Game News Bioware: Playing a DnD wizard is too complicated

[Volourn]

"That's why people usually used melee chars in NWN"

People keep saying this yet in my experience the ratio of melees vs. spellcasters/archers isn't that wide of a diference. I'd need cold hard facts before swallowing this rumour, myth, and innuendo.

 

[Hajo]

One example is definitiely too little, but I can tell that lately I prefer to play the simple characters. Real life is complicated enough. DnD spellcasting is definitely way too difficult for a game.

 

[Balor]

Well, we are not talking about 'simplistic' gaming - if you think that RL is complex enough - stick to Diablo and Miner. The chat is about AD&D memorization system being simply not fit for CRPGs - since it was designed having P&P in mind. And while fun and interesting (and much better for DMs then any other) in P&P, it sertainly not good enough for CRPGs (like d20 tohit chance, levels, "wrought in iron" classes and all that stuff).
After all, chipping a stone to create a flint axe is also a very intricate, complicated, takes expirience, patience, etc.. but this noble art was (rightfully) lost when bronze age begun.
Let AD&D stay P&P - and, instead of copying game mechanics that never never meant to be played in CRPGs - make something that is both complex, fun, and yet easy to play with instead. "Dumbly" copying AD&D into CRPGs is, well, dumb. See above.

 

[Hajo]

Well, we are not talking about 'simplistic' gaming - if you think that RL is complex enough - stick to Diablo and Miner. The chat is about AD&D memorization system being simply not fit for CRPGs

Yes. I just was thinking Volourn ask for people who actually chose a difference PC classes because of that and wanted to say that he can use me as example.

If a game offers a sensible system for mages, I usually like playing spellcasters.

 

[Warrmann]

And I'd like to remind that when the classes are not "carved in iron" the game becomes absurd after reaching some 4/5th lvl, cause your char is practically the same and it doesn't really matter weather you picked a barbarian or a priest.

Actually only the full implementation of system makes the game unique, otherwise it's just some sort of Chinese copy. The example I'd like to use is Warhammer 40k Dawn of War, It was simplicated so much it didn't differ from C&C or Red Alert a bit, just some RTS. It lost all the charms of the original system. We already have a VERY BAD example by Atari the Demon Stone of how not to make games in FR setting, why continue.
One of the ways how to make it easier for the player to use D&D ruleset is to use it the way it is used in P&P - make battles turn based. Of course, Diablo and the like "RPG" (still can't make myself call Diablo an RPG) fans will be disappointed, but it gives the player time to think of the options and fully use the party.
And another thing, the D&D system is making the games too hard - then why are there so many ultra hard mods for NWN? Why make a game even harder if the D&D system is so hard, that you have to think of changing the game system not improving your gaming skills - where everyone should start in my opinion.

And about the point-based mana system, remember Might&Magic series (till the #$%tiest game of the series the 9th). There was some difference in the begining of which character you chose, but in the end only pure fighters and rogues where the only ones who couldn't cast spells, all others where like mages/priests.

And the last thing - if you don't like D&D system (think it's too hard etc.) - buy a game that is not based on it, but don't whine until the developers change the system dissapointing their fans worldwide. BlackIsle was already ruined because of they didn't make simplicated "RPGs" for consoles, so don't push on it.

 

[Balor]

Well, see my indepth explanations in previous page. There is difficulty (like you have to develop some kind of tactics to vanquish a specific boss, for instance), and there is just problems with interface work required to manage a pool of memorized spells. And, once again, memorization was developed with P&P in mind. Mana (or, one I'd prefer much better, stamina) system is much, much easier to MANAGE, and of cource to play - but that's secondary. Managing spells can be fun - it is fun for some - but all in all, it eventially gets BORING. Not hard, not mentally challending - simply boring. And 'boring', when it comes to games, is the worst diagnosis there is.
Take, say, Wheel of Time channeling (magic) system. One of the best ones, if a bit unbalanced towards spellcasters . And retrofiting it to AD&D memorization system (like what WotC did) - looks so lame that it's not even funny. Two words - "crude hack".
And, anyway, 'fire&forget' sounds good when it comes to seeking missles, not spellcasting systems, but that's IMHO.
P.S. One thing - when 'extra meddling' is required by increased realism. But memorization system is just one of MANY, many systems out there. And does not look as realistic (well, as much as it can be applied to magic systems) as abovementioned Wheel of Time system. Of so, why bother?

 

[Avin]

i assume that most people plays melee characters on NWN because its far funnier in multiplayer. you know, when you are looking for that cool spell the F I G H T E R has already smashed the monster you were desperately trying to hit...

 

[Elwro]

That's what the quickslots are for, and there are many of them (with Shift/Ctrl too iirc).

 

[dunduks]

i assume that most people plays melee characters on NWN because its far funnier in multiplayer. you know, when you are looking for that cool spell the F I G H T E R has already smashed the monster you were desperately trying to hit...

Thats what you get when you convert TB system to realtime without thinking about it - it will get hectic, even with the round system they got, there was no limit to movement and that put anything ranged down the drain.

 

[Volourn]

"there was no limit to movement and that put anything ranged down the drain."

Yes, there is.

 

[Balor]

It's not, actually, TB/RT issue - but ranges issue. In RL, bows used from about 700 meters (eastern composite) to about 300 meters (western long- shortbows). Now show me isometric RPG where your FOV is at least 200 meters. At ranges, where combat occur in most games - using long-range bows and spells is really ineffective. When enemy comes within 30-50 or so meters from you, you should be packing your bow and taking out a melee weapon... and that's how far you can see, usually, in usual isometric games... I mean the screen distance (which, if there is zooming, can be even less). Scrolling does fix this... a little. But not always, and poorly at best.
Anyway, if memorization system to be revamped a bit (it did a bit already in NWN) - it may become playable.
Like, each spell having it's own 'volume' it'll take in your head, and time (in RL seconds) you much spend rememorizing it.
This way, you have much more flexible system - like, instead of 6 magic missiles, 3 acid arrows - you'll be able to memorize 2 extra fireballs or lightings if you want to, or memorize 20 acid arrows (or, heh, knocks or something like that) instead of all fireballs, and you'll be able to relearn spells 'manually', in real time, w/o need of full-scale rest - if you cannot rest in this place (that'll take quite a bit of RL time - but same happens in systems with replenishing mana and/or stamina).
You see? It's much more logical then 'level-based' memorization pool, and much easier to manage. And, as much as I understand, even closer to the lore. But in P&P that'll make DMs to count stuff - which they hate, while computer don't care.
Mail this idea to Bioware .

 

[Elwro]

It's not, actually, TB/RT issue - but ranges issue. In RL, bows used from about 700 meters (eastern composite) to about 300 meters (western long- shortbows). Now show me isometric RPG where your FOV is at least 200 meters.

That's why FPP is the way to go! *hides*

 

[Balor]

Can you please unhide for a second and explain what FPP is?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I assume he meant First Person Perspective

 

[Elwro]

You assumed right. :D