Bethesda Softworks Forces Website to Pull Modding Tool

[Xi]

Looks like the modern Pinata is full of EULA candy. Just another tragedy of our time.

 

[Balor]

I'm a professional programmer and game developer, let me assure you, the ES Construction Kit is one of the best modding tools I've ever seen and is a fantastically designed piece of software.

I might be biased cause I mostly used it as a scripting tool, but you are quickly losing my respect now, NN. Because if you think that it's one of the best modding tools, you are have VERY little experience in them, or somehow acting as Bethsoft apologist. (Documentation is the most glaring problems, now there's bugs, total lack of support, etc). NWN one beats it with a pinky, while being tied to a tree.
More then that, it's not even MODDING TOOL at all. (That kinda explains the former, btw.) They used it to create the game themselves (and it's lacking functionality really shows that they didn't have something complex in mind).
So, releasing the CS was just an 'added extra', that didn't cost them a penny. How, it payed off 1000%... however, if they provided a BIT more support, it would pay even more... but they didn't.
I would not call it wise at all.
And besides, if CS is SO good, why people keep using TONS of third-party made utilities? IN fact, there was a much, MUCH better made alternative CS... at least, it would be if the author finished his work. But I've made most of my scripting in that CS, not in Vaniila one, which was pretty abyssmal in that respect. No wonder vanilla scripts usually were ten lines on average.

 

[MetalCraze]

WAIT QARL WAS BANNED?!

exactly my thoughts.
why did they do this? he was making their shitty oblivion... look... better... oh... I see

also I have to agree with Balor, TES CS is a pretty mediocre modding tool. NWN editor all the way. compare mods that came for morrowind/oblivion with mods that came for nwn1/nwn2.
for morrowind/oblivion it's just cosmetic mods
for nwn1/nwn2 it's whole new worlds

 

[DraQ]

Now, I might not have anything that could be called modding experience, but given the number of things folks at TESF modding forum declared impossible/mindnumbingly hard, TES CS comes off as extrmely poor when compared with, for example, UnrealED (even considering the general bugginess and quirkiness of the latter), which allows doing pretty much everything engine can handle (and some things it can't).

 

[galsiah]

As Balor made clear above, this is because it isn't really a modding tool - it's a tool to create content for the game itself, and released as-is as an extra. If you want to create more content that's essentially the same as content which already exists, it's pretty good. If you want to do anything different, it isn't.
The intention is pretty clear if you look at the Morrowind-->Oblivion CS changes - i.e. towards streamlining more-of-the-same production, and away from versatility (though it's more versatile in places, it's safe to presume that this was accidental ).

Bethesda might not be thinking "Mwahahaaahaaa!!! Screw the modders!!!" as they slash/avoid versatility - but that's simply because they're not thinking of modders at all. TESCS is built for Bethesda level designers to produce content; modders are an afterthought at best - less than that in design terms.

 

[Balor]

Exactly. Galsiah is better scripter then me, and he's knowing what he's talking about.
Btw, to becomes a more or less good scripter in MW, you had to know a LOT about undocumented features, use third-party programs, etc - not just 'whip out your already existing programming skills and get coding!'. I think it might appal a real programmer to script under CS - cause to get anything done, you MUST resort to a hack upon hack. Brain surgery 'per anus'.
In Oblivion, some parts became easier... some worse. For instance, my favourite 'event detector' - GetSoundPlaying was removed. Oh well, it's not like I care anymore.

 

[Mayday]

It's 'per rectum'.

 

[Starwars]

For all you people who understand these things, how do you think the NWN2 toolset holds up?

I'm starting to fart around in it, and I think it's a lot easier to find my way around it than the Oblivion one which I truthfully found very awkward to try and learn/use. I'm just wondering since people have always commented how hard the NWN2 toolset is, but I'm not seeing it when compared to others. It's not what I'd call worse than NWN1 either, just more things to do and some things takes a lot longer to accomplish (area creation).

 

[Volrath]

NWN2 toolset is more powerfull and complicated then the first. Things take much longer to produce which frustrates a lot of modders. Add to that the fact that it was notoriously buggy at release (saves getting corrupted, crashes, etc) and you end up with something that's offputting imo.

Then again games like Purgatorio show what the toolset is capable off.

 

[mjorkerina]

The NWN2 toolset is technically good but failed at what NWN1 was aiming for originally. The NWN2 toolset is better for talented people who wants to do a lot of work with it but when you just want to write down a small campaign to play with your friends and a dungeon master it just got a lot more complicated than the toolset of NWN1.

It's perfectly normal though for most toolsets to be harder than NWN1 toolset. NWN1 goal was to bring the friendly p&p experience on your computer. You were actively discouraged in the beginning to do things like persistent worlds with it. NWN1 toolset made simple to come up with towns, dungeons and NPC to be controlled by the dungeon master. You could write down a small campaign for your friends to play with in like a week, because ultimately most of the world interaction could be the DM job.
It's a wonder if we will ever have something like NWN1 again in the years to come.

 

[NiM82]

I'm a professional programmer and game developer, let me assure you, the ES Construction Kit is one of the best modding tools I've ever seen and is a fantastically designed piece of software.

It's a nice/easy to use world design tool, for dropping prefabs around, playing with the heightmap etc. But as others have said, it's gash for actually trying to do anything else in terms of gameplay and scripting. It's also far from being 'fantastically designed', there's lots of questionable UI design decisions and loads of undocumented bugs/quirks/features. No real support either.

 

[Raapys]

Would be cool if one of them would do like Valve did and give out the gameplay-part of the source code. Even Oblivion might have been fixed that way.

 

[WalterKinde]

That won't be likely , we are still waiting for them to Officially release Daggerfall as freeware, like they did with Arena a few years ago.
Why hold on to both games for such a long time is beyond me especially when they never continue to sell them, i mean if Daggerfall was available via the official beth store steam/gametap or any of the other online game download sellers then i could understand not releasing it.
And before anyone says because its sooo buggy, gaming companies have been releasing old buggy games as freeware saying they aren't responsible if you run into a bug for a while now.

 

[OccupatedVoid]

Has this mod been put on The Pirate Bay yet?

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Yeah... anyone got a working download for it? I'm pretty interesting in giving it a shot, for some reason.

 

[Wilco]

NWN2 toolset is more powerfull and complicated then the first. Things take much longer to produce which frustrates a lot of modders. Add to that the fact that it was notoriously buggy at release (saves getting corrupted, crashes, etc) and you end up with something that's offputting imo.

Then again games like Purgatorio show what the toolset is capable off.

I personally love the NWN2 toolset, it's still pretty damm easy to design something that looks really realistic and natural, but also original. Most of the online mods I've played (this was a few months ago, before MoTB was released) tend to be really rushed in this aspect - but this could be due to the focus on singleplayer rather than multiplayer with NWN2's server size limit.

The only problem I have with it is, like it's predecessor, the scripting engine is difficult due to the lack of a real tutorial. There is a lot of information spread out all over the internet with no good place to start.

 

[Naked Ninja]

I might be biased cause I mostly used it as a scripting tool, but you are quickly losing my respect now, NN.

Oh no.

More then that, it's not even MODDING TOOL at all. (That kinda explains the former, btw.) They used it to create the game themselves (and it's lacking functionality really shows that they didn't have something complex in mind).

Thats the best type of modding tool. And yes, yes it is a modding tool. The way you can overlay content on top of other content is pretty dang awesome (and not as simple to implement as you might imagine) and shows that their intention was, designed in from the most basic level of the system, to allow modders to add in content.

Lacking functionality huh? Like what? I browsed their scripting language, scripts, dialogue and quest functionality, it's pretty sweet. I could do so much with a tool like that. But it's proprietary, so I'll do my own.

So, releasing the CS was just an 'added extra', that didn't cost them a penny.

This is where you prove that you have no idea what you're talking about. The CS is very user friendly compared to the in-house tools most companies create and never release to public consumption. That takes a lot of time and effort. Read as "Programmer and Q&A salaries". Which translates into AT LEAST a couple of tens of thousands of dollars. You would be REALLY surprised at how long it takes to do what seems like "small stuff" to Joe Public.

And besides, if CS is SO good, why people keep using TONS of third-party made utilities?

So there are many many 3rd party apps which work with the CS to import new content? Wow, thats great. The biggest complaint a lot of artists have with Torque is it only has a few entry points into the art pipeline. Good job for making such a flexible tool Bethesda. Again, you show you have no clue guy.

IN fact, there was a much, MUCH better made alternative CS... at least, it would be if the author finished his work.

Yes, and that is the trick, getting the tool finished and fit for being hammered by thousands of users. This might surprise you but there are thousands, hundreds of thousands of pieces of unfinished software floating about the net. Read my sig.

Oh no, there are bugs you say!!! Really? Wow. I guess if you were a programmer you'd be aware that there doesn't exist a piece of software that is bug free.

also I have to agree with Balor, TES CS is a pretty mediocre modding tool. NWN editor all the way.

Oh yes, NWN editor is fantastic too. I'd say NWN is number 1, CS number 2 (although I like CS's content overlay technique over NWNs seperate modules. Yeah, it can be problematic if not handled right but HOO BOY does it open up great possibilities). Being second hardly makes it "mediocre". You guys just haven't been exposed to the horror that is the majority of in-house tools used by studios to make games. Even Arcanum's editor was...shudder.

but given the number of things folks at TESF modding forum declared impossible/mindnumbingly hard, TES CS comes off as extrmely poor

I wouldn't base my opinions off of what forum dwellers shout about. They have a tendency to be like toddlers screaming in a cot.

for example, UnrealED (even considering the general bugginess and quirkiness of the latter), which allows doing pretty much everything engine can handle (and some things it can't).

Yes, it allows you to do anything the engine can do, but then a blank C++ file allows you to do anything DirectX can do! Wow! CS has far superior content creation tools for your average user. Believe this or not, it is far harder to make powerful guis and systems which let your average joe start building quests, dialogue and suchlike simply and logically than it is to expose your scripting language to the world and say "here, go wild". The first is vast amounts of work, the second very little.

this is because it isn't really a modding tool - it's a tool to create content for the game itself

Actually, it's both of those things. You can invent a good number of mechanics via their system. The spirit hunger from MoTB for example. And it is as much a modding tool as a the NWN editor is.

though it's more versatile in places, it's stupid to presume that this was accidental

Fixed. Seriously, if you think adding versatility is "accidental" you need your head checked and are obviously not a programmer. Code is like an iceberg, the average user sees the tip of it. To support that versatility someone had to purposefully fit it into the framework, build in the support functions, go through the code altering all the places the code did it via the old method etc etc....you guys are clueless.

TESCS is built for Bethesda level designers to produce content; modders are an afterthought at best - less than that in design terms.

Again with the cluelessness. You have no idea how fugly tools designed for "Bethesda level designers" can be. They'd make you beg for the user-friendliness of TESCS. But hey, a general rule of software dev is no matter how much effort you put into a tool users will ALWAYS, always whine and complain and want more. They are never happy and always assume you spend months and years of your life coding systems because you don't give a shit about them at all.

Exactly. Galsiah is better scripter then me, and he's knowing what he's talking about.

No, he doesn't.

Btw, to becomes a more or less good scripter in MW, you had to know a LOT about undocumented features, use third-party programs, etc - not just 'whip out your already existing programming skills and get coding!'. I think it might appal a real programmer to script under CS - cause to get anything done, you MUST resort to a hack upon hack. Brain surgery 'per anus'.

Actually, I am a "real" programmer, the script looked pretty straightforward and easy.

"I think it might appal a real programmer to script under CS - cause to get anything done, you MUST resort to a hack upon hack."

Hehehehehehe, that statement is quite amusingly ironic. Not making fun of you this time man, just highlighting it in case any other real programmers frequent these forums. Heh, spend a few years in the software industry, after that this statement will make you snicker. Those who work in game dev even more so. :D

But as others have said, it's gash for actually trying to do anything else in terms of gameplay and scripting.

How odd, because "as others have said", the entire game was built off the tool kit. So anything that could be done in the game is perfectly possible via the CS. Which my own experience supports, the scripts were simple and flexible. Perhaps you tried to make an RTS out of it? Yes well, that won't happen. But if you tried to do what they did with Shivering Isles, make another island with your own NPCs, quests, dialogs, scripted sequences and elements, totally do-able. If I remember correctly the vampirism is all handled by scripts, so implementing similar mechanics, like MoTBs spirit hunger, also pretty simple. For making your own RPG content, it is a fantastic tool.

 

[Mayday]

Yeah... anyone got a working download for it? I'm pretty interesting in giving it a shot, for some reason.

Sorry, I don't have it.

 

[bezimek]

Yeah... anyone got a working download for it? I'm pretty interesting in giving it a shot, for some reason.

Sorry, I don't have it.

Interesting :twisted:

 

[galsiah]

Good lord NN you really are an idiot at times.

They used it to create the game themselves (and it's lacking functionality really shows that they didn't have something complex in mind).

Thats the best type of modding tool...

This demonstrates your perspective pretty well. You'd like powerful, efficient tools to create game content for a game broadly similar to TES. In this respect TESCS is pretty good (for a commercial company with Bethesda's budget) - naturally it'd be more than pretty good from your point of view.
You also have the freedom to hard-code anything that becomes too cumbersome in any prospective Scars tool, so you're again not coming at it from a modder's perspective.

and shows that their intention was, designed in from the most basic level of the system, to allow modders to add in content

No - they've stated publicly and repeatedly when questioned by modders on TESCS features that TESCS is designed entirely for their own designers. If their designers need it, and it's practical, it's in, if they don't, it isn't. All the content creation versatility and user-friendliness is there to make game content simple to produce for their designers. The modularity is there to allow many designers to work independently.

If you think it's designed specifically as a modder-friendly tool, you might explain why GMSTs are not exposed to scripts. This would be a fairly simple change, and would add huge potential for modders.
The reason as explained by MSFD:

Gamesettings aren't included in the game save, that's why you can't permanently modify them via scripts. They're just saved in .esm and .esp files. It's just not something we've found a need to do.

I browsed their scripting language, scripts, dialogue and quest functionality, it's pretty sweet.

So you're clearly better informed than people who've used the tools extensively, or who work at the company that produced them.

This is where you prove that you have no idea what you're talking about. The CS is very user friendly compared to the in-house tools most companies create and never release to public consumption.

So now it's impossible that Bethesda would want to make a tool user friendly when they're investing tens of man years into using it? It's not some small utility that the occasional designer uses from time to time - it's a tool that many designers spend almost their entire time using.
The notion that tool efficiency and user-friendliness couldn't possibly be aimed at increasing designer efficiency (and thus saving money) is simply daft.

Oh no, there are bugs you say!!! Really? Wow. I guess if you were a programmer you'd be aware that there doesn't exist a piece of software that is bug free.

Are you on some pointless hyperbole crusade?
First your statement is quite obviously false - trivial bugless software is relatively common, and complex bugless software is merely very rare (probably controlling space shuttles and the like, rather than computer games).
Second, that almost all software has bugs makes it a constant issue, not a non-issue. "Everything has bugs" is, as you well know, an idiotic defence of buggy software.

Believe this or not, it is far harder to make powerful guis and systems which let your average joe start building quests, dialogue and suchlike simply and logically than it is to expose your scripting language to the world and say "here, go wild". The first is vast amounts of work, the second very little.

True enough - yet it's quite possible to do both (with a versatile scripting language), with the first part acting as a façade over the lower-level systems. If the second really is so easy compared to the first, how is it that Bethesda didn't bother to do it?
Could it be that their designers didn't need a highly versatile scripting language with optional low-level functionality, and that breaking encapsulation merely to please modders wasn't considered a worthwhile tradeoff? You know, I think it could.

though it's more versatile in places, it's stupid to presume that this was accidental

Fixed. Seriously, if you think adding versatility is "accidental" you need your head checked and are obviously not a programmer.

I notice that you removed the smiley from my statement. It was rather inconvenient, what with making it clear that I was half joking.
The principle is the same - they added versatility where their designers needed it; they removed versatility (e.g. getsoundplaying - great for modder event detection) where they didn't care either way. Naturally the versatility they added was by design.

TESCS is built for Bethesda level designers to produce content; modders are an afterthought at best - less than that in design terms.

Again with the cluelessness. You have no idea how fugly tools designed for "Bethesda level designers" can be.

Do you ever pause for a moment to consider that you might be totally wrong in this specific case? Bethesda devs have pointed out that TESCS is designed entirely for their designers frequently. Under those requirements, it's actually a very well designed piece of software. Their explanation makes perfect sense - TESCS has what they've used, and nothing more.
It's only when you start to assume that it was built for modders that the design looks poor.

No-one is suggesting that TESCS is poorly designed as a development tool - it isn't. It'd be poorly designed if a significant requirement were modder support. This clearly isn't the case.

Exactly. Galsiah is better scripter then me, and he's knowing what he's talking about.

No, he doesn't.

Obviously you're better informed than I am on this. Much as I should like to wield generic presumptions with such fluency, I've had to fall back on fact, specific experience with the tool, and developer statements.

...the script looked pretty straightforward and easy.

Again I see my mistake: I imagined I'd learn more by using it for years than by glancing at it and thinking "that looks straightforward and easy".

So anything that could be done in the game is perfectly possible via the CS.

Which everyone concedes. This is a straw man.

For making your own RPG content, it is a fantastic tool.

Which, again, everyone concedes - so long as you don't want to change any fundamental mechanics significantly.

If you want to continue this "discussion" would you please bring some specific facts. Fun though it's been to read through excerpts from Generic Software Development Truisms 101, some knowledge of the specifics might help you in your quest not to talk bollocks.

 

[sheek]

Naked Ninja,

FACT: the TESCS could not replicate the campaign of Fallout 1, never mind Arcanum. It just doesn't have that capability.

It's a good system to mod a few clothes, add shops and some terrain but it can't do anything else. That is the reason why there are no mods for Morrowind worth talking about (worth buying the game for).

NWN1 has a lot of crappy mods but also has some which rival Fallout in complexity (Tortured Hearts).

The Morrowind construction set can't create RPGs because is not a real RPG module creator. It might be a good medieval hiking/LARPing simulation creator but why should we care about that?

 

[galsiah]

It's a good system to mod a few clothes, add shops and some terrain but it can't do anything else.

That's going a bit far. It has pretty good support for adding quests and similar - so long as you're not doing anything too differently. Extending the game is well supported. It's significant changes to the fundamentals that often aren't. (I guess total conversions may well be simpler with other tools, but I'm not sure on that)

"Can't" is also an exaggeration. It doesn't support doing much else, but that doesn't make it impossible. Some mechanical changes happen to be easy, others are possible with a great deal of hackery, still others are impossible.

The difficulty of remaking Fallout or similar doesn't really bother me. One tool that can remake Fallout will do. I'd just prefer that highly versatile alterations to Morrowind/Oblivion's mechanics were supported - since another game's tool can't replace that.

 

[sheek]

Yes I'm exaggerating, but I think the fact that there are no great gameplay mods for Morrowind (adding interesting, multi-segment quests) given the size of the modding community speaks for itself.

If you wanted to create a good, deep CRPG campaign I don't think you would choose the Morrowind CS.

 

[DraQ]

for example, UnrealED (even considering the general bugginess and quirkiness of the latter), which allows doing pretty much everything engine can handle (and some things it can't).

Yes, it allows you to do anything the engine can do, but then a blank C++ file allows you to do anything DirectX can do! Wow! CS has far superior content creation tools for your average user. Believe this or not, it is far harder to make powerful guis and systems which let your average joe start building quests, dialogue and suchlike simply and logically than it is to expose your scripting language to the world and say "here, go wild". The first is vast amounts of work, the second very little.

Except that if you fiddle around with CS a bit, you'll find that most of the basic stuff is hardcoded or otherwise unmodifable, while in UED it's only a question of hacking together a few pieces of code in UnrealC.

A group of skilled modders could very well make an RPG running under UnrealTournament with UED and basic 2D/3D graphics software, whereas a group of equally skilled modders would fail at transforming even basic aspects of TES, using CS, and even with external software like script extenders they might fail.

 

[aries202]

I don't much about the whole legal stuff, but having seen what the conversion did to Morrowind's UI etc. I sort of understand why Bethesda did what they did to Morroviblion.

Basically, Morroviblion not only converted the meshes, the textures etc. to Oblivion style, but also the UI (and probably some other files as well?).

I can't say that I'm surprised that Bethesda did what they did. I just don't agree with their decision or for doing what they did.

As I understand it, you will have to own both Morrowind and Oblivion in order to use Morroblivion at all. So if Bethsoft were smart, they would simply think like this:*aha, we can finally sell some more Morrowind GOTY and some more Oblivion GOTY* but no, they have to say that it is violiation of the EULA. (even if said EULA wouldn't ever hold up in court).

Also, Gstaff's explanation as how they don't allow modding or altering of the .esm or .esp seem a bit vague as I know there are several mods out there that alters the .esm or .esp both for Morrowind and Oblivion as well. (this one for example:
http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index ... pic=807774 )

Also, on the Bethesda forums, there are sometimes requests from modders to make like the armor that Geralts wears or to do a lightsaber or to make content that was in another game like this one:
http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index ... pic=807799

Gstaff clearly said that the wouldn't allow any content in their games from other games or any tinkering with the .esms or .esps - even it were from their own game(s). I don't see how Bethsoft & Gstaff could allow this if they won't strike down on such things as well...

And doesn't the mod Better Bodies make use of the Oblivion .esm as well : (sorry for the icon, but I just felt it in touch with how I feel right now).