can fuck around with it whenever you want. Closing the door of development so abruptly is silly, there's no publisher forcing you when to work on it or not. Might be a german thing, as a latin I can't see things being so "structured".

 

[Alienman]

I guess you call that a balanced approach to the game.

 

[Alienman]

I feel they jumped out of it too soon. They are probably burned and tired of this game, but I can't help but feel this will hurt them in the long run. When their next game hits early access, they will have a hard time convincing them of the upcoming features the game will have, and will have to deal with this same shit again. I believe they made the right decision regarding the financial aspect, but not regarding the fanbase. Dropping development after 3 months of release is not a good move. They should have released 1.1 and said nothing about the future of the game development. They sound like they are fucking tired of it, and honestly, I was fucking tired of AoD quite some times as well. But in a few months they might look at it again, they would not be so tired of it and do something extra they always wanted to do, or when things with the new game are going slow and you have the need of "finishing" something, you go back and do a small DLC.

Basically, it's your fucking game, and you can fuck around with it whenever you want. Closing the door of development so abruptly is silly, there's no publisher forcing you when to work on it or not. Might be a german thing, as a latin I can't see things being so "structured".

But the game is done. If it wasn't it would still be in EA. I don't understand this "dropping development". If a movie is done, it's done - you stop filming and release it. You don't add scenes after so many months, okay maybe if you are George Lucas.

 

[Prime Junta]

Eh, you Latins haven't managed to finish anything since Hadrian.

 

[Elhoim]

But the game is done. If it wasn't it would still be in EA. I don't understand this "dropping development". If a movie is done, it's done - you stop filming and release it. You don't add scenes after so many months, okay maybe if you are George Lucas.

Eh... no. First of all, movies and games are two different mediums with different goals, not a comparison at all. Games are meant to be played over and over, movies are meant to present you with a story and be watched/enjoyed once. It's a way one trip. Games are playgrounds that can be expanded/developed more. You stop doing that, you stop development. Just to be clear, I didn't say or imply that the game is incomplete or "unfinished". The game is in a great state, but the potential to do more, to expand and improve is there, as the game has a few weak points.

Second, I'm talking from experience. There is no "done", especially in these kind of games (RPGs). Done is a line you draw in the sand. Just look at AoD. We released the game when it was done, it worked perfectly, had the endings and all system were quite balanced. New fans came in, new feedback came in, and we continued interacting with them and improving the game. We continued the development of the game, while at the same time we worked on new ones. We released DR, and even if it didn't do great, it paid its development and improved AoD sales. And then we went and ported DR engine improvements. Once we "stopped" developing the game, our fanbase was really satisfied and happy about the support we gave to the game.

And you know why I think it's important? Because we are a small developer. And as a small developer you must show to your fanbase that you care, if not, your future looks bleak.

Just look at all the drama and score dropping, and re-read what I wrote. Announcing that at this point is counter productive, and maybe even false. I wouldn't be surprised if they release a 1.2 in 3-6 months. You know how many times we said "Alright, we are done with AoD" and we then went and do an extra more? Hell, we even released modding tools

 

[Brancaleone]

They are probably burned and tired of this game, but I can't help but feel this will hurt them in the long run. When their next game hits early access, they will have a hard time convincing them of the upcoming features the game will have, and will have to deal with this same shit again.

That's the thing I find most baffling, how they didn't foresee the consequences for their next game, especially since they sound pretty eager to move onto it. Maybe they thought the still-enthusiastic-no-matter-what part of their buyers would vastly outnumber the disgruntled ones, but even if they end up being right about it, it's still a stupid risk to take, and for no payoff at all.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Guess this latest patch is just a victim of...



















Overhype.

 

[Alienman]

Eh... no. First of all, movies and games are two different mediums with different goals, not a comparison at all. Games are meant to be played over and over, movies are meant to present you with a story and be watched/enjoyed once. It's a way one trip. Games are playgrounds that can be expanded/developed more. You stop doing that, you stop development. Just to be clear, I didn't say or imply that the game is incomplete or "unfinished". The game is in a great state, but the potential to do more, to expand and improve is there, as the game has a few weak points.

Second, I'm talking from experience. There is no "done", especially in these kind of games (RPGs). Done is a line you draw in the sand. Just look at AoD. We released the game when it was done, it worked perfectly, had the endings and all system were quite balanced. New fans came in, new feedback came in, and we continued interacting with them and improving the game. We continued the development of the game, while at the same time we worked on new ones. We released DR, and even if it didn't do great, it paid its development and improved AoD sales. And then we went and ported DR engine improvements. Once we "stopped" developing the game, our fanbase was really satisfied and happy about the support we gave to the game.

And you know why I think it's important? Because we are a small developer. And as a small developer you must show to your fanbase that you care, if not, your future looks bleak.

Just look at all the drama and score dropping, and re-read what I wrote. Announcing that at this point is counter productive, and maybe even false. I wouldn't be surprised if they release a 1.2 in 3-6 months. You know how many times we said "Alright, we are done with AoD" and we then went and do an extra more? Hell, we even released modding tools

You can watch a movie more than once, and sometimes it is required to understand certain movies. I don't agree that the goal is much different since both are made to provide entertainment and some games are more or less movies.

I agree with you that there is always potential to do more and so on, but really what difference is there when a movie maker or a game makes decides that their project is finished? You seem to speak in general that all games somehow are left open to be further developed upon, and I just don't agree. The product that gets put out there/released is what you get(for the consumer) and expecting things to be improved upon and changed I find a bit silly and that is why I use the movie comparison. I don't go expecting movies to change after the initial release, and I don't expect games to do that either. DLCs or expansions are just a bonus to me.

And what does version 1.0 even mean anymore if one can't expect that to be the final version? People have to learn to accept that when a game is released it is the final version, otherwise we get perpetual early access forever. You apparently decided against that, and that is of course your call, but personally I find it annoying to have games I wanna play in constant stage of flux.

 

[Elhoim]

You can watch a movie more than once, and sometimes it is required to understand certain movies. I don't agree that the goal is much different since both are made to provide entertainment and some games are more or less movies.

I agree with you that there is always potential to do more and so on, but really what difference is there when a movie maker or a game makes decides that their project is finished? You seem to speak in general that all games somehow are left open to be further developed upon, and I just don't agree. The product that gets put out there/released is what you get(for the consumer) and expecting things to be improved upon and changed I find a bit silly and that is why I use the movie comparison. I don't go expecting movies to change after the initial release, and I don't expect games to do that either. DLCs or expansions are just a bonus to me.

And what does version 1.0 even mean anymore if one can't expect that to be the final version? People have to learn to accept that when a game is released it is the final version, otherwise we get perpetual early access forever. You apparently decided against that, and that is of course your call, but personally I find it annoying to have games I wanna play in constant stage of flux.

I understand, especially as a player. Hell, I even stopped my run of BB in wait of the 1.1 improvements, and I'm holding off playing some games waiting for patches and expansions. But on the other hand, I love going back to certain types of games after updates or expansions. For example, the Civ series. And I love them playing them at release, then see what's new, fixed or improved and play again... Basically, for me it depends on how many times you are willing to play the game. For example, a more "movie-like" game like the latest Deus Ex or Tomb Raider, I play them only once and I expect a "finished" experience. Or for very long time investment RPGs like Wasteland 2 or PoE, which are too long and bloated for replayability. Now, 4X games, short RPGs, roguelikes or sandbox games as a player I want constant improvement as I don't feel that the first playtroughs were a waste of time and I enjoy the new stuff.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that for me it wasn't wise of them to stop improving this type of game, which attracts people that love constant improvement, or at least, to state it so sharply and so soon after release. At least from my POV, I can't see why they can't work in the new game and every now and then release something extra to keep the fanbase happy. Personally, I see as part of providing service to our customers. For me, small devs don't have the luxury of developing a game in an ivory tower isolated from feedback or the desires of your customers. Cutting that link hurts in the long run.

That said, it's their call, and I hope I'm wrong and this backslash is just a small one and dies here, not affecting how the fanbase reacts to the development of the new game. I'm just thinking out loud on how I would have handled it, and the whole situation saddens me both as a dev (bad PR move that hurt them for no reason) and a player (I want more battlefields!).

FWIW, I just left them a positive review to counter the negative ones

 

[Infinitron]

Sadly, Elhoim has a point.

But if the main motivation here is keeping the fanbase happy and not provoking a backlash, then working on the game indefinitely isn't the only option. Another thing they could have done is waited until their next game had something to show, and only then announced that Battle Brothers development was complete. Give people something new to get excited about so they won't care that Battle Brothers is over.

 

[AMG]

Does someone who has wasted thousand of hours on some shitty time-killer have the obligation to state that said time-killer has great content?

If someone "wastes" 1000 hours on something it can't be shitty for that person, unless we are talking about someone that has mental issues of some sort.
I understand someone like Roxor who played the game 20 hours and found out that he doesn't like it and says why(even if I disagree with some of the complaints) but if you play for so long...what the fuck bro, how much more do you want to be satisfied with the content? It's an indie game from 1 programmer, not world of warcraft or sth

Your argument is backwards. If someone likes something enough to spend 1000 hours on it, then it's natural that he wants more of it and gets pissed when he gets denied.
Also this whole 1000 hours argument is annoying really. You pay for a game, not hours of entertainment. Guy who plays for 1000 hours didn't recieve anything more than the guy that deleted it after 3 minutes. You can like something a lot and still find it wanting. In fact, if you care about something then you are more likely to be bothered by it's flaws than the guy that simply shrugs and moves on.

Anyways, not opening the files for modding is a crime really. Fuck the devs, will not buy their next turd.
Also, why is this not on GOG yet? Did they take economy course in Pierre Begue Academy?

 

[Alienman]

Elhoim

It's a sad state of affairs when you as a dev are being held hostage to your own game. I guess being dishonest and keep reaffirming lies indefinitely is better than being honest about your intentions and what future you have planned. I do agree with everything you say in your last post though.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

I don't understand the anger. People are mad that they don't work on the game forever? I mean you bought a game for $15 dollars. Sure some things became repetitive, but I got like 80 hours on it or something so far. It was 15 dollars. It was their first game ever, they are very straightforward guys it seems like. They said their next game may even have people with legs in it. So they obviously have a lot of work to do. I will happily await and very likely purchase it when it is ready. I guess having grown up in 80's I don't have a lot of expectations that a company will keep making new content for their old games for years and years, especially for $15-19 dollars or whatever.

 

[AMG]

It's 30$. Besides, it's not like people want free shit. They want PAID expansions/DLC or modding, which doesn't cost shit to enable.

Elhoim

It's a sad state of affairs when you as a dev are being held hostage to your own game. I guess being dishonest and keep reaffirming lies indefinitely is better than being honest about your intentions and what future you have planned. I do agree with everything you say in your last post though.

What is sad about it? Business must take customers' wishes into account when making decisions. Overhype are also customers and when they go to buy toothpaste, they want it to be in a flavour they like, not the one toothpaste's manufacturer likes. It's the only sensible principle for the world to work on. Now, this obviously doesn't apply in similar degree to creative works, but being held "hostage" by customers is a normal thing. Denying service that someone wants from you will piss them off, whether you're honest or not. You just have to correctly guess whether the people who want this or that are more numerous.
I'm not saying they should listen to the angry mob and hammer at BB away as long as they're pleased, just that meeting expectations is part of running a business. Going against the grain is their choice, but if it bites them in the ass "muh cruel kappatalism" is the last thing anybody will want to hear.

 

[Jimmious]

Your argument is backwards. If someone likes something enough to spend 1000 hours on it, then it's natural that he wants more of it and gets pissed when he gets denied.
Also this whole 1000 hours argument is annoying really. You pay for a game, not hours of entertainment. Guy who plays for 1000 hours didn't recieve anything more than the guy that deleted it after 3 minutes. You can like something a lot and still find it wanting. In fact, if you care about something then you are more likely to be bothered by it's flaws than the guy that simply shrugs and moves on.

You don't get me. If a game is good enough for you to spend 1000 hours on it, you have to acknowledge this fact and not act like its missing everything. That is my point.
You obviously can have more wishes and desires from the game but that's different from actually talking for example if it's worth the money. If a game that you played 1000 hours isn't worth 20 bucks, then what is?

*As we all argue, I dled a 42mb update in Steam for the game. Bug fixes?

 

[AMG]

Stop taking everything so literally. When someone wishes you cancer when you kill them in Quake it doesn't mean they actually want you to die. They're just angry.
"Fuck you, I regret buying this shit" is a normal expression of anger on internet. Stalking twitter, lengthy steam reviews and death threats is the unhealthy territory known as Celerity Syndrome.

 

[Elhoim]

Elhoim

It's a sad state of affairs when you as a dev are being held hostage to your own game. I guess being dishonest and keep reaffirming lies indefinitely is better than being honest about your intentions and what future you have planned. I do agree with everything you say in your last post though.

Well, it all depends on how you feel about the game, that's why I started saying that they are probably burned and tired of it. I really enjoy the service part of this job. I just sent a guy a fixed savegame in which he had an extremely rare combination of level design and allies position and left him stuck, and I enjoyed helping him. I just released a couple of minor mods for the game (double SP and Alternate Combat Balance). I loved porting the DR improvements, giving people a new reason to play the game. There were times in which I couldn't imagine working in any other game, and other times in which I just wanted to get rid of it and work on something else.

It's not really about lying to the customers, it's about not lying to yourself. Like I said, the future you have planned and your motivations shift from time to time, and giving such a definitive answer that they won't add nothing more to it is for me either naive or hardheaded. Let's say that in 3 months the art guy wants to release some background variations, he went back to some old art files, tweaked them up on his free time and wants to release them. He should not do it because "we said we won't add anything new to the game, just bugfixes"? Or maybe I'm wrong and they really won't do anything more. I find it hard to understand because for us it was a difficult thing to just let the game go. We were not hostages, we love our game and want to make it as good as possible even if it was at a very good state at release. We love working with the people to help them enjoy it, from improving stuff that they felt it was a let down (like the ending) to things like bigger fonts sliders or very high resolution support. We weren't forced to, and on top, it was a good business move to provide support for the game for a year and a half while we worked on the new projects.

Anyway, I'm just rambling now. I have no idea how they feel about their game, and the real decisions that drove them for saying 3 months after release that they are moving on.

 

[Prime Junta]

I hate dealing with customers. Entitled little fuckers.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

When info comes out regarding their next game, everyone's attention will turn to that. In the meantime, you are responsible for your own emotions. Fuck, like that should need to be communicated.

 

[Zanzoken]

The days of "going gold" are long gone it seems.

 

[undecaf]

Don't give a fuck about mod tools or the rest of the debacle. I just wait for the game to hit GOG so I can give it a shot. If there's no further support, there shouldn't be too many obstacles left.

 

[Ezeekiel]

BB is just a combat engine and an overland map which is mostly window dressing and some shopping.

The fanbase thought these were just 2 or 3 components of a larger whole, the rest of which was yet to come.
Doesn't have to be some campaign or anything, but at least more stuff to do ala Mount and Blade Warband or some such.
Contrary to what some here say, there were more things planned or at least in consideration. The whole simulation aspect (mostly canned now) and the random generation (now a pointless annoyance) were related to that. The game was built around this stuff. It has complicated systems still (the in game text for missions iirc etc) in place that now have no real purpose.

What's there is fun for what it is, quite fun for a while. But once you reach a certain point and realize that's literally all there is to the game, it's totally anticlimactic, and once people start noticing how limiting the combat ruleset actually is and all the other weaknesses, the combination of all that can leave folks really disappointed
.
Right now it's like some IOS game in scope.


By comparison AOD and Underrail were complete experiences relative to their respective genres/types.

People during the beta just weren't expecting the devs to stop at this point. This has nothing to do with "developing the game forever" or anything like that. Just developing it to the kind of state one would normally expect of such a game, and what was to some degree hinted at. I was surprised when 1.0 hit that they released it already.

Mount and Blade Warband kind of peters out as well eventually, but has modding which is super easy for anyone to do (depending on what you want to do). Modding really helps these sorts of games extend their playability far past anything the devs could possibly achieve on their own.
And that keeps people playing until the devs' next game, and more or less ensures people will want a sequel whenever it comes out (see Bannerlord. Even modders who stopped working on Warband mods ages ago have returned).
BB was popular enough to sustain a hardcore fanbase of a certain size, so this would have been the logical road to follow, or so it seems to me.

If the devs want a break, fine whatever. But declaring this game done in this state seems bizarre to me unless they just think their code is a total mess and they just want a clean break to start over or something.


Acting like the devs are lashed to their product by the fanbase or whatever is nonsense. It's basic longstanding and mostly understandable expectations that were not fulfilled.

They also haven't been too great about communication with the fanbase for a while now. The balance changes during beta were a mixed bag at best, despite all the player input (a lot of which was ignored... Their prerogative, but sometimes just difficult to follow the logic of the devs with no word from them).
The devs are a small team so maybe that's expected, but it wasn't always the case (that communications were dodgy). What explanations they have given (such as for just sharing some unpacking tool for their stuff) are rather weak ("our code is a mess" - so what, people like your game enough to want to mod it anyway).
I do wish them well and hope their next game becomes some indie smash hit.



Massive hours in the game were already a topic we've covered repeatedly: During the beta with all the changes (including some downgrades to the overland map and simulation) people kept restarting campaigns with each new version, providing feedback on bugs and suggestions to the devs etc. The fanbase was very involved. The travel speed was also slow and time could not be sped up during regular travel. Then some guys like Sarissofoi did youtube lp's or whatever. It adds up. I have nowhere near as many hours as he does but I also came in much later during the beta. Most of the hours I have in the game were spent traveling from one contract to the next or waiting or whatever. Very little was actual gameplay, aside from later battles with nobles vs nobles etc which are huge and take forever (and even have some performance issues for me at times, huh).
I was very positive about the game at first (and got more enjoyable hours out of it than the ratman) as my past posts indicate, but I sure wasn't expecting this outcome back then.
I'd recommend it to people, but am still disappointed in the end.