Camelot Unchained - Mounting DAoC's corpse or legitimate project?

[Exar Kun]

Please stop calling this an MMO"RPG" there is nothing RPG about this, it's offensive to all the people who think of story, character development etc to call this an RPG.
Arthurians, Vikings and Tuatha (Sidhe) fighting each other, I mean seriously couldn't they come up with something a little more original or better? Yes there were Viking raids in the 1100 as well as there are some who say that this is also the time of the Round Table, the Sihde were written about in the 12th century and are an Irish folk legend getting fllimsy here but ok 12th century and Great Britain. But still the setting of this game is paper thin since they honestly have very little to do with one another but adding a "magical" race is interesting...
Aside from that there is no story in this game, it's 3 faction slug fest and that's all and you could have taken whatever you want and still had the same type of game and result.

Also this game is sporting a subscription model which doesn't even offer it's founding backers a lifetime subscription plan and then goes so far as to insult them with adding things into the higher tier pledge amount like 2-10% discount on the monthly subscription. I mean geez you spend 3k on a game and they give you 7% discount on a probably 10$ monthly subscription? Yes that's about 70cent 0.70$ per month.

If you like PVP/RvR then this may be for you because that's all there is. Oh sorry I forgot the crafting class, yes right you get to be a crafter who probably grinds killing cows for leather, digs ore for stones and then makes stuff for PVP and supports on the battle field in some form or another by building structures while everyone has fun around you.
Aside from that if you like PvP then this is probably an interesting game for you, and it will probably do that aspect very very well, they better do since it's the only thing they have got.

In conclusion:
If you like RPG's then this isn't a game for you point period paragraph, go look at Torment, Project Eternity, Divnity Original Sin etc for your fix.
if you like PvP/RvR and are willing to spend the $ on a monthly basis or back this for insane amounts then this may be for you.

Just because its not story based and doesn't have a particularly compelling setting doesn't not make it an RPG. Fact of the matter is you are playing a dude with a sword, your fighting for keeps in Camelot its a frickin RPG.

 

[Jaesun]

 

[Garod]

Please stop calling this an MMO"RPG" there is nothing RPG about this, it's offensive to all the people who think of story, character development etc to call this an RPG.
Arthurians, Vikings and Tuatha (Sidhe) fighting each other, I mean seriously couldn't they come up with something a little more original or better? Yes there were Viking raids in the 1100 as well as there are some who say that this is also the time of the Round Table, the Sihde were written about in the 12th century and are an Irish folk legend getting fllimsy here but ok 12th century and Great Britain. But still the setting of this game is paper thin since they honestly have very little to do with one another but adding a "magical" race is interesting...
Aside from that there is no story in this game, it's 3 faction slug fest and that's all and you could have taken whatever you want and still had the same type of game and result.

Also this game is sporting a subscription model which doesn't even offer it's founding backers a lifetime subscription plan and then goes so far as to insult them with adding things into the higher tier pledge amount like 2-10% discount on the monthly subscription. I mean geez you spend 3k on a game and they give you 7% discount on a probably 10$ monthly subscription? Yes that's about 70cent 0.70$ per month.

If you like PVP/RvR then this may be for you because that's all there is. Oh sorry I forgot the crafting class, yes right you get to be a crafter who probably grinds killing cows for leather, digs ore for stones and then makes stuff for PVP and supports on the battle field in some form or another by building structures while everyone has fun around you.
Aside from that if you like PvP then this is probably an interesting game for you, and it will probably do that aspect very very well, they better do since it's the only thing they have got.

In conclusion:
If you like RPG's then this isn't a game for you point period paragraph, go look at Torment, Project Eternity, Divnity Original Sin etc for your fix.
if you like PvP/RvR and are willing to spend the $ on a monthly basis or back this for insane amounts then this may be for you.

Just because its not story based and doesn't have a particularly compelling setting doesn't not make it an RPG. Fact of the matter is you are playing a dude with a sword, your fighting for keeps in Camelot its a frickin RPG.

I'm sorry but the fact that someone is swinging a sword doesn't qualify it a an RPG, and fiction does not = RPG.
Role Playing Games means playing a Role within a set story ( i.e. table tops where it came from) under your definition any FPS with a sword/knife in it would be considered an RPG. It's not.
You will have "Role Players" in Camelot Unchained who will act out playing a Sidhe or Viking or Arthurian but the game isn't designed in itself to hold a story where you play a character. In the same way just because I play a role in Call of Duty doesn't make call of duty an RPG.
Unchained Camelot has more in common with Call of Duty than with a real RPG there for I'm sticking to my point that it's NOT and RPG.

 

[Exar Kun]

Please stop calling this an MMO"RPG" there is nothing RPG about this, it's offensive to all the people who think of story, character development etc to call this an RPG.
Arthurians, Vikings and Tuatha (Sidhe) fighting each other, I mean seriously couldn't they come up with something a little more original or better? Yes there were Viking raids in the 1100 as well as there are some who say that this is also the time of the Round Table, the Sihde were written about in the 12th century and are an Irish folk legend getting fllimsy here but ok 12th century and Great Britain. But still the setting of this game is paper thin since they honestly have very little to do with one another but adding a "magical" race is interesting...
Aside from that there is no story in this game, it's 3 faction slug fest and that's all and you could have taken whatever you want and still had the same type of game and result.

Also this game is sporting a subscription model which doesn't even offer it's founding backers a lifetime subscription plan and then goes so far as to insult them with adding things into the higher tier pledge amount like 2-10% discount on the monthly subscription. I mean geez you spend 3k on a game and they give you 7% discount on a probably 10$ monthly subscription? Yes that's about 70cent 0.70$ per month.

If you like PVP/RvR then this may be for you because that's all there is. Oh sorry I forgot the crafting class, yes right you get to be a crafter who probably grinds killing cows for leather, digs ore for stones and then makes stuff for PVP and supports on the battle field in some form or another by building structures while everyone has fun around you.
Aside from that if you like PvP then this is probably an interesting game for you, and it will probably do that aspect very very well, they better do since it's the only thing they have got.

In conclusion:
If you like RPG's then this isn't a game for you point period paragraph, go look at Torment, Project Eternity, Divnity Original Sin etc for your fix.
if you like PvP/RvR and are willing to spend the $ on a monthly basis or back this for insane amounts then this may be for you.

Just because its not story based and doesn't have a particularly compelling setting doesn't not make it an RPG. Fact of the matter is you are playing a dude with a sword, your fighting for keeps in Camelot its a frickin RPG.

I'm sorry but the fact that someone is swinging a sword doesn't qualify it a an RPG, and fiction does not = RPG.
Role Playing Games means playing a Role within a set story ( i.e. table tops where it came from) under your definition any FPS with a sword/knife in it would be considered an RPG. It's not.
You will have "Role Players" in Camelot Unchained who will act out playing a Sidhe or Viking or Arthurian but the game isn't designed in itself to hold a story where you play a character. In the same way just because I play a role in Call of Duty doesn't make call of duty an RPG.
Unchained Camelot has more in common with Call of Duty than with a real RPG there for I'm sticking to my point that it's NOT and RPG.

True, never thought about it that way!

 

[Mangoose]

Aside from that there is no story in this game, it's 3 faction slug fest and that's all and you could have taken whatever you want and still had the same type of game and result.

Except that it's a reboot of Dark Age of Camelot, an existing, well-loved game - and the best game of its type. Why the fuck would they change the setting?

Also, if you think there will ever be an MMORPG with a story that has any bit of RPG element, you've got to be blind. There's never been, and probably never will be, any little eensy weensy bit of choice or skill checks in any MMORPG. The most "RPG" an MMO will ever get, actually, is when there is as little story as possible, and as little hand-holding as possible, so you have a open sandbox game (like UO or Eve Online, not Camelot) where it's the interaction between the players that generate the story.

 

[Snerf]

Fuck my better judgment. I loved and played daoc hardcore for years. Even if this turns out to be vaporware, I'll treat my money spent like a 40 poured out in the drain.

He's done some dumb shit before, but MJ is saying all the right things and not bowing to pve pressure.

 

[Garod]

Aside from that there is no story in this game, it's 3 faction slug fest and that's all and you could have taken whatever you want and still had the same type of game and result.

Except that it's a reboot of Dark Age of Camelot, an existing, well-loved game - and the best game of its type. Why the fuck would they change the setting?

Also, if you think there will ever be an MMORPG with a story that has any bit of RPG element, you've got to be blind. There's never been, and probably never will be, any little eensy weensy bit of choice or skill checks in any MMORPG. The most "RPG" an MMO will ever get, actually, is when there is as little story as possible, and as little hand-holding as possible, so you have a open sandbox game (like UO or Eve Online, not Camelot) where it's the interaction between the players that generate the story.

I disagree with you on two things DAoC was definately not the best MMO ever made, I'm sorry but that has to go to UO the father of MMO's.
And yes there are MMORPG's with story please take the belowinto consideration.
1) Before EA raped UO, UO was very RP focused, there were "Seers" or "GM's" on every shard who drove the story and premise of the game forward together with the Role Playing Communities. This was a main focus and thousands of people always came to these events to participate.
2) Another example of a well done RPG was LOTRO which was very focused on following the the Lord of the Rings story from basically the Shire to at the moment Rohan, the main quests are very story driven and provide the red thread throughout the game as you follow the party. That's a very integral part of LOTRO
3) Also the new Secret World is extremely story based where are you are trying to figure out what's going on in the world and fighting "Lovecraft'esct" monsters.

I think you just hit the nail on the head though in what Camelot is, it's more of a "Sandbox" than an MMORPG.

One final question to you though, what exactly is it you loved about Dark Age of Camelot? What I'm getting at was what in the game was so great? was it the people you played with, some of the game mechanics? what exactly made that experience special to you?

 

[Cyberarmy]

I think Magoose was taliking about RvR and PvP mainly when he menitoned "best game of its type". Not the "best MMORPG ever".
Noone can get near DAoC in terms of RvR, not even WaR. Them lake battles, stooping zergs with 8 people, those were epic and what most of the players expect these kind of battles from Camelot Unleashed.

 

[Garod]

I guess you are making my point, the thing you also seem to like RvR/PvP isn't really the RPG aspect of the game and more of the fighting aspect much like DOTA or Call of Duty except with an 3rd person view and in a fantastic world.
I guess more like a Hexen MMO I guess I'd say MMORVR or MMOPVP should be the classification. I'm not saying it's good or bad, that's a matter of taste and what you enjoy doing.
I've creep'ed on LOTRO as well and have a rank 10 creep there, it's enjoyable as well but isn't part of the RPG experience.
Allot of times the experience for me in that setting was getting together with a group of great people and beating the shit out of one another, trying to flank other groups and destroy them is exhilarating but again it's not RPG.

 

[Cyberarmy]

What is a "RPG aspect"?

Play on RP servers with "hardcore" rolee players and voila!. As someone playing PnP for 20 years, my best role playing experiences are often in MMORPGs even with their limits. I get it you have never been any full RP guild in them MMORPGs.

 

[Garod]

Let's keep the distinction between Role Players and an RPG.
And yes I've done RP in PnP as well as games for about 20 years now.
I'm trying to highlight the game aspect of things and not the player *people* aspect. If you had read my first post you'd understand that distinction as well. If I play a character in Call of Duty or whatever other game it doesn't make that game an RPG.

 

[Mangoose]

Just because there's a story does not make it an RPG, either.

There are MMORPGs with story, but there are not MMORPG with stories that have RPG elements. What is an RPG story element? Well you named the games yourself - WL2, Torment, DOS - games where you have choices to make that have consequences, and where the choices you are allowed to make and your success with those choices depend largely on your character's stats and skills.

Name a single MMORPG that has the above. (that is not a glorified single player game, a la SWTOR)

PVP can be RPG (outside of storyfaggotry) because it can reflect your choices in your build, how much you've leveled, your stats, etc. In essence, what matters in an RPG (gameplay where choices depend on your abstract stats and skills).

I think you just hit the nail on the head though in what Camelot is, it's more of a "Sandbox" than an MMORPG.

Except that I said that Camelot is a themepark, not a sandbox. And that the sandbox nature of UO and Eve Online are the reason that facilitates the roleplaying that occurs, and which occurs more than all other MMO types.

 

[Snerf]

Calling daoc not an mmorpg is goddamn stupid. Your rational sucks and your conclusion is wrong.

I knew of plenty of people who enjoyed the rpg aspect. Realm pride is an rpg concept.

UO was a fine game pre split, but daoc was hands down the best example of a themepark mmoRPG and also happened to have the best pvp in any mmo period. UO was the best open-sandbox mmo, but calling it more of an rpg than daoc is borderline retarded.

 

[Garod]

Snerrf how about you read the previous posts before making an idiot out of yourself?
I said Camelot Unchained isn't an MMORPG not DaOC, get your facts straight. And comments like rational sucks and conclusion is wrong without any kind of reasoning behind it is just pointless drivel.

Mangoose, problem is in MMO's the world can't change depending on your choices because it's a shared world so on that aspect you are completely right. There may be some small side quests where you have a choice on to whom to return a lost item etc but nothing worth mentioning.
Having said that, UO did have GM driven storylines with choice/consequence, but granted that wasn't due to the game mechanics and more to the active participation of GM's who drove those storylines those storylines however did have a major impact on the world (undead invasion of Minoc with the blight, and the destruction of Jhelom)

For me though an RPG isn't only about choice and consequence it's about story, and LOTRO definitely had story in it, you were following the fellowship along their quest and "helping" in essence progress their journey through the main instances. Granted allot of the side quests were horrible fetch & kill quests but the main storyline was very nice.

 

[Destroid]

I don't really understand how they can make a quality MMO for 2 mil. These guys are obviously talented, but are they miracle workers?

It will be fun to see how this turns out. Kickstarting single player games feels fine, but an MMO just has so much shit involved with hosting servers etc..

Don't need as much money if you don't have to make shitloads of PvE content and assets.

 

[Snerf]

Doesn't change my comments at all. Unchained still has the realm pride bit that gave daoc plenty of mmoRPG bits. I don't have to make my arguments better when the ones I'm disagreeing with are so useless.

 

[Garod]

Seems to me that either you don't have any points to make and are only spouting comments base on fandom not reality or your simply not intelligent enough to make any.
Seriously your still basing all your arguments on DaOC, and "realm pride"?? wtf does that have to do with RPG? you're probably one of those people who kills folks and then yells "noob" and thinks that's rollplaying because in real life you are a nice person.

 

[Exar Kun]

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155423/atheist-war

 

[Mangoose]

Mangoose, problem is in MMO's the world can't change depending on your choices because it's a shared world so on that aspect you are completely right. There may be some small side quests where you have a choice on to whom to return a lost item etc but nothing worth mentioning.
Having said that, UO did have GM driven storylines with choice/consequence, but granted that wasn't due to the game mechanics and more to the active participation of GM's who drove those storylines those storylines however did have a major impact on the world (undead invasion of Minoc with the blight, and the destruction of Jhelom

I agree with this.

For me though an RPG isn't only about choice and consequence it's about story, and LOTRO definitely had story in it, you were following the fellowship along their quest and "helping" in essence progress their journey through the main instances. Granted allot of the side quests were horrible fetch & kill quests but the main storyline was very nice.

Here's where your argument falls apart. An RPG is about story? So any game that is story-focused is an RPG? Please. That is just as asinine as saying an RPG is a game where you play a role.

Any type of game can have a story. Any type of game can put their emphasis on their story, or not put their emphasis on the story.

If you take LOTRO, keep the story, keep the quests, keep everything BUT change all the combat mechanics to FPS style. Is that game still an RPG or is it a shooter now? Hm?

 

[Garod]

Good question Mangoose, I guess I'd call it an FPS at that point, I mean halo has a story and would be called an FPS by most people you ask. But then FPS is a name for the way you view the game, it's a First Person Shooter. What about games which combine both aspects FPS RPG?
I guess it's point of view and personal opinion.
It does go back to your question of can an MMO actually be an RPG or are the players who play Role Players when they want to. Do the people make the game or does the game offer playing possibilities to the gamer.
By that standard you are right and no MMO can really be an RPG or all MMO's are RPG's. I'm of the opinion that MMO's offer the possibility of RP but aren't an RPG's in and of themselves.

 

[Snerf]

Who's troll alt is garod? It's past the point of believing to be a real opinion now.

CU is still an mmorpg because it's massively multiplayer and because you play the role of a character in that world. Hacking on npc monsters or being a sandbox game aren't the sole definitions of an mmorpg. It's not shaping up to be an arena game, it's an mmorpg that focuses on realm v realm combat, crafting and housing. Someone could easily "play a role" in that setting or scenario.

While I remain skeptical of a kickstarted mmo, focusing solely on rvr, crafting and housing is basically my mmo dream. So, I'm crossing my fingers in hope.

 

[Mangoose]

CU is still an mmorpg because it's massively multiplayer and because you play the role of a character in that world.

You "play the role of a character" in any. fucking. game. you play.

Someone could easily "play a role" in that setting or scenario.

The minute you touch the controls in an FPS or adventure or strategy game you are "playing a role."

 

[Garod]

Snerf I'm not a Troll, simply a gamer who's has his doubts about this game.
Btw here's an interesting read from another forum:

EA has no business sense when it comes to consumer wants. DAoC 2 was a failed dream unrealized years ago. Mark Jacobs can take cues from DAoC but he's compromised when he sold Mythic Entertainment to EA and Camelot Unchained will never truly be DAoC 2 because of that. What made DAoC "DAoC" was the core group at Mythic, most of that brain-trust is spread to all corners of game development now, no longer working in that core group at Mythic. Mark Jacobs is only one piece of that equation and I don't think the solution is an knockoff of his old IP without the backup of those that made DAoC what it was. There were so many other big players that made things what they were other than Mark Jacobs. I say that as a person who was an active participant in the internal forums giving dev feedback at Mythic since the SI expansion. I still have an account there but it's mostly just old Team Leaders chatting it up with devs in the Mad Friar's Inn sub-forum. Nothing like the activity and passion for the game that people had a long time ago.

I don't see this as the same situation as Chris Roberts + Wing Commander = SC. Camelot Unchained is something different. I think people actually want a DAoC 2 with the original Mythic core staff and Mark Jacobs can't provide that sort of magic unless he has mastered time travel into the past. I never saw Mark Jacobs as the core vision of DAoC even if he thought he was. The only way he'd truly capture that vision again is to have the same key players in development, marketing and customer service. That's unobtainium. He couldn't even reproduce that synergy when he still had the resources to with Imperator and Warhammer Online. In hindsight I see Mark Jacobs as what was wrong with DAoC, not what was right. He brought Mythic Entertainment's downfall into being sold off to EA and what turned out to be the failed abortion that today is called Bioware-Mythic. I don't trust his judgement. I appreciate what he wants to do. He just doesn't have the resources or tools to do it with the right people. The human equation of that he can't properly account for anymore. Those people are now the development behind games like Rift, GW2, Elder Scrolls Online and other big titles. They've moved on and I doubt they'd play second violin to Mark Jacobs anymore.

Originally Posted
I'm sorry but I cannot agree to that thinking BHawthorne. To say that he cannot produce another great game that is similar to an older one is like saying there hasn't been another great car since the Model T. Yes, it revolutionized the game industry back then. New people come with new skills and new visions. To write them off already is idiotic.
I completely agree with you about EA(keep in mind there are other publishers that perform just as bad). They make games that fall short. However, I think Warhammer was more EA's fault then it was Mr. Jacobs. There were too many things lacking to make it feel as a follow up game from DAoC.
Outside of EQ, UO, and DAoC there has yet to be a good and rewarding MMO. WoW was great for the gear grind, but this game will provide something new. It is possibly bringing forth everything i remember and enjoyed from my DAoC time.

Give credit where credit is due. It might not be your style but it can still be great. I absolutely hate futuristic games, but I decided to give this a try and support it. Can you say the same?
You don't have to agree with me, but calling my opinion idiotic is misplaced angst. Also, where do you get that DAoC was not my style? Even now I'm a member of the DAoC internal boards. If you don't know what that is, you probably don't know much about the development of DAoC. I give most credit to the Mythic dev pool -- before it started hemorrhaging the true talent in their ranks 2007 on. Mark Jacobs caused most of what went wrong with Mythic. Even Mark Jacobs admits that himself. No amount of introspection changes that. Mark Jacobs is no Chris Roberts or Richard Garriott, no matter how much he wants to be in his thinly veiled attempt at riding the crowd-sourcing wave. Mark Jacobs was the type of person that took the magic out of the bottle and once out he couldn't put it back in.

I do give credit where credit is due. Mythic I liken to a perfect storm of people when it was at it's height. I do give credit where it's due and I don't think Mark Jacobs is due much the credit for that. Looking at the CityState staff page on their site, no big Mythic names are there even though he claims to have a few of the old guard from Mythic. I don't see a critical mass of tallent on that list that would be required to make something special. For years I interacted with Mythic staff on a daily basis on their invite only internal board and I see none of those people in Mark Jacob's staff list. I would get in on the friend's and family Alpha 1 builds when Mythic developed expansions. That was a small tight knit core of hand selected people. Maybe I have a bit different insight than you do on the situation and you apparently don't understand or acknowledge that perspective.

I do think Camelot Unchained is a romantic notion, but I'd rather put my faith in someone like Matt Firor, who is doing Elder Scrolls Online and was one of the real brains behind DAoC. I could name another dozen more talented former Mythic staffers than Mark Jacobs.

Slightly off topic, but you have to realize that Warhammer Online was in trouble way before EA got their grubby hands into the development process. The reason why Mythic sold was they were having design problems with WAR and needed to re-do core mechanics at least twice. That required Mythic to sell and get a monetary infusion from EA. Mark Jacobs squandered Mythic assets on the failed Imperator and it was beginning to look like another case of squandered assets with WAR thanks to Mark Jacob's direction. Being answerable and using an existing IP was the nail on Mythic's coffin with Warhammer. They were beholden to a 3rd party for all design decisions. Adding in a publisher like EA just was icing on the cake to be 100% compromised. Mark Jacobs saw dollar signs in Warhammer franchise and saw dollar signs in EA. He couldn't get beyond that and it killed the core of Mythic in the process. While Mark Jacobs might claim to have learned some tough lesson in all of that, I don't see any evidence that he truly learned anything in the process. He has made some catastrophically bad management decisions in his life and I simply don't trust him.

I have little doubt Camelot Unchained will occur. I just don't buy into Mark Jacobs waxing nostalgic, there would be at least 2 or 3 key Mythic devs on that staff list if he truly was. It is actually souring me on Camelot Unchained rather than making me excited. It's Mark Jacob's lack of vision that killed Mythic. Why would his vision or methodology be truly any different now on his own?

The only thing redeeming in all of this is that DAoC and UO still exist under Bioware-Mythic and have not been shuttered.

 

[Snerf]

I share plenty of concern, but this person having more faith in matt frior is insane. ESO is absolute garbage. It's another wow clone with elderscrolls window-dressing. Sorry, Matt freaking frior is nothing now.

Plain and simple, people buy into this because of daoc and the lack of any even half decent pvp mmorpg since the heyday of daoc. Every other one sucked. And every single new one will suck unless it walks the talk that CU is promising.

Am I convinced it will happen? No. But I'm so frustrated with garbage carebear wow derivatives and endless mobas that I'm willing to hope.

No pve.

All rvr, crafting and housing is basically my mmo wet dream. It's the only vision that a lot of us previous players are willing to spring for these days. It's a rejection of every single other mmorpg currently in action, and it's that kind of middle finger vision that we need.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Camelot and Pathfinder won't get enough money to accomplish what they want.