KickStarter BATTLETECH - turn-based mech combat from Harebrained Schemes

[Bladeract]

I went off and played the game 7 times. I'm now ready to discuss!

 

[Kutulu]

Haha....

 

[Country_Gravy]

At this point I think we can all agree that they did an amazing job bringing TT BT to the PC. GOTY!

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

At this point I think we can all agree that they did an amazing job bringing TT BT to the PC. GOTY!

you're really lazy

 

[Haba]

Cael is a bro. That is all.

Even worse, Cael is right.

That's highly problematic.

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/06/04/battletech-speed-options-patch-details/

BattleTech devs talk slowness, mods and what to expect from the next update

I’ve been on something of an emotional journey with Harebrained Schemes’ turn-based mech combat game, BattleTech. I was turned off by its unusually slow animation speeds and drawn-out wars of attrition during my first dozen-odd hours of play, but a combination of speed-up mods and deepening understanding of rules the game itself did not take the time to explain saw me fall ever-deeper in love with it. Many people, especially fans of its tabletop source material, adored BattleTech from the get-go, but others expressed similar concerns to me about its pacing – and soon enough the developers announced that their forthcoming first major update would offer new, official speed-tweaking options.

So, I bounced a few questions off BattleTech game director Mike McCain and ended up with some candid answers about exactly what we can expect from those options, the original design intentions behind the game’s languid pace, how the team feel about it being altered by mods and why they’d “love to improve on” how BattleTech currently explains how to best take down a giant killing machine.

RPS: BattleTech is rather unhurried about its movement and animation speed. What led you to settle on that kind of pace for it?

Mike McCain, Game Director: Yeah, I think it’s just evolved over time, for a few different reasons. Selling the scale and weight of ‘Mech combat was certainly an important goal for us from the start of development, and BattleTech has always been more “giant lumbering war-machines” than some of the other mecha franchises out there. We wanted combat to feel visceral and cinematic – to not just be pieces on a game board. The default camera behavior really helps convey the scale of ‘Mechs, but of course takes time. And, there’s a lot of player-communication that can happen during a given action, so some of our steps to try to ensure that cause-and-effect and action results are clearly conveyed have probably caused turns to take a bit longer.

RPS: How has the response been to the game’s slowness, generally? Were there many other complaints about it, or was it just me being grumpy and time-starved?

McCain: No, you’re not alone! It seems like most players are content with the pace of the game, but we’ve also heard from many players (and some other reviewers) who wish the game moved along faster. Or from players who are starting to want more pacing control, now that they’ve played 50 or 100 hours of the game or more. We had gotten a little feedback like this during pre-release testing, but I’ll admit that I didn’t expect it to be AS frequent of a reaction as it has been. Combat used to be slower actually, during early development – so our internal compasses may have become somewhat skewed over time.

RPS: What about the pauses before and after some actions and sounds? What’s the thinking behind those?

McCain: Oh yeah, I recall you speculating about this in an earlier article – generally we were just trying to ensure that there’s enough time to digest the results of a given action. And in a few cases to keep MechWarrior VO emotes and ‘Mech audio from colliding. We may have been trying too hard to make sure players wouldn’t miss things, that combat would stay digestible.

RPS: How do you feel about the player-made mods which speed things up?

McCain: Honestly, we’re always glad when players are passionate enough about the game to put things like that out there. Our only concern is that we don’t officially support modding – and some of the changes people have been applying could be brittle, or break down the road as we update the game. So it’s like, I’m all for folks modifying the game to suit their needs, in principle – I just also don’t want players to end up inadvertently having a bad experience because of a mod they downloaded.

Changing specific json settings, at least, is usually pretty safe – like changing those delays to zero – you just might need to re-apply it after game updates, or if you ever need to verify your game files.

RPS: Can you tell us more about the official speed tweaks you plan to offer in the forthcoming update? How extensive will they be? What are the red lines you don’t want them to cross, in terms of preserving your original vision for this game?

McCain: Good segue. In our first big update, among other things, we’re adding a full speed-up mode that can be enabled or disabled at any time from the settings menu. It greatly accelerates the majority of a given action, then eases out of the acceleration at the end – so that you don’t miss where a unit ends up on the map, or seeing the results of an attack. We’re also adding an “on-demand speedup” function – basically, you can hit the SPACEBAR during an action to accelerate only that action. I’m excited about this one for players like me who might often want to watch the action play out, while still having the ability to “fast-forward” when desired.

And yeah it’s an interesting question about “original vision”, I’d say we don’t really put too much stock in that. During development it’s important to have a clear set of goals, and selling the scale and weight of ‘Mech combat was definitely one of those. Post-launch though, right now it’s all about reacting to player feedback. And that includes re-evaluating things like pacing.

If enough players would like better pacing control, then it kind of doesn’t matter what our original thoughts and desires on pacing were. It’s really important to us as a team that we’re willing to update our goals and plans in light of new information. In this case, player reactions to the game at launch. Sometimes people can really hunker down on a position and have a hard time shifting their viewpoint, even as all the data changes around them – we try really hard not to be guilty of that. For that matter, I appreciated your willingness to re-assess BattleTech as you got deeper into the game.

Anyway – if we can give players more options to customize the experience as they like, that’s good for us because it’s good for them.

RPS: Why does the in-mission tutorial stop short of mentioning several critical mechanics that differ from the TBS norm – stuff that’s perhaps obvious to long-term BattleTech players but might only become clear after many hours for newcomers – in favour of tucking it into dialogue trees with the base mode NPCs? Is this something that might be adjusted in later updates?

McCain: Time, mostly! Putting some information in dialogue trees wasn’t about trying to tuck it away, it was about trying to make sure it got in. Our content creation pipeline does a lot of things well, but unfortunately, constructing tutorial missions was a more time-consuming (and error-prone) operation for us, so we focused on critical-path tutorialisation in mission and then did our best to augment that with the out-of-mission dialogue. We’d love to improve on this in some way in the future, but we’re still evaluating what to prioritise after Update 1.

I’ll add that we’ve been very grateful for all the fan-created resources that started to come out even before launch, there’s some great write-ups and Youtube videos explaining different aspects of combat and mercenary play out there now, and I’m glad the community has done so much to help fill in some of those gaps for new players.

RPS: What’s the fastest way to take down a King Crab? Asking for a friend.

McCain: Definitely stay out of range of those AC/20’s for as long as possible, try to deal stability damage from range – look for ++ LRMs and PPCs with extra stability damage – and use any higher initiative units in your Lance to your advantage. Precision Strike and focusing your attacks on the left or right facing are also generally good ideas to maximize the effectiveness of your damage on a tougher enemy unit. The more you can pile onto that LT or RT location through a combination of knockdown called shots, Precision Strike, and positioning, the quicker you’ll break through the shell to that soft internal structure.

RPS: Thanks for your time.

 

[Mark Richard]

Standout quote: "I'm a little bit disgusted."

 

[Darth Roxor]

the actual true response is you roll with 4 firestarters

 

[Bladeract]

My biggest annoyance in TT is faggits who decide play in a light mech then refuse to close in on a large mech (where they have a huge chance to get behind and wipe it out with criticals). Way to be useless flying targets you fucking idiots. Looks like one of these clowns made the game, that explains a lot

 

[Cael]

Fair enough, perhaps the issue isn't the spotter logic per se but that the game is balanced for lance vs lance and not this two-on-one situation, at least not without more interesting objective-and-evacuation mechanics.

BTech came up with the term Combat Loss Grouping. A CLG basically means that 'mechs of the same tonnage reach the state of disfunction in terms of combat abilities at around the same time, all other things being equal. It allows people to sort of calculate/expect when entire groups of 'mechs will become combat ineffective due to accumulated damage.

This means that the entire game is originally balanced for equal force vs equal force combat. 1 vs 1, lance vs lance, company vs company. It is not meant for asymmetrical warfare where 1 'mech takes on 20. Although, it has been known to happen, that is more the exception rather than the rule (and is usually the result of a real BTech player fighting against the likes of a Codexian HBS shill, aka dumbfucks).

 

[Cael]

My biggest annoyance in TT is faggits who decide play in a light mech then refuse to close in on a large mech (where they have a huge chance to get behind and wipe it out with criticals). Way to be useless flying targets you fucking idiots. Looks like one of these clowns made the game, that explains a lot

You can't get crits unless you breach the armour first. A large 'mech can take a few volleys to the rear from a light 'mech (due to the random nature of the hit locations) and can total the light 'mech before it can breach the rear armour. It is a high risk strategy to close in with a heavy 'mech with a light 'mech before it is worn down. The low risk way is to snipe at medium-long range until the heavy 'mech drops.

The HBS game goes the opposite way in that it forces you to fight at short range most of the time and/or allows you to close in the range fast enough that it doesn't matter. That is why any lightly armoured, fast 'mech will die horribly in the game. HBS basically forces you to adopt attrition warfare with little regard to tactics or strategy. You basically stood and delivered, with your only real option being who you fired on and with what. The fucktard even said they wanted you to feel the ponderous movements of the 'mechs and which explains why they took out everything that gave speed an advantage.

See the fast moving 'mechs in this Mechwarrior 3 ending?


They don't exist in the HBS game BY DESIGN.

 

[Cael]

the actual true response is you roll with 4 firestarters

Actually, the true response 4 Commandos loaded with Inferno rockets in their SRM pods. Flamers do 2 heat a shot at range 1-3. Infernoes do 2 heat per missile at range 1-9. You want to see an intact 'mech go nova without a scratch on it? Infernoes, man. Infernoes.

 

[Bladeract]

You can't get crits unless you breach the armour first. A large 'mech can take a few volleys to the rear from a light 'mech (due to the random nature of the hit locations) and can total the light 'mech before it can breach the rear armour. It is a high risk strategy to close in with a heavy 'mech with a light 'mech before it is worn down. The low risk way is to snipe at medium-long range until the heavy 'mech drops.

The HBS game goes the opposite way in that it forces you to fight at short range most of the time and/or allows you to close in the range fast enough that it doesn't matter. That is why any lightly armoured, fast 'mech will die horribly in the game. HBS basically forces you to adopt attrition warfare with little regard to tactics or strategy. You basically stood and delivered, with your only real option being who you fired on and with what. The fucktard even said they wanted you to feel the ponderous movements of the 'mechs and which explains why they took out everything that gave speed an advantage.

See the fast moving 'mechs in this Mechwarrior 3 ending?


They don't exist in the HBS game BY DESIGN.

Nah, you are wrong on this one. I know the rules quite well. SRM6 to the back is game over for most mechs most of the time even if it does not actually die that round. If a jenner gets behind a longbowman or rifleman for example, it is toast.

It's a lot harder to take down a king crab but if the guy's advice is to let it shoot out its AC 20 which can instakill any mech then he his an immense fucking idiot. If nothing else then getting inside the range of long range weapons alone makes it worthwhile.

 

[Cael]

Nah, you are wrong on this one. I know the rules quite well. SRM6 to the back is game over for most mechs most of the time even if it does not actually die that round. If a jenner gets behind a longbowman or rifleman for example, it is toast.

It's a lot harder to take down a king crab but if the guy's advice is to let it shoot out its AC 20 which can instakill any mech then he his an immense fucking idiot. If nothing else then getting inside the range of long range weapons alone makes it worthwhile.

SRM6 to the back is not game over. It may do 0 damage to the torso sections, which completely negates the advantage you have gained. Or it may do 2 damage to a couple, which won't breach the back armour of most 'mechs. For an effective backstab, you want a high damage weapon and hope for a torso hit so that you can instantly breach the armour and score crits. Medium/large lasers are good for this, as is the AC10/20 (but light 'mechs won't be able to carry those and have any reasonable speed until at least the Invasion-era when XL engines and Endo-Steel come into play). That said, a SRM6 with Inferno rounds is godly in that scenario as it would make a mess of any response the target is going to give and its next round is going to be hampered by low movement rate and low accuracy. Just not the normal warheads.

Now, as for the 'mechs you have chosen, the Rifleman is notorious for being a badly designed 'mech. Under-armoured, under-heat sinked, under-ammo'd, over-gunned. However, what it can do is flip its arms and let you have it in the face with 2 large lasers and 2 AC5s as a last ditch measure, which can be nasty for light 'mechs, especially if it had the opportunity to take potshots at you as you run in. There are no light 'mechs in the 3025 era that can go above 12 hexes, and that means there is potential for at least one round of fire before you get to behind him at point blank. And the Jenner is one of the worst of the lot, being that it has Locust level of armouring, a big heat problem if it alpha strikes and a location with nothing but ammo in it, which means a crit there is instant game over. If you want to close range backstab, run two Locust with 3 medium lasers (rip out the MGs and ammo) in lieu of a single Jenner. Flank the target and watch him cry.

The Longbowman doesn't exist. Now, if you are talking about the Longbow, then that is a specialist LRM boat. It would squeal if a light 'mech ran up to it from the front, nevermind the back.

You can't blame the fucktard for giving that advice. That is actually the advice given in the TRO (well, sort of) when it said that in history, most people dealt with the King Crab is to wait for it to run out of ammo and then kill it before it can run off. That sort of thing only works with HBS players (aka complete fucktards) because experienced BTech players won't run out of ammo unless there are more 'mechs than their entire ammo bay can take down with 80% hits (i.e., the King Crab is horribly outnumbered). And the problem becomes even worse once ComStar introduced their Clan-killer package to their King Crabs.

 

[Bladeract]

SRM6 to the back is not game over. It may do 0 damage to the torso sections, which completely negates the advantage you have gained. Or it may do 2 damage to a couple, which won't breach the back armour of most 'mechs. For an effective backstab, you want a high damage weapon and hope for a torso hit so that you can instantly breach the armour and score crits. Medium/large lasers are good for this, as is the AC10/20 (but light 'mechs won't be able to carry those and have any reasonable speed until at least the Invasion-era when XL engines and Endo-Steel come into play). That said, a SRM6 with Inferno rounds is godly in that scenario as it would make a mess of any response the target is going to give and its next round is going to be hampered by low movement rate and low accuracy. Just not the normal warheads.

Now, as for the 'mechs you have chosen, the Rifleman is notorious for being a badly designed 'mech. Under-armoured, under-heat sinked, under-ammo'd, over-gunned. However, what it can do is flip its arms and let you have it in the face with 2 large lasers and 2 AC5s as a last ditch measure, which can be nasty for light 'mechs, especially if it had the opportunity to take potshots at you as you run in. There are no light 'mechs in the 3025 era that can go above 12 hexes, and that means there is potential for at least one round of fire before you get to behind him at point blank. And the Jenner is one of the worst of the lot, being that it has Locust level of armouring, a big heat problem if it alpha strikes and a location with nothing but ammo in it, which means a crit there is instant game over. If you want to close range backstab, run two Locust with 3 medium lasers (rip out the MGs and ammo) in lieu of a single Jenner. Flank the target and watch him cry.

SRM6 is not instakill. It is probably game over once you get to that point though. You are almost guaranteed to get in two solid shots and very likely more, and all it takes is one critical especially a knockdown and you get more. And so on.

As for poorly designed mechs, well what isn't? Marauder and Warhammer and assault mechs, that's about it.

In megamek at least there is no armflipping bullshit. If you are not facing something you can't even fire on it.

The Longbowman doesn't exist. Now, if you are talking about the Longbow, then that is a specialist LRM boat. It would squeal if a light 'mech ran up to it from the front, nevermind the back.

You can't blame the fucktard for giving that advice. That is actually the advice given in the TRO (well, sort of) when it said that in history, most people dealt with the King Crab is to wait for it to run out of ammo and then kill it before it can run off. That sort of thing only works with HBS players (aka complete fucktards) because experienced BTech players won't run out of ammo unless there are more 'mechs than their entire ammo bay can take down with 80% hits (i.e., the King Crab is horribly outnumbered). And the problem becomes even worse once ComStar introduced their Clan-killer package to their King Crabs.

Well, I can and do blame him, why not? Just one more stupid thing said or done that show no one at HBS has a tactical bone in their body. A jenner will probably get instakill shot after a few rounds by a king crab, but a few light mechs together have a solid chance to take him down if they are not too retarded.

I fired up to play the fucking game finally, realize right away that they have the same fucking retarded hard point system as MW4 which is completely game ruining and makes playing with mech builds a waste of time. Fuck that guy and fuck HBS. So I can't even change from missles to autocannon let alone fill up on small lasers and make a bushwacker

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I fired up to play the fucking game finally, realize right away that they have the same fucking retarded hard point system as MW4 which is completely game ruining and makes playing with mech builds a waste of time. Fuck that guy and fuck HBS. So I can't even change from missles to autocannon let alone fill up on small lasers and make a bushwacker

Almost every type of battlemech has a few variants, and those variants allow for different combinations of weapons in different body parts. Thus, the key is to obtain the right variant for each type of 'mech, and then to modify that variant to your heart's desire.
Of course, this is a baffling design decision, since each of the variants are the same 'mech with different weapon loadouts installed, and it makes absolutely no sense for the player to be unable to transform one variant of a 'mech into another variant (or into the standard version).

 

[Cael]

SRM6 is not instakill. It is probably game over once you get to that point though. You are almost guaranteed to get in two solid shots and very likely more, and all it takes is one critical especially a knockdown and you get more. And so on.

Heh. I was talking TT. The HBS game is completely retarded to the point that nothing surprises me about it any more.

SRM in TT is good for 2 things: 1) crit-seeking, which means the target already has holes punched in it, or 2) Infernoes (if you haven't noticed, I am completely in love with the thing :D).

For a SRM6, you average 4 missiles hit, which means 4 hit locations, each taking 2 damage. The rear armour of even a Wasp/Stinger is able to take 1 SRM hit without breaching. You have a 1 in 6 chance of getting the CT, which means if you are looking at a pristine back, just about all 'mechs would, on average, survive 1 SRM6 volley to the back without a breach. No breach = no crits (unless TAC, but that happens from any angle, so I am not counting it).

For knockdown, you need to do 20 damage to the enemy and he needs to fail his Piloting roll. 20 damage is not likely with a single light 'mech, although the Commando, Jenner and Javelin all have the potential to do that much damage (the iconic light medium 'mech, the Panther, doesn't, hilariously enough). Potential doesn't mean likely, however. And the Piloting roll isn't that hard to pass either unless the target has other problems already.

I have been in scenarios when a heavy has jumped behind an assault and whacked it in the rear with Gauss Rifle and Clan ER PPC. No breach. The assault just torso twisted, and shot the heavy in the face with an arm full of weapons, and completed the turn next round and burned the heavy to a skeleton with its whole arsenal. Mind you, I have also been in a lance vs lance fight where a single Masakari killed 2 enemy 'mechs with head shots in the first round and then landed a triple PPC strike to the CT of one of the two remaining 'mechs in the next round. It was basically "good game" after that. That fight was legendary in my BTech circle.

BTW, torso twisting and firing into the rear arc or arm flipping to fire both arms into the rear arc was in the original BTech rules.

As for poorly designed mechs, well what isn't? Marauder and Warhammer and assault mechs, that's about it.

In megamek at least there is no armflipping bullshit. If you are not facing something you can't even fire on it.

Quite a few, actually. The Marik variant Wolverine is pretty good. So is the Archer and Catapult. In fact, most stock 'mechs are good for their designed niche. Commando, Jenner, Panther, Urbie, Valkyrie, Javelin, Griffin, Trebuchet, Hunchback, etc. There are actually few 'mechs that are garbage, but when they are, they are REALLY garbage. Cicada, Charger, Banshee, Shadowhawk, Dragon, Jagermech... garbage, garbage, garbage, absolute shit garbage, garbage, 4 autocannon garbage. Even the Rifleman is better than those shit.

Well, I can and do blame him, why not? Just one more stupid thing said or done that show no one at HBS has a tactical bone in their body. A jenner will probably get instakill shot after a few rounds by a king crab, but a few light mechs together have a solid chance to take him down if they are not too retarded.

I fired up to play the fucking game finally, realize right away that they have the same fucking retarded hard point system as MW4 which is completely game ruining and makes playing with mech builds a waste of time. Fuck that guy and fuck HBS. So I can't even change from missles to autocannon let alone fill up on small lasers and make a bushwacker

If you have the map space, a single Jenner with a large laser and no other weapon has a significant chance of killing a King Crab. The HBS game doesn't give you that map space, however, nor does it give you speed bonuses to survival.

 

[Cael]

I fired up to play the fucking game finally, realize right away that they have the same fucking retarded hard point system as MW4 which is completely game ruining and makes playing with mech builds a waste of time. Fuck that guy and fuck HBS. So I can't even change from missles to autocannon let alone fill up on small lasers and make a bushwacker

Almost every type of battlemech has a few variants, and those variants allow for different combinations of weapons in different body parts. Thus, the key is to obtain the right variant for each type of 'mech, and then to modify that variant to your heart's desire.
Of course, this is a baffling design decision, since each of the variants are the same 'mech with different weapon loadouts installed, and it makes absolutely no sense for the player to be unable to transform one variant of a 'mech into another variant (or into the standard version).

My excuse for my RPG campaign is that your merc company isn't skilled enough to do that. You can replace like for like because things like the autocannon shell autoloaders and linkages are already there or the energy conduits are already there or the missile rack system is already there. But to replace a missile launcher with an autocannon is beyond your company's technological prowess because it meant a complete redesign of the interior of the 'mech from the ammo bay to the autocannon to allow for the passage of the ammo.

The reality, though, is to make Omnimechs that much more special when they turn up :D

 

[Bladeract]

Almost every type of battlemech has a few variants, and those variants allow for different combinations of weapons in different body parts. Thus, the key is to obtain the right variant for each type of 'mech, and then to modify that variant to your heart's desire.
Of course, this is a baffling design decision, since each of the variants are the same 'mech with different weapon loadouts installed, and it makes absolutely no sense for the player to be unable to transform one variant of a 'mech into another variant (or into the standard version).

Ok. Well, that salvages the situation somewhat, though it is odd. Maybe I will try again.

 

[Lone Wolf]

as MW4 which is completely game ruining and makes playing with mech builds a waste of time. Fuck that guy and fuck HBS. So I can't even change from missles to autocannon let alone fill up on small lasers and make a bushwacker

Well, they're Inner Sphere mechs circa 3025, not omnimechs. Once Clan mechs are in, you can start playing hardpoint tetris all you want.

 

[Cael]

Well, they're Inner Sphere mechs circa 3025, not omnimechs. Once Clan mechs are in, you can start playing hardpoint tetris all you want.

Wrong. In canon and all TROs, they play hardpoint tetris with every single 'mech. Classic example is the Hunchback. You want a Hunchback with a bunch of medium lasers instead of the iconic AC20? Done (4P variant). You want one with SRMs instead? Also done (4SP). You want one with LRMs instead of the AC20? HBK-4J variant. They even have a name for non-AC20 variants: Swayback.

Omnimechs merely made it easier to reconfigure a 'mech in the field and to repair (because you just replaced the weapon pod rather than having to slice open the 'mech to pull the weapon out).

 

[DiverNB]

Of all the problems with the game (Weapon balancing, bad mission design, boring story) RPS focuses on...slow turns. Brilliant.

I am also now in the assault stage of the game, after having grinded lot of missions in lights/mediums. My opinion has changed from "eh" to "fuck this". It is not fun to face a mix of 8 fully armored assault/heavy mechs at once, especially when they have the reinforcements spawn directly behind your mechs and fire straight into their backs on the turn they show up. Only real strategy at this point is using precision strike to core enemy mechs immediately. If it's a lance vs. lance mission they are at least a little more entertaining because you don't need to use precision strike, and then maneuvering/flanking at least come into play if you want to avoid internal damage.

 

[Galdred]

Of all the problems with the game (Weapon balancing, bad mission design, boring story) RPS focuses on...slow turns. Brilliant.

I am also now in the assault stage of the game, after having grinded lot of missions in lights/mediums. My opinion has changed from "eh" to "fuck this". It is not fun to face a mix of 8 fully armored assault/heavy mechs at once, especially when they have the reinforcements spawn directly behind your mechs and fire straight into their backs on the turn they show up. Only real strategy at this point is using precision strike to core enemy mechs immediately. If it's a lance vs. lance mission they are at least a little more entertaining because you don't need to use precision strike, and then maneuvering/flanking at least come into play if you want to avoid internal damage.

Slow turn is important. I have not played the game yet, so I cannot compare it to the other issues, but there are many games I had to give up on because they wasted my time, either with slow animations, or mindless required game actions.

That said, the speed issues doesn't make for interesting questions indeed.

 

[Infinitron]

wat

Thread: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/paradox-has-acquired-harebrained-schemes.122265/

 

[Cael]

10,000,000 DLCs incoming.

I'll buy the one with the Timber Wolf...

Don't make me post the MechCommander intro again :D