Bethesda's Impact on RPGs

[Mogar]

Non combat skills (climbing, etiquette...) + random 3D dungeons + 3D automap + very complete character sheet + nude PC !!!!

That somehow compensates for the defaults.

Man... those random dungeon could be real pain in the ass, especially if you were a noob and forget to bring along some Divine Intervention scrolls.

 

[asper]

Large completely randomized dungeons (never done better in any other 3d game), an extremely large and random (albeit empty) world, a very extended questline, things like climbing walls with the climbing skill, levitation, a spell creating system. All innovative and ambitious things anno 1996.

And plot is not needed for a game to be good.

edit: ogg posted while I was typing this. Yes, the 3d automap also belongs on that list

 

[Kavax]

Daggerfall would be a lot better if they had spent a few more years at it. Seriously, some of the unimplemented features are awesome, like becoming a major political leader and obtaining immortality by working for a witch (PS: T anyone?) sadly, the only way to experience these is by complex buggy Morrowind mods that crash every five minutes.

 

[Jim Cojones]

Non combat skills (climbing, etiquette...) + random 3D dungeons + 3D automap + very complete character sheet + nude PC !!!!

3D map in Daggerfall was a good idea, but graphics in those days wasn't good enough to present it well. Top down was nice, but diagonal view, which theoretically should give more information, was a terrible mess. Still, it's funny thing, that Fo3 has 2D map which shows all level at the same time.

Character creation was so great that I almost had an orgasm when I was playing the game for the first time .

nice one jim cohoens

too bad no one but me understood it :O

It will be our sweet, little secret, my dear.

 

[Talonfire]

Morrowind was actually the best thing Bethesda ever showed, even though as usual it had terrible NPCs and dialogue.

I'd have to agree, Morrowind is probably Bethesda's crowning achievement. It's a little funny if you think about it, Morrowind's game world despite being the most detailed out of all the Elder Scrolls games is so lifeless. Besides yourself the only non-hostile NPCs outside of the towns are random Fed-Ex quest givers who fade from existence once you do their dirty work, and give you a useless "Common Shirt" as a reward.

 

[Tigranes]

Morrowind actually has surprisingly good dialogue in parts. Well, monologues, not dialogues, but still. The stuff Vivec talks about it when you get Wraithguard, for instance. Light years away from Oblivion. Probably because the format meant Beth's loremonkeys could just write a whole lot of lore, rather than try and make it all cinematic.

 

[mondblut]

Bah, Daggerfall has no plot. One stupid movie doesn't make one! [/Andhaira]

You say it like it's something bad.

 

[MetalCraze]

I dare one of you to prove me wrong.

Easily.

Bethesda did everything of the above on the shit level and Bioware was doing that fucking always - and also on a shit level.
If anything the only impact it will have is Bethesda and Bioware releasing more shit games and raping more old licenses.

Holy shit Fallout(!) 3 had dialogue trees(!)! Can you fucking believe it? It's a golden age of RPGs all over again!

 

[Kaiserin]

Cloaked figure copy pasted that rant from an older thread here.

 

[Qwinn]

Did the whole crew at Bethesda change hands between Morrowind and Oblivion? I didn't know that. Explains a -whole- lot.

Qwinn

 

[MetalCraze]

Quite a number of codexers still believe that a Fallout game having dialogues means that it will somehow change the industry and we must give Bethesda that.

I actually don't see how more games with dialogues written by 12 years old that don't do anything besides being a gimmick is a good impact.

Some idiots also believe that it will shot the devs that making something besides fantasy is a good thing. Well everyone is making things besides fantasy now, it's only Bethesda stuck there still.
Second F3 is a fantasy.
You have flaming swords, vampires, paladins fighting orc invasion with greater evil behind it all, magic ghouls healing each other with curative fluids, a talking tree - that's some quality non-fantasy material there.

 

[hicksman]

I dont have an Xbox or a Ps2, but it appears that Beth has brought the non-Japanese RPG to the consoles, no? That certainly broadens the player base, which can be good.

The witcher is coming to consoles, probably because they saw the success of Oblivion and Morrowind.

On the other hand, they've certainly simplified and thus cheapened the idea of what an RPG is. I dont share VD's definition, but its a lot closer to mine than Pete Hines'.

 

[Qwinn]

I haven't played Mass Effect yet, but doesn't that qualify as a "non-japanese RPG on consoles", at least as much as FO3 does?

Just curious.

Qwinn

 

[Melcar]

Torrenting FO3 was more fun than the game itself. In fact, torrenting the game took longer than my enjoyment of FO3.

 

[MetalCraze]

I dont have an Xbox or a Ps2, but it appears that Beth has brought the non-Japanese RPG to the consoles, no?

No. Bioware with KotOR did it earlier.

That certainly broadens the player base, which can be good.

How? For whom? What player base? Only console shooter fans play Beth games. And not because Beth games are RPGs, because Bethesda was never making RPGs.

The witcher is coming to consoles, probably because they saw the success of Oblivion and Morrowind.

No - because TW was designed to be a console game right from the start - just remember how when TW was just released there already were talks from CDP that they are porting it to Xbawks. It has every console stupidity for children - twitchy gameplay, "mature" sex cards, mmorpg quests, gimmick stat system, minigames, poor writing.
I think the reason why CDP didn't release it as multiplatform from the start is that they fucked up themselves with Aurora Engine - consoles couldn't handle it - and they already spent money on it. That's why they are using a newer, more optimized engine for console port now.

 

[Temoid]

Mmorpg quests actually make sense for the Witcher, since he is essentially an exterminator. Whatever writing and setting I saw was miles ahead of fo3, and the twitchiness did not pretend to be turn based. I see nothing wrong here.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

I dont have an Xbox or a Ps2, but it appears that Beth has brought the non-Japanese RPG to the consoles, no? That certainly broadens the player base, which can be good.

Exactly which is why I would say Morrowind is the most influential (at least market wise) RPG of the last 10 years.

 

[poocolator]

Fallout 3 will have a good impact on the industry.

Ok, before you reply, read the entire argument.

First of all, there is no denying these facts:

- Fallout 3 will get very good reviews, and possibly some GOTY awards.
- Fallout 3 will make a lot of money, enough to make a sequel.

Keeping that in mind, also note that:

- Fallout 3 has dialog trees, and skill checks.
- Fallout 3 has Good/Evil alignments.
- Fallout 3 has a low fantasy setting.
- Fallout 3 has more than one ending.

A game with dialogs, choices, no magic, and a unique setting gets good reviews, and makes enough money for a sequel...

Good point. Bethesda gets it's foot in the door, leaving it ajar for companies who'll implement all these things, while doing them better... much better, striving for the same level of profit Bethesda obtained.

 

[MetalCraze]

Bethesda are true innovators.

Just like everyone rushed to do RPGs much better than Bioware who were there earlier than Bethesda - oh yes. And I mean - nobody did dialogues and quests before Fallout 3 - Bethesda truly showed the way.

Mmorpg quests actually make sense for the Witcher, since he is essentially an exterminator.

Sorry - but "go and bring me 10 dicks of wild dogs" is a terrible boredom and it doesn't make sense when every secondary quest is like that.

 

[poocolator]

Bethesda are true innovators.

Just like everyone rushed to do RPGs much better than Bioware who were there earlier than Bethesda - oh yes. And I mean - nobody did dialogues and quests before Fallout 3 - Bethesda truly showed the way.

Bethesda is popular. Fallout 3 is popular. Fallout 3 has dialogue. Dialogue becomes popular.

Doesn't matter if dialogue in games had existed before. BETHESDA IS SO POPULAR IT TRUMPS ALL ELSE.

 

[MetalCraze]

Bethesda is popular. Fallout 3 is popular. Fallout 3 has dialogue. Dialogue becomes popular.

Doesn't matter if dialogue in games had existed before. BETHESDA IS SO POPULAR IT TRUMPS ALL ELSE.

That's the most flawed logic I've seen in a long time. People play F3 not because of dialogues but because Bethesda took a game with dialogues and dumbed it down to a shooter with dialogues as a gimmick - and people play it because it is a shooter.
Nobody will magically start doing good RPGs because of this. Bioware was even more popular than Bethesda - and their games always sold millions on consoles - nobody started doing more shit RPGs because Halo still sells more.
Fallout had a legend status, even BG2 had a legend status - nobody started doing better games because of this, quite the contrary.

 

[hicksman]

sly boots, man disappointing.

Kotor came out on xbox in 2003, Morrowind in 2002.

I'd say my statement stands. Also, WTF with Beth was never making RPGs? Someone said it earlier in the thread - dont discount pre-morrowind bethesda. They had some good games.

There was nothing console/shooter about Arena or Daggerfall.

Qwinn: I would say it does, yes.

 

[MetalCraze]

pre-Morrowind Bethesda was a totally different song - and a totally different studio.
Morrowind is not a RPG - it is an action RPG. With action first.
It's a big empty world with dungeons of SoZ size where you just run around killing stuff. Hey you even get new levels by jumping in one place or putting a cup on the Q key on the keyboard.

Also to add to poocolator's comment that truly shows the decline:

Morrowind and Oblivion were very popular too - why nobody tried to copy them? Or make them better?
But hey because of Oblivion "Gothic"4 will now have fast travel and quest compass - I'm sure that those devs totally got the idea right.

 

[poocolator]

That's the most flawed logic I've seen in a long time.

Thanks.

Bioware was even more popular than Bethesda

Bioware was more popular, sure, but then again, game developers strive for profit, and targeting "casual gamers" yields such profit. By doing just that, Bethesda has overtaken Bioware in popularity and sales figures. More companies will start following Bethesda's example, the trend, and stop producing quality games. Bioware itself will succumb to this vile force of change.

Fallout had a legend status, even BG2 had a legend status - nobody started doing better games because of this, quite the contrary.

Fallout and BG2 had legend status with whoever had played them. Fallout for one, did not do well by the "casual gamer." Show me evidence of mind-boggling sales across the board for said games, and you'll have me convinced of your arguments. The "casual gamers" find the legend status of Fallout and BG2 quaint nuances, and don't take them (or people who play such games) seriously.

 

[Qwinn]

There's also the fact that Fallout was never (as far as I know) released on consoles, and the version of the BG series that came out on console was completely different than the game that came out on the PC.

Ask non-RPG geeks if they remember the Baldur's Gate series, and half of 'em will say they vaguely remember it, and if you question 'em, almost all of 'em will describe Dark Alliance, not BG2.

I never played Dark Alliance, but from what I have read, it was no RPG.

Qwinn