Best Owlcat Game So Far

[scytheavatar]

Tbh, both KM and Wrath could've been significantly improved had Owlcat sat down and removed the fat while acting as a competent DM where it's needed. They decided, instead, to dedicate untold amounts of dev time to extraneous systems that almost nobody likes to engage with even in the tabletop APs. It boggles my mind why they decided to include the two APs that most deviate from a standard RPG adventure. They could've easily adapted Rise of the Runelords, the most widely loved AP Paizo have ever published, and it would've turned out way better. I certainly don't think Rise of the Runelords is the best AP, but its flaws are both well known and the community are more than willing to overlook them considering the praise it gets. Owlcat could've slightly improved those bits too and it would've been great.

If I were them, my first choice for adaptation would've been Rise of the Runelords just because it's so popular and beloved, but my second choice would be Shattered Star. Since SS is a sort of "soft sequel" to Rise of the Runelords, it would've been pretty appropriate for a second game.

Rise of the Runelords would be a harder game to sell to the non Pathfinder fans, since it is a very classic D&D AP and the second half is almost all combat and dungeon crawling. Kingmaker stands out cause it is unique from the classic D&D experience and it is easier to sell a game where you become a king. Even if the process of becoming one sucks.

Who is the target audience for Owlcat's RPGs, if not CRPG players? And Owlcat RPGs aren't action games with some stats, they're RTwP/turn based D&D build autism, is a random person really going to like Kingmaker because it's 20% a kingdom minigame (that's not even in the game for the first 20h), if the other 80% is beating up kobolds? Maybe they did their research and it helps to sell more copies, but I don't see how.

Even among the BG1/BG2 loving CRPG players, not all of them play CRPGs for the combat and build autism. The Icewind Dale games sell way worse than the Baldur's Gate games which goes to show the market for combat-focus fans is much smaller.

 

[Lacrymas]

Even among the BG1/BG2 loving CRPG players, not all of them play CRPGs for the combat and build autism. The Icewind Dale games sell way worse than the Baldur's Gate games which goes to show the market for combat-focus fans is much smaller.

Hot take: maybe a lot of people aren't big into combat in RPGs because most RPG combat systems suck.

 

[Yosharian]

Even among the BG1/BG2 loving CRPG players, not all of them play CRPGs for the combat and build autism. The Icewind Dale games sell way worse than the Baldur's Gate games which goes to show the market for combat-focus fans is much smaller.

Hot take: maybe a lot of people aren't into big into combat in RPGs because most RPG combat systems suck.

And you would know!

 

[Dr Skeleton]

Tbh, both KM and Wrath could've been significantly improved had Owlcat sat down and removed the fat while acting as a competent DM where it's needed. They decided, instead, to dedicate untold amounts of dev time to extraneous systems that almost nobody likes to engage with even in the tabletop APs. It boggles my mind why they decided to include the two APs that most deviate from a standard RPG adventure. They could've easily adapted Rise of the Runelords, the most widely loved AP Paizo have ever published, and it would've turned out way better. I certainly don't think Rise of the Runelords is the best AP, but its flaws are both well known and the community are more than willing to overlook them considering the praise it gets. Owlcat could've slightly improved those bits too and it would've been great.

If I were them, my first choice for adaptation would've been Rise of the Runelords just because it's so popular and beloved, but my second choice would be Shattered Star. Since SS is a sort of "soft sequel" to Rise of the Runelords, it would've been pretty appropriate for a second game.

Rise of the Runelords would be a harder game to sell to the non Pathfinder fans, since it is a very classic D&D AP and the second half is almost all combat and dungeon crawling. Kingmaker stands out cause it is unique from the classic D&D experience and it is easier to sell a game where you become a king. Even if the process of becoming one sucks.

Who is the target audience for Owlcat's RPGs, if not CRPG players? And Owlcat RPGs aren't action games with some stats, they're RTwP/turn based D&D build autism, is a random person really going to like Kingmaker because it's 20% a kingdom minigame (that's not even in the game for the first 20h), if the other 80% is beating up kobolds? Maybe they did their research and it helps to sell more copies, but I don't see how.

Even among the BG1/BG2 loving CRPG players, not all of them play CRPGs for the combat and build autism. The Icewind Dale games sell way worse than the Baldur's Gate games which goes to show the market for combat-focus fans is much smaller.

Right, but that's comparing IWD and BG, and you can compare BG1/2 and Kingmaker. BG1 has none of the weird side content, and BG2 has what, the stronghold and thieves' guild, which are optional and amount to getting some gold every now and then. Nobody played BG2 for that. Minigames have nothing to do with the RPG part being more or less combat focused.
Were there no modules that would be less combat-focused, but didn't involve a huge side game? I don't know Pathfinder outside of Kingmaker and WoTR, so maybe, but I doubt it. I haven't played Rogue Trader, but as I understand it's not based on an existing module, and it still has minigames, so that explanation is pretty weak. No, I think someone at Owlcat simply wants to make RPGs with minigames and picked Kingmaker and WotR to adapt because of that.

Which maybe isn't bad in itself, it's ambitious, but these minigames are passable at best and detrimental to the RPG part at worst. You can set them to auto-play, but I trust Owlcat to auto play anything about as much as I trust a dog to drive a car, and the management side content is thoroughly baked into the structure of each game, both mechanically and narratively, you can't choose to not engage with it.

 

[Lacrymas]

WotR and KM are two of the very few modules that have extraneous mechanics. I *think* there is a single other AP that features something like this, but I don't remember which one it is and I'm not sure whether it was even out by the time Owlcat had to choose which one to adapt.

On top of the crusade mechanics in WotR, there's also the mythic paths and levels that need to be coded in. I don't think they are used in any other AP. Owlcat chose the hardest APs to translate in video game form due to all the extra shit almost nobody likes on tabletop either.

 

[Falksi]

 

[Nano]

Kingdom Management is fun imo. Kingmaker would be a lesser game without it.

 

[processdaemon]

Does anyone actually ask for these minigames that they keep adding them to games? Maybe we live in a bubble and they're well liked, but I've only ever seen people complain about them and every survey Owlcat sends me I rate them low and write them to stop making minigames, but they just don't listen

I enjoyed Kingdom Management, Crusade Mode and the ship battles in Rogue Trader (although the ship battles don't seem to be as controversial as the first two). As to why people like me are getting catered to over the louder voices on forums, I suspect that we may be more likely to fill in Owlcat's sometimes rather substantial feedback surveys than the people who get easily frustrated during repetitive tasks.

 

[Dr Skeleton]

I enjoyed Kingdom management in Kingmaker for maybe 1-2 chapters. The early part when you have your capital and max 1-2 villages and see new events and mechanics for the first time, and even that early part is clunky as hell and a lot of the design choices make no sense. Once you control multiple provinces and still have to deal with "howling wolves" events, build individual buildings and upgrade stats it becomes a chore. I don't think it's just about repetitive tasks, Kingmaker and WotR have some repetitive combat in the RPG mode, but somehow I'd rather clear out another dungeon with dretches and ghouls than play more of the crusade mode.

The council meetings in WotR and throne room choices in Kingmaker have some cool moments, I'll give them that. I'd rather play a game about something else, but those parts aren't bad.

I don't know how anyone enjoys the HoMM part of WotR. It's technically playable, but there's zero fun or challenge in it. Which is odd because some of the Owlcat people made HoMM V, maybe not the best HoMM game, but one of the good ones.

 

[HappyDaddyWow!]

Tbh, both KM and Wrath could've been significantly improved had Owlcat sat down and removed the fat while acting as a competent DM where it's needed.

Well said. I think one of the biggest flaws with RPGs and games in general now is that they're too fucking long. There's absolutely no reason a game needs to be longer than 60 hours, and most games would benefit from being 30 or so hours long. Realistically it's nearly impossible to create 100 hours worth of polished, interesting and fun content within a realistic development deadline.

This is especially apparent in Kingmaker. If you removed Kingdom Management, cut like half the tedious trash mob fights in every dungeon, and removed the filler errand side quests you'd easily remove like 20-40 hours from the game.

 

[Rhobar121]

Kingsmaker was way too long and from the end Varnhold practically became extremely boring.
A shitty kingdom management system that could lose you a campaign, especially when you could easily get a softlock by losing all potential candidates for one position.

 

[Sarkile]

WotR and KM are two of the very few modules that have extraneous mechanics. I *think* there is a single other AP that features something like this, but I don't remember which one it is and I'm not sure whether it was even out by the time Owlcat had to choose which one to adapt.

On top of the crusade mechanics in WotR, there's also the mythic paths and levels that need to be coded in. I don't think they are used in any other AP. Owlcat chose the hardest APs to translate in video game form due to all the extra shit almost nobody likes on tabletop either.

Most APs include random shit mechanics that are generally easy to ignore. Jade Regent introduced a caravan mechanic, and Skull and Shackles had a very poorly designed ship combat mechanic. These are probably the worst of the extraneous mechanics in Pathfinder 1E.

 

[Max Damage]

Didn't play Rogue Trader, WotR is much more fun than Kingmaker. I have hard time seeing Kingmaker as anything but stepping stone for the latter, kingdom management was boring and nonsensical, and most of the combat encounters were filler, worse companions too. Being able to turn your camera is also big improvement, and mystic powers add a lot of depth and customization.

 

[Fedora Master]

The gimmick minigames all manage to be tedious and unrewarding at the same time. They can all also be solved with easy to replicate cheese.

 

[Lacrymas]

The gimmick minigames all manage to be tedious and unrewarding at the same time. They can all also be solved with easy to replicate cheese.

Just like on tabletop.

 

[Velut]

Being able to turn your camera is also big improvement

Camera rotation is horrible, was horrible and always will be horrible. Fixed camera is the only way.
Hilariously, Owlcat managed to make it even worse with demon city where camera rotation changes the map.