KickStarter BATTLETECH - turn-based mech combat from Harebrained Schemes

[ArchAngel]

Nah, just the autism/sperg one.

I suggest a HBS fanboy tag, that would piss him off more.

 

[PanteraNera]

The incident he is talking about started here.

Note how fast he devolved into "that is not important" and throw around accusations like "you are just finding things to complain about" instead of addressing the issues raised. Which is exactly what sjws do.

And then he signed off with saying how it is my fault that he is getting into arguments and that I am a bad influence on him.

And then he turns up in that other thread I linked to earlier, trying for a gotcha.

And he is still trying to claim victimhood now.

You can judge for yourself what he is and what I am.

Agree on that.
Also I personally do not like it if I am told what I should care for or not (or for that matter being told what to do and what not).

Like I said as I had been a hardliner in many regards in my past and still am in some (I just got way calmer with growing older ) I totally get and respect were you are coming from.

What people forget is, passion.
If I am not deeply passionate about something I can shrug off some contradictions and inconsistencies.
But if I truly care for something even minor mistakes infuriate me.

Cael but you are a bad influence, you are ruining the mindless fun for people that consider the truth behind your words regarding BattleTech and HBS (not that there are many)

Yep agree on victimhood as well, I gave two options that could clear that matter up, instead he explains his (hurt) feelings *shrugs*

Spark Mandriller I do understand were your coming from and it is a valid point of view, Cael has just another and they are extremely different. He is a purist, a hardliner. You are not. There is not much chance of clearing things up with explaining your self. It's easier to blame others for their wrong doing than to man up and look what you did to create the situation you are in (not saying that Cael is any better in that regard, I honestly do not know if he is).
And as I said, look at his tag, read his messages, you really expect him to back down? That would be a silly thing to expect.
And I think you can not "win" this at all, as his knowledge regarding BattleTech is way superior to yours.

Haven't seen a melee weapon in this game so far but now I am in the mood to train a Pilot in piloting and guts, give him a Mech with the highest melee damage I kind find, with max armor and filled with small lasers/MG.

There's no melee weapons in nuBT.

There are melee dmg mods

 

[Spark Mandriller]

Melee attacks all being grouped together is annoying because it hurts mechs without hands. In CBT if your mech doesn't have hand or lower arm actuators you can still kick as well as any other mech. In this if you don't have hands then your melee just sucks, no way around it. You don't get anything in return, either, it's just a flat penalty. No freed up slots, no flippy arms, nothing. Just worse damage.

There is not much chance of clearing things up with explaining your self.

Well, like I said, I think it's too late at this point. And really, it seems like it was never going to work.
Anyway, our problems with each other really aren't interesting. Enough discussion about them. We're not going to solve shit and becomes friends. Let's just drop it.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

Haven't seen a melee weapon in this game so far but now I am in the mood to train a Pilot in piloting and guts, give him a Mech with the highest melee damage I kind find, with max armor and filled with small lasers/MG.

There is no melee weapon in the HBS game. They lumped all the different forms of melee attacks into 1, which is totally retarded because each of the melee attacks has a different goal.

Punching (and under the old rules, using a hatchet or sword or club) hits one of 6 locations in the upper body. That means a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the head. And if you have 2 hands, you can punch twice a round, so you have two chances of hitting an enemy in the head a round.
Kicking targets the legs and do double the damage of a punch. Even better, you can use sides to ensure you hit the leg you want to hit (instead of 50/50 from rear or front). Kicking off an enemy's leg is a notorious tactic in TT. It forces a piloting roll, IIRC.
Charging can cause a TON of damage and forces a piloting roll, but you can't use any weapons that round (although there is a reason why that 'mech is called a Charger...)

The HBS game lumps them all into one generic attack...

also there's no falling damage and wounding an enemy pilot is 100% useless unless you're building both a strategy and a loadout aiming for that.

 

[PanteraNera]

also there's no falling damage and wounding an enemy pilot is 100% useless unless you're building both a strategy and a loadout aiming for that.

Well, knocked downed Mechs lose one initiative (if you also used the "focus fire skill" a light gets put into the heavy initiative phase).
Also they seem to get a major aim penalty after being knocked down.
Usually I knock down two enemy Mechs per turn and kill one to two other.

 

[lightbane]

There are melee dmg mods

Wow, the combat in that video seemed slow as fuck. No wonder the player seemed so bored. You guys weren't kidding when saying that speed hacks were nearly mandatory.

also there's no falling damage and wounding an enemy pilot is 100% useless unless you're building both a strategy and a loadout aiming for that.

That also makes melee even more circumstantial than it is already, as well as making jump jets super-OP.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

also there's no falling damage and wounding an enemy pilot is 100% useless unless you're building both a strategy and a loadout aiming for that.

Well, knocked downed Mechs lose one initiative (if you also used the "focus fire skill" a light gets put into the heavy initiative phase).
Also they seem to get a major aim penalty after being knocked down.
Usually I knock down two enemy Mechs per turn and kill one to two other.

And most importantly, a knocked down target is open season for freebie called shot alpha strikes.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Yes, knockdown is horrendously overpowered because you get free called shots on the fallen battlemech until it picks itself up. The tactics skill has two points where a mechwarrior's called shot ability improves (IIRC, "called shot bonus" and "called shot mastery"), which drastically improves a mechwarrior's chances of hitting a called shot target, whether a free called shot on a fallen 'mech or a called shot using precision strike. It seems that the primary use of LRMs and SRMs is to knockdown 'mechs (some other weapons also cause stability loss, but not as much as missiles).

Of course, precision strike itself is also overpowered, since you can simply target a 'mech's central torso and kill it quickly. I put my tacticians into battlemechs with an AC-20 (100 damage with a standard one), and this was highly effective at smashing through the CT or whatever other location I wanted, when either the enemy battlemech had been knocked down or I used a precision strike. Precision strike also works on attacking the rear torso sections, which have far less armor than the front torso sections, if you're in a position to do so.

Jump jets are generally overpowered. They can be placed on any battlemech, even if their tabletop design doesn't allow for it, and increase evasion from movement, plus making it easy to jump over 'mechs for precision strikes to the rear torso.

If a mechwarrior sustains their maximum number of injuries (depends on their gut skills; I think it starts at 3 injuries), then the mechwarrior is disabled, which disables the battlemech. Although rare unless you're intentionally trying for it, this does happen in the regular course of combat and results in the 'mech being fully salvageable (i.e. three components of the battlemech are available for salvage, and every three components you obtain are turned into a fully-usable battlemech).

Melee has its uses when attacking a 'mech with high evasion, which reduces your chances of hitting it with weapons but disappears entirely when hit with a melee attack. Plus, some 'mechs have unusually high melee damage (there are also special modifications to increase this), which can tear through lighter 'mechs.

 

[Jason Liang]

See what I don't get is that you guys can easily recognize that Battletech combat is shit because knockdown is OP

but you guys can't recognize that AoD combat is shit because knockdown is OP

 

[fantadomat]

See what I don't get is that you guys can easily recognize that Battletech combat is shit because knockdown is OP

but you guys can't recognize that AoD combat is shit because knockdown is OP

I wouldn't call AoD shit,just highly overrated.

 

[Alpharius]

See what I don't get is that you guys can easily recognize that Battletech combat is shit because knockdown is OP

but you guys can't recognize that AoD combat is shit because knockdown is OP

Nah, battletech combat is shit because half the weapons and mechs are garbage, AI is and the difficulty is balanced so that even a can beat the game.

AoD combat is non-shit because it has multiple viable playstyles, balanced weapons and the difficulty is apropriate for non- people (especially if using hybrid build).

 

[Cael]

Yes, knockdown is horrendously overpowered because you get free called shots on the fallen battlemech until it picks itself up. The tactics skill has two points where a mechwarrior's called shot ability improves (IIRC, "called shot bonus" and "called shot mastery"), which drastically improves a mechwarrior's chances of hitting a called shot target, whether a free called shot on a fallen 'mech or a called shot using precision strike. It seems that the primary use of LRMs and SRMs is to knockdown 'mechs (some other weapons also cause stability loss, but not as much as missiles).

Of course, precision strike itself is also overpowered, since you can simply target a 'mech's central torso and kill it quickly. I put my tacticians into battlemechs with an AC-20 (100 damage with a standard one), and this was highly effective at smashing through the CT or whatever other location I wanted, when either the enemy battlemech had been knocked down or I used a precision strike. Precision strike also works on attacking the rear torso sections, which have far less armor than the front torso sections, if you're in a position to do so.

Jump jets are generally overpowered. They can be placed on any battlemech, even if their tabletop design doesn't allow for it, and increase evasion from movement, plus making it easy to jump over 'mechs for precision strikes to the rear torso.

If a mechwarrior sustains their maximum number of injuries (depends on their gut skills; I think it starts at 3 injuries), then the mechwarrior is disabled, which disables the battlemech. Although rare unless you're intentionally trying for it, this does happen in the regular course of combat and results in the 'mech being fully salvageable (i.e. three components of the battlemech are available for salvage, and every three components you obtain are turned into a fully-usable battlemech).

Melee has its uses when attacking a 'mech with high evasion, which reduces your chances of hitting it with weapons but disappears entirely when hit with a melee attack. Plus, some 'mechs have unusually high melee damage (there are also special modifications to increase this), which can tear through lighter 'mechs.

Actually, TT allows jump jets on all 'mechs. There are no restrictions. But TT doesn't have things like called shots and precision strikes unless you have a targeting computer which doesn't come around until the Clans or post-3050 for the IS. Even then, it replaces the bonus from the computer with a +3 to-hit penalty, which is huge in the 2d6 environment. On top of that, a prone 'mech (or one that is knocked down) is harder to hit from range (but easier if you are right next to it), so you really only want to knock one down if it is right next to you for the melee attack. Going prone is a valid tactic in TT, although you would only be able to fire weapons from one arm and half a torso when you do so. And of course, there is no evasion in TT. That is a made up mechanic because HBS dropped the movement rate to-hit penalties which were the main thing in helping fast 'mechs survive in the game.

 

[Cael]

Haven't seen a melee weapon in this game so far but now I am in the mood to train a Pilot in piloting and guts, give him a Mech with the highest melee damage I kind find, with max armor and filled with small lasers/MG.

There's no melee weapons in nuBT.

There are melee dmg mods

Already? That didn't take long :D

Extremely slanted 'mechs tend to be the first thing that new players of BTech come up with. Things like the 6 Clan large pulse laser 100 tonner, the Gausszilla (4 gauss rifles), the Charger Mk2, etc. It takes a while for players to settle down and build 'mechs that can take care of reasonable scenarios and use different weapons and equipment to enhance the theme of the 'mech. But, that is the fun of the whole thing. Coming up with different 'mech configurations and figuring out what works best with each other is half the fun of BTech, really. Seeing the combination work and wreck face is the other half.

 

[Drakron]

A bit off topic but I do recall back in Mechcommander that due to weight limits I ended up going for the most mechs I could fit within the deployment limit that the biggest nechs, I do remember having Atlas available on the last mission but deciding not using then in favor of more mechs of lower tonnage.

Also anyone that played it knows the MadCat trick that you can get one on the first mission but even if you somehow managed to salvage it mostly intact you really cannot deploy it due to weight limits and the fact Mechcommander missions were about trying to end the mission with mechs with some weapons still functional, if you deployed the MadCat earlier chances are you would fail the mission because of attrition were it would slowly lose armor, weapons and even internals were 2-4 light mechs despite being "lesser armed" were far better off sue to their speed and ability to focus fire and even losing one would not be a autofailure.

I am saying this because its important to remember that sure if you can field 4 Atlas then do it unless it requires to be blowing up a convoy that have faster speed, also they should not treat dropships as unlimited deployment tonnage since all that does is create a situation were you just deploy what is either heaviest if its a assault or the heaviest fast enoug in case is destruction of a moving target that is leaving the area, no limits just leads to "the heaviest mech wins" because those are assault mechs created to assault entrenched fortified positions but they have limits such as costs, tonnage deployment and speed that makes then unsuitable in other scenarios.

 

[Cael]

A bit off topic but I do recall back in Mechcommander that due to weight limits I ended up going for the most mechs I could fit within the deployment limit that the biggest nechs, I do remember having Atlas available on the last mission but deciding not using then in favor of more mechs of lower tonnage.

Also anyone that played it knows the MadCat trick that you can get one on the first mission but even if you somehow managed to salvage it mostly intact you really cannot deploy it due to weight limits and the fact Mechcommander missions were about trying to end the mission with mechs with some weapons still functional, if you deployed the MadCat earlier chances are you would fail the mission because of attrition were it would slowly lose armor, weapons and even internals were 2-4 light mechs despite being "lesser armed" were far better off sue to their speed and ability to focus fire and even losing one would not be a autofailure.

I am saying this because its important to remember that sure if you can field 4 Atlas then do it unless it requires to be blowing up a convoy that have faster speed, also they should not treat dropships as unlimited deployment tonnage since all that does is create a situation were you just deploy what is either heaviest if its a assault or the heaviest fast enoug in case is destruction of a moving target that is leaving the area, no limits just leads to "the heaviest mech wins" because those are assault mechs created to assault entrenched fortified positions but they have limits such as costs, tonnage deployment and speed that makes then unsuitable in other scenarios.

There is only one mission that I recall in MechComm1 that has a weight limit that is exceeded by a single 'mech (and that was because it was specifically designed to allow only a vehicle to be taken, not a 'mech).

The Madcat was in the second mission, but there is a mod/patch that allows you to get one in the first. If you use the mod, you can end up with both. Alternatively, there is a code you can use to ensure 100% of 'mechs are salvaged regardless of how they are blown up.

A single Madcat, properly equipped (PPC boat), basically allowed you to breeze through most of the initial missions. The danger of bringing only the biggest 'mech to the missions is that your other 'mechwarriors are left behind. You end up with one very good Elite 'MechWarrior, and a whole bunch of greenies. That is not good when you come up against the later missions. You also want at least one runner to grab all the loot on the map. Some of them are in really out of the way places, and you really want a very fast jumper to get to them before you get stuck in a really major battle and have to concentrate on it, or before the mission ends.

Speed is often underrated in MechCommander. I tend to prefer faster 'mechs to heavier ones most times if I have the pilots and drop capacity for it. That is why I never use Atlases or Turkinas.

 

[Ezeekiel]

Hey Cael, do you by any chance know how the underlying mechanics in Mech Commander 1 worked? I remember being unable to make my mechs do alpha strikes or anything, there was no heat gauge etc... Put all light lasers on an Atlas for fun and he just kind of cycled through them slowly, barely did much for his fire rate etc.
I ended up with nothing but PPC/ER PPC boat-ish mechs I think, but I also knew fuck-all about Battletech at the time until I finally looked into it.

The fire rates are fixed. They tell you what the fire rate of the individual weapons in MechCommander is. I don't know why you think more would make them first faster...

MechCommander basically defaults to alpha strikes. The second anything comes into range, all weapons of that range bracket will open fire on it. After that, it is dependent on the fire rate to see what fires next.

Now that you mention it, I think I remember that's how it usually worked. I can't seem to recall rate of fire stats, but oh well.
Thing is, when I experimented with the atlas and different amounts of light lasers, it would not alpha strike or wouldn't keep alpha striking (I don't remember if the first attack on a target was an alpha strike with the lasers, but it definitely ended up just going pew... pew individually at some point)...
Instead it just ended up firing a laser here, a laser there, even though they all had the same range.
Maybe a bug or perhaps if you have too many lasers the beams will overlap and it seems like it's only firing a lower amount? Don't remember any serious damage happening, either. But this was ages ago so maybe it's just my memory... I found it weird though because the behavior was different compared to the the PPC alpha strikes. The shots did not stay synced or never were for some reason.

Hence my comment on the fire rate. Of course the rate of fire for individual lasers stays fixed, but as it was seemingly firing them in sequence one after the other rather than as an alpha strike, I was expecting more lasers = faster sequence because more lasers to cycle through.

Heat is not overtly implemented in the game, but it is sort of taken into account in the weapon weights. That is why most of the weights of the weapons are what they are (weight of weapon + weight heat sinking required (in lots of 0.5t) + ammo (if any)).

PPC and ER PPC boats are pretty standard in TT, depending on the faction you are playing. Clanners would be crazy NOT to play ER PPC boats (unless they are greenies, then go with Large Pulse Lasers). PPCs are a very good balance of heat, range and damage, and most 'mechs armed with PPCs in ANY era are respected beasts (except the Banshee; it sucks big donkeys).

In both MechCommanders, ER PPC/ER Large Laser boat is the way to go. You want the range and striking power. Use LRM to fill in the weight/space/heat holes. The shorter the range of the weapon, the less you want it on your 'mechs. PPC, Large Laser and ER laser are acceptable alternatives, but anything else should be seriously looked at.

Yeah, that's how I did it pretty much.
In the mechwarrior games gauss rifles and AC20's seemed more feasible because you could aim them yourself and just murder mechwarriors directly, but in MC the lack of ammo and huge weight plus the AC's range just made them so risky.

 

[Cael]

Now that you mention it, I think I remember that's how it usually worked. I can't seem to recall rate of fire stats, but oh well.
Thing is, when I experimented with the atlas and different amounts of light lasers, it would not alpha strike or wouldn't keep alpha striking (I don't remember if the first attack on a target was an alpha strike with the lasers, but it definitely ended up just going pew... pew individually at some point)...
Instead it just ended up firing a laser here, a laser there, even though they all had the same range.
Maybe a bug or perhaps if you have too many lasers the beams will overlap and it seems like it's only firing a lower amount? Don't remember any serious damage happening, either. But this was ages ago so maybe it's just my memory... I found it weird though because the behavior was different compared to the the PPC alpha strikes. The shots did not stay synced or never were for some reason.

Hence my comment on the fire rate. Of course the rate of fire for individual lasers stays fixed, but as it was seemingly firing them in sequence one after the other rather than as an alpha strike, I was expecting more lasers = faster sequence because more lasers to cycle through.

I haven't run across that kind of behaviour before, but then again, I tend to go with the heaviest weapons I can squeeze in, so I could have missed it. I suppose it is possible that they have a fixed number of points on a 'mech where weapons could come from, so they have to split up the number of lasers amongst the different spots and repeat them as fast as possible if the number exceeds the total number of spots. That is how NWN, for example, handles it if you have far too many attacks per round. It splits the combat round into 3 segments and each segment can only have 3 attacks. So, if you have more than 3 attacks, the remainder going into the next one. If you get more than 9 attacks, I think it just drops any attack above nine.

Yeah, that's how I did it pretty much.
In the mechwarrior games gauss rifles and AC20's seemed more feasible because you could aim them yourself and just murder mechwarriors directly, but in MC the lack of ammo and huge weight plus the AC's range just made them so risky.

Never bothered with those in MW games except MW4 where the LB20X was insanely overpowered due to the knockdown (knockdown being overpowered seems to be a common theme in BTech games). Killed the last boss without getting a scratch because he ate multiple LB20X to the face at point blank range and fell over. Second salvo vapourised him. In MW2M, the SRM2 Inferno was insanely overpowered. Fire a few into an enemy and just back up and watch him go nova or have limbs flying off.

 

[Galdred]

Actually, Knockdown being overpowered seems realistic, and would pinpoint why we don't use giant 2 legged vertical tanks IRL, so it could be considered self-derision (same as AT-ST losing to a bunch of Barbarian teddybears because they have stability issues).

 

[Spark Mandriller]

Thing is, when I experimented with the atlas and different amounts of light lasers, it would not alpha strike or wouldn't keep alpha striking (I don't remember if the first attack on a target was an alpha strike with the lasers, but it definitely ended up just going pew... pew individually at some point)...
Instead it just ended up firing a laser here, a laser there, even though they all had the same range.
Maybe a bug or perhaps if you have too many lasers the beams will overlap and it seems like it's only firing a lower amount?

I tested just now and they all fired as a group for me. Tried an Atlas and a Turkina loaded with lasers and they just fired one big salvo every five seconds, nothing between. Might be a bug that was fixed or something.
Ammo using weapons in Mechcommander would be a lot more attractive if you were allowed to take extra ammo bins. I'd be willing to experiment with a UAC20 mech if it had extra ammo, but only 10 shots is just ridiculously low. Same story with gauss rifles, they could be a competitor to ER PPCs with extra ammo, but with only 16 shots they turn into dead weight really fast. They're useful for the enemy, but not for you.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

LRMs were kind of the odd exception there in PPCCommander because a single LRM unit was surprisingly weight efficient.

Actually, Knockdown being overpowered seems realistic, and would pinpoint why we don't use giant 2 legged vertical tanks IRL, so it could be considered self-derision (same as AT-ST losing to a bunch of Barbarian teddybears because they have stability issues).

I would say that considerations like abundance of weak points, massive profile, and sinking in almost all surfaces are bigger problems than the whole stability problem in regards to IRL considerations. Though the stability does kick in when you consider that due to being vertical you couldn't slap a tank gun on it because it'd knock itself on its ass when firing (if the gun didn't just tear itself loose from the arm/armpit/shoulder/whatever generic location).

 

[PanteraNera]

There are melee dmg mods

Already? That didn't take long :D

It comes with the base game, it is pieces of equipment I should have named it "melee dmg equipment".
There are "Arm mods" that give +10 / +15 dmg to melee and "Leg mods" that increase DFA (death from above) dmg to enemy or reduce dmg taken to your own legs.

Also there is other equipment, a rangefinder that increases view range of the mech (25-50m), communication systems that increase morale , and targeting system that give +1-3 ACC for eiter ballistics, lasers or missiles, also Gyros that reduce stab damage taken and "armored cockpits" that increase the pilots health ...

 

[Ezeekiel]

I tested just now and they all fired as a group for me. Tried an Atlas and a Turkina loaded with lasers and they just fired one big salvo every five seconds, nothing between. Might be a bug that was fixed or something.

That's really strange then. Bug indeed. Did happen just after the game came out, after all. BTW, how is the DPS with such a setup? I got fuck-all damage back then.

Ammo using weapons in Mechcommander would be a lot more attractive if you were allowed to take extra ammo bins. I'd be willing to experiment with a UAC20 mech if it had extra ammo, but only 10 shots is just ridiculously low. Same story with gauss rifles, they could be a competitor to ER PPCs with extra ammo, but with only 16 shots they turn into dead weight really fast. They're useful for the enemy, but not for you.

That last part is fairly common in games, huh. With tactics as well. Enemy only exists in the one mission or whatever and doesn't have to worry about ammo or it's own existence too much.

And yeah, mech commander 1 could have used some more in-depth loadout customization.

 

[Cael]

Actually, Knockdown being overpowered seems realistic, and would pinpoint why we don't use giant 2 legged vertical tanks IRL, so it could be considered self-derision (same as AT-ST losing to a bunch of Barbarian teddybears because they have stability issues).

If BTech was about realism, we won't be using 'mechs...

<- getting flashbacks to arguments with people who scream about how "it is not realistic" when they were playing a fucking wizard in DnD who is in love with his fireballs.

 

[Ezeekiel]

LRMs were kind of the odd exception there in PPCCommander because a single LRM unit was surprisingly weight efficient.

Actually, Knockdown being overpowered seems realistic, and would pinpoint why we don't use giant 2 legged vertical tanks IRL, so it could be considered self-derision (same as AT-ST losing to a bunch of Barbarian teddybears because they have stability issues).

I would say that considerations like abundance of weak points, massive profile, and sinking in almost all surfaces are bigger problems than the whole stability problem in regards to IRL considerations. Though the stability does kick in when you consider that due to being vertical you couldn't slap a tank gun on it because it'd knock itself on its ass when firing (if the gun didn't just tear itself loose from the arm/armpit/shoulder/whatever generic location).

You could do stuff about the recoil and whatnot probably... But AT and AA missiles as a loadout make much more sense, coupled with something like 1 or more 30mm autocannons firing hedp like on the apache for use against unarmored stuff and infantry. Add point defenses (available in the mechwarrior series iirc as little mg's).

That being said, the mech designs don't seem flexible enough to actually get up on their own, or at times lack strong enough arms as well. Add in the often flat and boxy rather than shaped -armor and easily destroyed cockpits and eh...
Would at the very least need a total redesign of the mechs to make them even remotely workable.

 

[Ezeekiel]

Actually, Knockdown being overpowered seems realistic, and would pinpoint why we don't use giant 2 legged vertical tanks IRL, so it could be considered self-derision (same as AT-ST losing to a bunch of Barbarian teddybears because they have stability issues).

If BTech was about realism, we won't be using 'mechs...

Or shooting at no more than 225 meters with our long range missiles or whatever comically short range it was
I had a good laugh at the mech commander manual even back in the day as a clueless youngster.
They did have some silly explanation for it, I think. I'm sure you remember better than I. Guidance technology limitations due to losing technology or some such?