Bioware's no-homosexuality rule in RPGs

[PennyAnte]

Since BioWare doesn't seem to allow me to murder my party members ...

I think it would be good, at least in the name of player flexibility and all issues of homosexuality aside, if players could kill their party members for whatever reason. Maybe that's how the player wants to RP a dark-side force user. There should be a way for the plot to work around the loss of a character. Just my opinion.

 

[PennyAnte]

Bioware devs have explained their reasonings for stuff like this numerous times.

If anyone happens to have or come across a link, I would love to read the explanation in the company's own words. I am not sure I will be convinced, but I'd read the argument with an open mind.

EDIT: Also, if they've acknowledged their audience wants it, and it's not a case of homophobia, then what the heck is the holdup?

 

[Spazmo]

I'm all for options in RPGs, but then again I'm against romances in RPGs, so if you ask me, it's best to leave the sexuality of your character to be irrelevant. And even a gay male should recognise the usefulness of being able to seduce a female NPC for whatever reason and the same gay male should also recognise how ineffective trying to seduce other men would probably be.

 

[Volourn]

"Also, if they've acknowledged their audience wants it, and it's not a case of homophobia, then what the heck is the holdup?"

The hold up is the percentage of their audience that wants it is not signifiacnt to add it and delaing with the crying if they do.

I have no actual link; but if you do a search under BIO devs at thier boards for David Gaider you should have quite a lot to read on the subject.

 

[Greenskin13]

Sam Cooke and I are lonely.

I think that having homsexuals in RPGs is gay

This cracks me up. See, Oregon is the center of wit.

 

[Mendoza]

I, for one, do NOT want anything gay in the games I play. I didn't have a problem with the way it was done in Fable, but any flagrant homosexuality pushed upon me (i.e. Cassius Curio - Morrowind) pisses me off and makes me want to vomit.

The whole Cassius Curio thing was kind of funny, but it made me feel so... naked..

Crassius never bothered me. Partly because I don't have any qualms about stripping in a game, and partly because that was the way the character was written. I don't see how homosexuality was pushed in your face more than any other issue. The character was gay, and if you don't like that then don't deal with him.

There's something wrong going on when people have no qualms killing people in games but suddenly get all disturbed when they have to flash a male character.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I just wish that if someone was going to put romance in an RPG, they would do it decently. I have yet to see romance done well in any game with the exception of those that were scripted and part of the story itself.

As for homosexuality in a game, as long as it's not forced on the character and not the main theme of the game, I could care less. Especially if the game is decent in and of itself. I mean, what if Fallout had gay couples in it? As long as their ideals weren't being pushed on the PC, it wouldn't have lessened my love for the game at all.

 

[EvoG]

Err, you may correct me if I'm wrong, but since when has any video game had overtly gay characters, or even offered a homosexual option romantically, aside from The Sims, Fable and Troika's games? You don't feel its rather biased of you to single out Bioware as the only "offender", and also rather contentious that Bioware has instituted its "discrimination" as a "rule", that "there shall be NO gay's in our games!"?

Its a "rule"?

Aren't there more developers out there against gays in games?

You use words like exclusionary and discrimination. Now maybe I just don't use antagonistic and accusatory words like that myself unless warranted, but you're implying now, as with the "rule", that this is a conscious effort on the part of Bioware, if not Obsidian AND George Lucas, as in this particular instance with KotoR, its his world, Bioware's sequel and Obsidians creation(KotoR2).

So now its Bioware, a conspiracy or more likely, a rather far reaching attempt to say what exactly? Should all games have the option for homosexuality? I have no problem with this fundamentally, but at what point are we taking our ridiculous 'politcal correctness' too far? At what point is it appropriate, inappropriate or "exclusionary"? Who's to decide? You?

Smells a bit of conceit, ego or controversy for the sake of controversy. None of my gay friends seem to object insofar that they don't exclaim that MEDIA seems to be "discriminating" against or "excluding"gays. I see more white shows on TV than any other minority. If the majority of the people in the world were indeed black and gay, I'd expect as such portrayed predominantly in all media.

People as a whole, are culturally driven. Its not to offend those unlike them, but at the same time one could argue its unfair to impose your beliefs on others. But now are we imposing our beliefs when the majority is satisfied but not the minority? Should all developers now make sure they arbitrarily include minorities for the sake of minorities? Does it fit the story? Does it require more work for the development team, and, is it worth it if only 1% of the players are indeed gay AND looking for a gay relationship in the game? Are the hetero relationships mandatory in games or merely an extension of the dialogue that can be persued or not? I will agree with you only that if following a relationship in KotoR WAS mandatory and was ONLY heterosexual, that it could effectively turn off gays playing it.

Its not good or bad, right or wrong, black or white. If its appropriate, gays SHOULD be in games, as much as any other minority. Absolutely. If I had to play a gay character in a game, as long as it was consistent and not trivialized, it could be fun. Why, because it expands out ability to roleplay. Many hetero actors have done tremendous jobs playing gay and memorable characters in movies. But now, when its inconsequential, its merely superficial and empty. When I first learned that the main character in GTA San An was black, I was immediately leery that Rockstar was creating a token character, as with most female lead games. A tough, hard as nails female warrior in a kevlar bikini? When it turned out that GTA San An was about gangbanging in LA in the early 90's, it became entirely relevent and appropriate, and would've been absolutely ridiculous if the character were white.

Perspective is both unique and wonderful and frustrating when its not yours.

Cheers

 

[almondblight]

And even a gay male should recognise the usefulness of being able to seduce a female NPC for whatever reason and the same gay male should also recognise how ineffective trying to seduce other men would probably be.

Well, on the other end, straight guys should see the usefulness in seducing gay men if it so suits there needs. Anyways, it would be interesting to see how people would react to a gay version of Baldurs Gate II...every five feet one of the guys in your party starts hitting on you.

But yeah, people build games to cater to who the target audience wishes they could be. Skinny, white, antisocial white heterosexuals wish they were athletic, white, popular warriors irresistable to women. And as long as games are about living out the wet-dreams of a teenage loser, they're never going to be considered a respectable art form.

Different character types would be interesting, but for the most part the industry is going to stick to archetypes; and for all the hooting and hollering that goes on here, it's still probably what most people want.

On a tangent, it occurred to me today how most games that show a future where mankind has colonized the world everyone is white. Judging by the demographics of the world, a better mix would be 1/8 of the people you meet are white.

 

[PennyAnte]

Err, you may correct me if I'm wrong, but since when has any video game had overtly gay characters, or even offered a homosexual option romantically, aside from The Sims, Fable and Troika's games? You don't feel its rather biased of you to single out Bioware as the only "offender", and also rather contentious that Bioware has instituted its "discrimination" as a "rule", that "there shall be NO gay's in our games!"?

This is, I think, a good question. But it will take a few grafs to properly respond.

First, I've been talking about role-playing games, not every type of game in the entire gaming industry. RPGs have plot and character flexibility as a genre hallmark. The core idea is for players to build the character they want and to experience the plot the way they want. This is particularly true for a Bioware game like KOTOR. It has tons of dialogue and marked moral flexiblity, including as a good/evil system.

I've also only been discussing those RPG games like those above which also have romance plotlines. I never applied my statements to for example, an action RPG like Diablo or some kind of FPS with a background story in which "the guy gets the girl" or vice-versa.

As I've said, I'm all for artistic integrity. I'm not saying every romantic story in gaming (or film, or novels) needs to be a homosexual one. I'd find that pretty ridculous, and I think the wording of your question "when has any video game had overtly gay characters, or even offered a homosexual option romantically," shows you have misunderstood my position.

Now, granted, positions in online forums tend to become clear over the course of several posts. So I can see why you'd jump to a conclusion. But I have by now, as in before this post, made it clear that I'm talking about a specific kind of RPG.

So, when the field is narrowed back down to the one I've been talking about: RPGs with flexible character creation, flexible plots, and romantic storyines, there aren't many companies in play, but Bioware is one.

With all that said, I do need to concede that I haven't played every RPG ever made, including Gothic. So there may be some examples I'm not aware of where there's a romantic plot, but it's exlcusively heterosexual. Many RPGs don't have romantic plots at all. Does Gothic? I don't think any Spiderweb games do. Still, within a very narrow zone of the game industry, there may be companies worth singling out other than Bioware.

I'm I biased? I'm not a lawyer out to "get" Bioware. I still buy their games, I just get annoyed with thier romantic plots. I don't think I'm biased to single them out, but I do admit there may be other companies who have the same lack of flexibility in thier games.

And, that said, I also would label those games, and probably those companies, discriminatory or at least exclusionary. As far as no homosexuality being a rule, well, it clearly is. It is deliberately left out of Bioware games. I think that's a fair statement, although you seem to think the word discriminatory is a little more loaded than I do, given the intensity of your response.

For me it just comes down to this: homosexual romance options are left out of what romance plots there are in the game. That's an exclusion, so it's an exclusionary practice. It discriminates against homosexuals, because they can't roleplay what's natural for them the way a hetersexual could roleplay what's natural for them within the context of the game.

I think this speaks to:

You use words like exclusionary and discrimination. Now maybe I just don't use antagonistic and accusatory words like that myself unless warranted, but you're implying now, as with the "rule", that this is a conscious effort on the part of Bioware, if not Obsidian AND George Lucas ...

I also had a previous post where I talked about homosexuality not being in Star Wars at all and my point not really having anything to do with Star Wars: THE MOVIE. That post made it pretty clear that I was only talking about an RPG in the Star Wars universe. The only link was that both Star Wars and the game had romantic plots.

Should all games have the option for homosexuality?

I never said they should.

but at what point are we taking our ridiculous 'politcal correctness' too far?

When all games have the option for homosexuality.

I never suggested every game needs a "gay switch." I never said every book or film needs a "gay edition." That's a straw man, but I don't think you created it intentionally.

Giving every game a gay option would be akin to my example discussing the inanity of importing various real-world races into a coherent fantasy world that had its own races. I really do support artistic integrity.

At what point is it appropriate, inappropriate or "exclusionary"? Who's to decide? You?

Well, yes. On some level it's me, the customer, who decides.


Let me add that the problem is not that any given homosexual doesn't want to read a story or see a film about a heterosexual or vice versa. The problem is that homosexuals can't be themselves in the role playing games they buy. The other problem is that heterosexuals can't have homosexuality in their roleplaying games if they want it.

Furthermore, even in games with options for homosexuality in romance plots, there always needs to be a heterosexual option too. ALL options need to be there. There are going to be homosexuals who want heterosexuals in their RPGs just like there are some heterosexuals who want homosexuals (especially when they are young heterosexual males dreaming of lesbians.)

Smells a bit of conceit, ego or controversy for the sake of controversy.

Saying it doesn't make it true.

None of my gay friends seem to object ...

Oh please don't say I have [fill in the blank minority] friends. Just don't go there.

You are free to do whatever you like, but that is my solid advice.

its unfair to impose your beliefs on others.

I think the post in which I quoted Jiu's view on in-game homosexuality was the ideal case in point here. I'm just talking about having an in-game option people can use if they want, or not use if they want.

Should all developers now make sure they arbitrarily include minorities for the sake of minorities? Does it fit the story? Does it require more work for the development team, and, is it worth it if only 1% of the players are indeed gay AND looking for a gay relationship in the game?

I have discussed all of these issues before and firmly support artistic integrity.

When I first learned that the main character in GTA San An was black, I was immediately leery that Rockstar was creating a token character, as with most female lead games. A tough, hard as nails female warrior in a kevlar bikini? When it turned out that GTA San An was about gangbanging in LA in the early 90's, it became entirely relevent and appropriate, and would've been absolutely ridiculous if the character were white.

I agree. Another win for artistic integrity. Privately I tell myself, though, that several white people do grow up poor and "in the 'hood," and it's not quite that preposterous to have a white gansta.

EDIT: Hispanics too, and let's not forget girl gangs. And so on. And so forth.

EDIT: Some other edits to fix typos and grammar and such.

 

[PennyAnte]

Anyways, it would be interesting to see how people would react to a gay version of Baldurs Gate II...every five feet one of the guys in your party starts hitting on you.

I think that would get repetitive quickly and be lousy in-game, whether it was a heterosexual or homosexual "romance."

 

[almondblight]

I think that would get repetitive quickly and be lousy in-game, whether it was a heterosexual or homosexual "romance."

Yeah, it got pretty silly, especially when you have 3 girls in your party doing it at the same time. One of the many design flaws that kept me from getting to far in the game.

 

[PennyAnte]

@ almond: Ok, fair enough. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad after all.

 

[EvoG]

One not interested in tit for tat arguments, quoting each and every line, I need to stress you used words and implied that the developers were/are consciously exluding gays and/or other minorities. Big difference between saying "no gays" and simply not putting them in. The conceit comes from you seemingly knowing, factually, that not only is this a rule, mandated by the powers that be, at least at Bioware in this case, but that now they are aggressively persuing a route of insinuated exclusion by pressing heterosexual romances in their games.

I'm not creating gay characters in some of my game designs. Am I discriminating or is it merely that there is no place for the character. I DO have romances between a man and a woman, yet not between a man and a man? Discrimination? Fair enough that you stated its mere(soley) RPG's that are "guilty" of this as they of course allow for that expressive freedom of creating any kind of character you want, including(excluding) homosexuality. Fine. The agreement stands that if you have implied romance as an option in an "RPG", then there should be the same for gays. No argument.

The crux then of this discussion is your omniscience of Bioware's intentions. You statements and words are bold and baseless; conjecture based purely on your perspective; you're projecting. You're seeing this happening very specifically because you want to.

As for my gay friends, you're reply was defensive and cleverly (or not) meant to exclude my comment from any relevancy. I can very well go there as it IS insight and asks moreso "why do YOU care if they don't?". If I merely said "I have gay friends so I'm not a homophobe!", well then it is useless information and soley used to defend from bias, and you'd be compelled to exclaim that I do not go there, or anywhere near there, where ever that may be. Fact is I did and there we are.

My comment about overtly gay characters is far from a misunderstanding, but rather a simple observation that thoughout gaming, defined romantic sexuality has NOT been a focus and if anything, when it was, it HAS been heterosexual, primarily due to(consicously or unconciously) the demographic of both the developers and the customers. So why single out Bioware and not the gaming community as a whole, regardless of genre? On that, you being the customer allows you to yes, decide what is appropriate or inappropriate for your gaming experience (taste), but not arbitrarily accuse conscious exclusionism not evidenced (opinion).

If you wanted to discuss sexuality, fine. Rather your tone has implications that Bioware is responsible for its alledged conscious actions with regards to discrimination. Smiling to a female ( or male ) co-worker is not sexual harrassment. Unconsciously touching a female ( or male ) co-workers arm or shoulder to pass in the hall or a tight space is not sexual harrassment. Discrimination and sexual harrassment can be considered categorically similar, if polar opposites. Excluding homosexual relationships from an RPG is not immediate discrimination. Conscious efforts to exlude someone by color or sexuality or baldness IS discrimination, as much as clutching the fabulous ass cheek on your secretary and promising her a raise if she "raises you", is sexual harrassment.

Can't call foul unless there was a bad play.


Cheers

 

[almondblight]

@ almond: Ok, fair enough. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad after all.

Heh, I convinced you it wasn't so bad by calling it one of the main design flaws?

Actually, if it wasn't for other problems with the game (like the poor combat) I could have brushed it off, but it would have still irked me. Have you played Baldurs Gate II? It's a good representation of how romances shouldn't be handled, and why RPG's should get their shit straight before attempting to get a player in one. Now, Avernum did a gay relationship pretty well...there are a couple of women that were thrown down there for being lesbians, though they don't talk about it directly. Just hint here an there, and otherwise they're normal characters – which is how I think homosexuality should be portrayed.

 

[jiujitsu]

Crassius never bothered me. Partly because I don't have any qualms about stripping in a game, and partly because that was the way the character was written. I don't see how homosexuality was pushed in your face more than any other issue. The character was gay, and if you don't like that then don't deal with him.

There's something wrong going on when people have no qualms killing people in games but suddenly get all disturbed when they have to flash a male character.

I'm numb to killing as are most people these days. I am not, however, numb to sexual harrassment and I don't want to be aquainted with it in the outside world OR in the fantasy world. You have to strip or you can't join house Hlaalu. I found it kind of funny, but if I was given a choice at all I would have run on foot to Dagon Fel from Vivec instead.

 

[Immortal_Wombat]

I mean, what if Fallout had gay couples in it?

You could bum that guy in mom's bar in Fallout 2....not sure if that constitutes being a 'couple' though

 

[jiujitsu]

Haha! I just noticed the quote in your sig. The spider lady was one mean biotch!

 

[Human Shield]

So every party member should be bi-sexual to give equal options to everyone?

You should have the freedom ingame to hit on some guy in a bar but 99.9% chance you are going to get rejected.

Would gay characters make sense in a fantasy world? Would it have more or less percent population then today?

If it doesn't make sense in the setting then I don't think you have any arguement. You can't expect a world to stand with any believibility if everyone demanded their options in. I want guns in a fantasy world, doesn't make sense that they were create. I want gay romances, doesn't make sense that it would be treated the same way as it is today.

 

[MarFish]

If I remember correctly, some writer from Bioware dropped hints about having same sex relationships in Jade Empireon their boards a few weeks ago.

Anyway, how about taking the top 20 RPGs from gamerankings.com and judge all the companies / the industry based on them.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

You could bum that guy in mom's bar in Fallout 2....not sure if that constitutes being a 'couple' though

Yes, but you didn't HAVE to. And, besides, what I meant was gay couples all over. Like you walk into a house in San Francisco and there's two guys having a love spat, or you encounter something similar in the streets of New Reno. Stuff like that wouldn't bother me, and if done well enough could be quite hilarious and entertaining. The moment you have to get down and dirty with one of those people in order to further a quest, or even the main plot of the game, that's when I would definitely raise a stink.

Now, perhaps maybe there's a gay NPC somewhere that you're same sex character could woo and all that, but it would have to be totally optional and up to each individual player. Even that, I wouldn't have a problem with.

Just don't throw it in my face and tell me I -have- to go along with it.

Bad marketing idea there, bucko.

 

[chaedwards]

Interesting discussion thread this. In my opinion, the answer is 'yes' - in an ideal rpg there should be an option to play a homosexual character. Of course, in an ideal rpg, you should be able to play any sort of character you like - including a homophobe, a racist, a misogynist or any other sort of unpleasant character type as well. You should be able to kill your followers, follow any sort of relationship or none at all (by telling Jaheira to *fuck off*), and behave in any damn way you like.

However, the game world should also react in a believable way to the players actions. In a fantasy setting based on medieval Europe, it's unlikely that a character could be openly gay without getting into big trouble with the authorities, and even a relationship with another party member would have to be very furtive... what if another party member found out, and found it so perverse that they reported it to the local authorities? Alternatively, if you set an RPG in ancient Greece, attitudes to homosexual relationships would be far more relaxed.

And Star Wars? Fuck knows honestly, but I suspect that some would tolerate it and others wouldn't, and that more people would make it their business than if you were having a heterosexual relationship.

 

[DemonKing]

When you read a book or see a Hollywood film, and none of the characters are gay, do you get offended? Yes games are a little more interactive but you are still immersing yourself in someone else's "artisitic vision" and accepting the limitations/boundaries of that vision by doing so.

Besides, you don't have the right/ability to fondle Hutts in KOTOR - if the designers are supposed to cater to the gay audience then what about the Hutt fanciers? I mean surely they're a minority but there must be one or two out there...

 

[Shinan]

Actually in most games you can play a gay character. Just say no to all those approaches. Then the fact that none of the other characters are gay makes it hard for the main character to find anyone. Voila! gay storyline. Even though it is more or less without the romantic bit.

Playing a character isn't that hard even in the games that doesn't "allow" that kind of character. I can play a gay guy in Bloodlines all I want, ignoring all the seducing the women do and try to become friendly with all the guys. By the end of the game I played a gay character in Bloodlines. Sure there wasn't any romance in either way. Nor did I manage to score any of the other guys but I was still gay.

 

[Mendoza]

Actually in most games you can play a gay character. Just say no to all those approaches. Then the fact that none of the other characters are gay makes it hard for the main character to find anyone. Voila! gay storyline. Even though it is more or less without the romantic bit.

Playing a character isn't that hard even in the games that doesn't "allow" that kind of character. I can play a gay guy in Bloodlines all I want, ignoring all the seducing the women do and try to become friendly with all the guys. By the end of the game I played a gay character in Bloodlines. Sure there wasn't any romance in either way. Nor did I manage to score any of the other guys but I was still gay.

Actually, a guy can score with Phil in the hospital or the posh guy next to Mercurio's building, it just requires a higher seduction skill than a female character would need.

It doesn't really count as a gay option since, your (or at least my) character was only interested in them as a blood source, but there are at least gay or bisexual characters in the game. There's also homophobic characters, since the guy at the beachhouse entrance will be disgusted if you try to seduce him as a man (although it still works as a way to get in).