Game News Big Huge RPG is Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning

[ironyuri]

Salvatore's a professional writer who is producing work for a niche market. He is author as culture industry producer, that's about all there is to it. While what he produces is of little literary value that doesn't mean that it is valueless.

At least Salvatore attempts to foreground issues of race and gender in a genre which is generally a bastion of regressive social attitudes (take for example Robert E. Howard and the Conan series).

He's also working with pre-written canon background material and has to cater to the audience for that. He probably recognises his own lack of creative talent vis a vis production of absolutely original work and settles for working creatively within the limits of the WotC canon. The Cleric Quintet was a series of short novels which I thought were quite well done both plot and writing wise.

A hack would be more along the lines of Dean Koontz or Stephen King who fail to recognise their lack of creative talent but attempt to produce "original" material regardless of that lack.

tl;dr

massive butthurt detected.

(Also, I'd say we could rank Salvatore's story-telling abilities up there with MCA and significantly higher than those of David Gaider so we should perhaps be thankful that Big Huge Games is using an actual tried and true published author with years of fantasy experience in developing the setting for their game rather than say... Todd Howard, perhaps?)

 

[Darth Roxor]

A hack would be more along the lines of Dean Koontz or Stephen King who fail to recognise their lack of creative talent but attempt to produce "original" material regardless of that lack.

Ok boy, now you got me butthurt. You better stop posting.

 

[Panthera]

Seriously, where the fuck did all these parrots come from.

 

[laclongquan]

My own private cage. natural surrounding, top class feed. And free parroting outside once in a while.

 

[ironyuri]

A hack would be more along the lines of Dean Koontz or Stephen King who fail to recognise their lack of creative talent but attempt to produce "original" material regardless of that lack.

Ok boy, now you got me butthurt. You better stop posting.

The butthurt must spread, killing the unworthy until the Codex is cleansed of all remnants of

 

[Lesifoere]

At least Salvatore attempts to foreground issues of race and gender in a genre which is generally a bastion of regressive social attitudes (take for example Robert E. Howard and the Conan series).

You're really easily impressed. Say hello to Ursula le Guin and Octavia Butler, to name just a few, who actually deal with "big issues" in sf/f like grown-up people, not like a highschool student. Tiptree Jr. Award winners, anyone? Salvatore's attempts are as juvenile as... everything else in his books and there's a reason nobody seriously discussing race/gender in sf/f will ever bring him up except as an example of failure, maybe. Out of all the things to praise, you picked this. You could've said "at least he makes a lot of money neener neener" and it'd still have made a better point.

Your definition of a hack is curious. Self-awareness doesn't preclude being a hack. I'm hard-pressed to think of a fantasy writer that's more of a hack than Salvatore. David Eddings, maybe? Nah. At least he didn't write D&D-based novels. Even Ed Greenwood can at least be credited with creating the FR setting, clusterfuck of mediocrity and shitstains that it is.

massive butthurt detected.

Mmm. All I did was making brief, sneering comments about Salvatore, which is apparently enough to provoke you into a lengthy, rhapsodic defense of his virtue, so...

(Also, I'd say we could rank Salvatore's story-telling abilities up there with MCA and significantly higher than those of David Gaider

Ahaha.

Salvatore and Gaider are right on the same level.

 

[Volourn]

"A hack would be more along the lines of Dean Koontz or STEPHEN KING who fail to recognise their lack of creative talent but attempt to produce "original" material regardless of that lack. "










WTF Stephen King is the fuckin'; best writer ever. Anyone who thinks he's a hack is a fuckin' piece of fuckin' shit. Fuck you. Fuck you to death.





P.S. yes, I'm butthurt but still fuck you.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Goddammit, I need to revisit Earthsea. I read the first book when I was a kid and I barely remember anything from it, and I have pretty much the whole saga at home.

 

[circ]

I thought Big Huge had died or something. I remember they were in talks with some fantasy author about some game, but it wasn't RA Hack, but an actual author, but that went nowhere after several years. Well, Reynold's team have in the past had atleast some grasp of gameplay, so hope something comes of it.

 

[Angthoron]

fantasy author R.A. Salvatore

set in a rich universe imagined by one of the top fantasy genre authors in the world

Haha, you know they are lying when you have Salvatore's name mentioned in the same sentence with "a rich universe".

Also, holy shit, is Fantasy genre in that bad a condition that Salvatore is considered to be one of the top authors of the genre? Man oh man.

The only creative setting he made was Face of the Waters except I'm sorry but it was actually Robert Silverberg. Which then leaves Salvatore at 0 creative settings, 0 rich settings and 0 settings I would want to ever fucking follow.

Can someone explain to me how exactly it is that this dude that uses literary slaves (at best, at worst he actually writes that crap himself) is one of the top writers? And while at it, why are King and Myers?

 

[ironyuri]

snipsnip

Lesifoere you quoted my last post but you didn't seem to read it. I said Salvatore attempts to foreground those issues. Attempts, not achieves. He's working in a fairly stolid and stagnant setting with material which isn't the best.

Also the butthurt comments were an invocation of trolling. There's a good reason I haven't picked up an R.A. Salvatore in several years. Le Guin is also writing at an entirely different level from Salvatore so drawing the comparison is difficult. I guess I'll concede and call him a hack, but at least he's a hack who knows and that he's not producing and not pretending that he is producing Kafka or Beckett.

edit- I'll probably grab the Dark Elf trilogy next time I feel a particularly spectacular bowel movement coming on now, for old time's sake.

 

[Gosling]

I'm hard-pressed to think of a fantasy writer that's more of a hack than Salvatore.

Weis&Hickman? Not exactly worse, but kinda on the same level.



ironyuri, are you trolling?

 

[Elwro]

@Angthoron: Salvatore is "considered to be one of the top writers", even of the fantasy genre? Whose opinion are you quoting?

 

[Darth Roxor]

I'm hard-pressed to think of a fantasy writer that's more of a hack than Salvatore.

I raise you Philip Athans.

 

[ironyuri]

P.S. yes, I'm butthurt but still fuck you.

I thought our dwarf love could bloom (and hdr) but it was never meant to be.

 

[Angthoron]

@Angthoron: Salvatore is "considered to be one of the top writers", even of the fantasy genre? Whose opinion are you quoting?

I was quoting the article.

 

[Elwro]

@DR: Robert King? His Blood War books are even worse than Salvatore's output. Well, I only brought myself to finishing the first one, but I highly doubt that the rest are better.

@Angthoron: Uh, OK. Well, back in secondary school I knew some folks who actually collected all Forgotten Realms-related novels they could find. I guess, if the devs are aiming at such a market, Salvatore's name may do them some good.

 

[circ]

You're really easily impressed. Say hello to Ursula le Guin and Octavia Butler, to name just a few, who actually deal with "big issues" in sf/f like grown-up people, not like a highschool student.

I don't know Butler, but Ursula K.LG was a disappointment when I picked up the Earthsea books years ago. I had read her biography years earlier and thought I'd be in for something similar to Frank L. Herbert, but all the place names were unimaginative, and although the setting was rich and detailed, the prose read not much different from Salvatore. (EDIT: sans the continuous repetitive prose. I get it RA, he's very very very very fucking evil, you don't have to repeat it every fucking chapter.)

 

[Lesifoere]

Goddammit, I need to revisit Earthsea. I read the first book when I was a kid and I barely remember anything from it, and I have pretty much the whole saga at home.

I haven't read Earthsea. I tried to, couldn't be arsed. On the other hand, some of her SF is pretty great. Pick up The Birthday of the World if you're inclined--it's a short story collection so doesn't require a huge commitment. Goes for you too, circ. Earthsea is an overrated pile of meh and detracts from her better works.

Octavia Butler's Lilith's Brood is very good, at least the first part is. Second and third bits decline some, but oh well, they decline with a bit more grace than Frank Herbert.

Lesifoere you quoted my last post but you didn't seem to read it. I said Salvatore attempts to foreground those issues. Attempts, not achieves. He's working in a fairly stolid and stagnant setting with material which isn't the best.

You were talking about the genre, not the D&D/FR setting. I had to point out therefore that the genre as a whole hardly lacks authors who do these things and do them well. For that matter, it's not like you can blame the setting for Salvatore's concentrated suck. Take a look at his original fantasy, Demon Wars or whatever it is. I read the blurb and the plot appears to be roughly Eragon (peasant boy village razed to the ground goes out on a quest to save the world) but with dumber names--oh JESUS wikipedia gave me this:

The first book in the trilogy introduces the reader to Elbryan Wyndon and Jilseponie Ault, two young friends whose lives are irrevocably changed by the destruction of their village of Dundalis, and Avelyn Desbris, a pious young man who enters the monastery of St.-Mere-Abelle in order to study and to serve God. Divided by the catastrophe, Elbryan and Pony (Jilseponie's nickname) struggle to sort out their lives. Elbryan is taken in by the Touel'alfar, the winged elves of Corona. Jilseponie makes her way to the city of Palmaris where she is raised by the Chilichunks, a husband and wife who own a tavern in the city. Meanwhile, Avelyn comes to terms with the all-too-human brothers of the Abellican Church and the myriad injustices he witnesses them cause.

Years will pass before the trio will meet. During their time apart Elbryan will be trained by the Touel'alfar as a ranger and takes on the name Nightbird. Meanwhile, Pony will become a barmaid at the Chilichunk's tavern, Fellowship Way and eventually enters into the military after marrying the nobleman Conner Bildeborough and then rejecting him on their wedding night; the marriage is immediately annulled. Avelyn, a promising young monk at St. Mere-Abelle begins learning the use of the powerful gemstone magic, but eventually leaves the Church after finding it to not be the holy place he had hoped for and after receiving a vision of the awakened demon dactyl. It will be up to these three, along with a group of friends and allies, to save the world from the Demon Dactyl, Bestesbulzibar, and his dark force of goblins, powries and Fomorian giants.

In order to accomplish this feat Elbryan and his friends take the people of the Timberlands, whose homes have been destroyed by the demon's army, and forge them into a guerrilla fighting force. With them, Elbryan Wyndon and his friends strike quickly at the edges of the enemy, doing all in their power to weaken them. However, it quickly becomes apparent that the only way to truly stop the encroaching darkness is to defeat the dactyl itself. Intent on this quest, the three friends, accompanied by the elves Belli'mar Juraviel and Tuntun and others, journey to the Barbican and Mount Aida to face their enemy. In the end the demon is defeated by Avelyn Desbris and his amethyst gemstone. Though they are victorious, victory comes at a high price. The monk Avelyn gives his life to end the demon dactyl's influence.

Jesus.

I'm hard-pressed to think of a fantasy writer that's more of a hack than Salvatore.

I raise you Philip Athans.

Amazingly I've never read anything of his. I'll count myself lucky.

Re: Weis and Hickman--I guess they're right there with Ed Greenwood et al. I wonder how many settings they've shat out by now, each just as trite as the last, though the Deathgate stuff was less dire than Dragonlance.

 

[Angthoron]

WTF Stephen King is the fuckin'; best writer ever. Anyone who thinks he's a hack is a fuckin' piece of fuckin' shit. Fuck you. Fuck you to death.

Oh, come on, Volourn. I'll admit, his short stories are great, they're brief, creepy and to the point. Unfortunately, to make a living, he has to sell a ten-page story inflated into a seven-hundred-freaking-page novel. I tried reading that.

Mind you, I don't suffer from ADHD and I easily managed to read the entire Bleak House by Charles Dickens in about a week or two. What's more, I actually enjoyed it. However, here's how I was reading one of King's more iconic books, It.

Step 1: Start reading. Hm, interesting premise.
Step 2: Oh, time jump. So much for the interesting part. Oh fun, abusing husband, sex, violence, daily routines. K. Characters I don't care about die. K.
Step 3: Yawn. Skip.
Step 4: 50 pages later. Holy shit, still this. Skip.
Step 5: 100 pages later. Oh for fuck's sake. Fine, I'll try to get into this boring character's boring mind. K.
Step 6: FUCK. Skip!
Step 7: Skip skip skip.
Step 8: Woah woah things happening. Read read read skip skip FUCK!
Step 9: Child groupsex! Yay! If a normal person would bring it up they'd be locked up and chemically castrated but it's Mr. King so it's okay! Yay paedophelia!
Step 10: What did I just read.

Seriously, I just couldn't bloody read it. All the tedious parts, did I need to know them? I felt much more sympathetic to the characters in short stories because they were condensed and concise, not blubbering for over a hundred pages with their inane little routines I couldn't give a damn about.


The story of the telekinetic girl that goes insane was a degree better but still too long. However, in that case it at least contributed to the plot development, which at least made it to not completely and totally suck.

Short stories though, oh yeah. That's where it's at.

So speaking seriously, Volourn, what do you actually think about it? Would King's novels not be better, like, MUCH better if he wouldn't bloat them to humongous sizes?

 

[Angthoron]

Goddammit, I need to revisit Earthsea. I read the first book when I was a kid and I barely remember anything from it, and I have pretty much the whole saga at home.

I haven't read Earthsea. I tried to, couldn't be arsed. On the other hand, some of her SF is pretty great. Pick up The Birthday of the World if you're inclined--it's a short story collection so doesn't require a huge commitment. Goes for you too, circ. Earthsea is an overrated pile of meh and detracts from her better works.

Left Hand of Darkness is what I would really consider a "rich setting", and something that would redeem everything else that Le Guin could ever write even if it was all utter Eragonesque trash. That book alone is enough to redeem that. Salvatore doesn't have such a book.

Another pet peeve of mine is David Eddings. Whoa, now there was something beyond incredible. Every book follows the same formula, recycles the same characters, same ideas, and the writing style is nowhere even close to make that drivel redeemable.


@Elwro

Yeah, I knew such people as well. Hell, I was a bit of a Fantasy buff in my earlier years too, luckily encountering decent enough works most of the time, but then I encountered Salvatore and his Dark Elf thingy. This was years ago and I was nowhere the embittered sod I am today, but damn, I couldn't bring myself to finish it and it was just a pathetic pocketbook.

 

[Lesifoere]

Fun fact: King was going to bin his manuscript for Carrie, the one with the telekinetic girl who went insane, but his wife rescued it from the trash and sent it out. Or something like that.

Also, I didn't much care for The Left Hand of Darkness, but that's neither here nor there--there's a reason I recommended Birthday over it. Anyway, if you're interested in getting back into fantasy books that don't suck, I've got a handy little list of authors to try: China Mieville, KJ Bishop, Jeff VanderMeer, Catherynne M. Valente, Nicole Kornher-Stace. Did you ever give Tanith Lee a whirl? What about Zelazny's Lord of Light?

Another pet peeve of mine is David Eddings. Whoa, now there was something beyond incredible. Every book follows the same formula, recycles the same characters, same ideas, and the writing style is nowhere even close to make that drivel redeemable.

He admitted he was doing it on purpose because he knew people would lap that shit up. Good thing he's dead now.

 

[Elwro]

Hell, I was a bit of a Fantasy buff in my earlier years too, luckily encountering decent enough works most of the time, but then I encountered Salvatore and his Dark Elf thingy. This was years ago and I was nowhere the embittered sod I am today, but damn, I couldn't bring myself to finish it and it was just a pathetic pocketbook.

That's quite similar to my experience, although what I found impossible to finish was already the first book of Salvatore's "Cleric Quintet". And somehow I found Jordan and even some books by Andre Norton and Anne McCaffrey to be palatable back then. Salvatore was really the bottom of the barrel.

 

[Shannow]

Goddammit, I need to revisit Earthsea. I read the first book when I was a kid and I barely remember anything from it, and I have pretty much the whole saga at home.

Watch the anime instead. At least there one can hope tentacle rape was introduced which would at least be one redeeming factor.

Can someone explain to me how exactly it is that this dude that uses literary slaves (at best, at worst he actually writes that crap himself) is one of the top writers? And while at it, why are King and Myers?

Can somebody please explain to me how exactly it is that Oblivion is the best RPG ever?


The difference is fantasy is pretty much on an all time high whith actually good stuff coming out on a regular basis as opposed to RPGs where the last few years provided mediocre stuff at best

 

[Shannow]

I'm hard-pressed to think of a fantasy writer that's more of a hack than Salvatore.

I raise you Philip Athans.

I raise you a Stan Nicholls.