Character system

[Vault Dweller]

Here is my game system. Comments are welcome

6 attributes: 3 physical, 3 mental:
Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Char

20 skills:
One handed melee - general ability to fight with any weapon in one hand, represents brute force
Two handed melee - same as above when holding something with both hands
Exotic melee - same as above when holding something wierd looking but apparently deadly
Ranged weapons - you don't like to deal with people up close and personal
Critical strike - you prefer to hit where it actually hurts
Armor - this skills reduces heavy armor penalties, adds protection bonuses
Dodge - armor only slows you down
Sneak - people wont bother you if they can't see you
Disguise - even if you don't walk the walk, you definitely talk the talk when you're wearing somebody else's armor or clothes
Lockpick - how else can you open something locked
Disarm - some people are so paranoid they trap their stuff, can you believe that?
Steal - it's effectively the art of trading with no money down
Spot - a useful skill, you can spot pretty much anything from traps to bullshit
Persuasion - blablabla, the art of talking
Streetwise - what good is the art of talking if people don't listen to you, also helps you to figure out when people are trying to take advantage of you
Etiquette - you can't say things like wazzup to a noble lord, duh!
Lore - you know history, old languages, and value of the old things
Trading - you can sell pretty much anything and you can buy things that are not for sale
Repair - fixing broken stuff, you never know what you can come across.
Healing - the art of applying a bandaid the sticky side down

10 melee subskills (dagger, sword, axe, hammer, spear, bow, xbow, throwing, exotic1, exotic2). These represent specialization and finesse. You can invest in a general skill like one-handed, or specialize in swords, or any mix of both.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Be interesting to see how you implement disguise. That's one skill that definitely should have made it's way into a couple of CRPGs I can think of. The attributes are basic RPG stuff, but it's something I can live with. And I think you meant for bow, xbow, and thrown to be ranged subskills, not melee. Looks good though. Can't wait for more details.

 

[Human Shield]

Here is my game system. Comments are welcome

6 attributes: 3 physical, 3 mental:
Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Char

These are a bit overused...

I think stats should be representative of nature abilities not values to measure grown people, you could say someone is born with Int but I would say they would be born with good reasoning ability (intelligence reflects what they learn not what they could), I would say someone would have good people instincts instead of charisma (learned).

I would prefer something like:

Bodily Strength (how easy they find physical activities, muscle growth rate and lung size etc..) - Field Sports Athlete
Bodily Nerves (Precise control over body parts, reflexes, steady hands) - Miniature building / Martial Arts
Bodily Agility (speed and balance with body) - Gymnast

Intuitive Mind (Instincts/senses, inner feelings of best thing to do, important for a smooth talker or hunter, skills make the difference) - Politician \ CEO
Rational Mind (Natural wiring of brain to figure out problems) - Math and Sciences
Abstract Mind (Ability to put together something abstract, understand new and different ideas) - Poet \ Priest

20 skills:
One handed melee - general ability to fight with any weapon in one hand, represents brute force

Are shields a separate skill? Is there any benefit in going one handed with no shield?

Critical strike - you prefer to hit where it actually hurts

I would like critical strikes to be up to perks (special training) and other skills in weapons.

Armor - this skills reduces heavy armor penalties, adds protection bonuses
Dodge - armor only slows you down

Do these oppose each other? Does dodge effect heavy armor (or even light).

Persuasion - blablabla, the art of talking
Trading - you can sell pretty much anything and you can buy things that are not for sale

Isn't trading just 'persuading' a merchant? I don't like making merchants into strange abstract money machines; persuasion, streetsmarts / etiquette (on class of merchant), and maybe lore should decide skill in dealing with merchants.

Maybe add skills like combat endurance, and focus/willpower (if you need it). And maybe a 'speed' skill determining training that goes into running fast.
[/quote]

 

[Transcendent One]

It looks decent enough, although seems a lot was borrowed from D&D. But the disguise skill sounds fascinating. How are you planning to implement that? Will the character be able to, for example, spy on a certain faction and eventually pick up the little details and eventually unlock an option of creating their.. say... special robes?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Be interesting to see how you implement disguise.

Combination of bluff, intimidate, and gather information. You can arrive into a town, ask around learning stuff like what's happening, who's who, etc, then if you manage to acquire a proper looking armor, you can use the information you learned to fit in. Other then obvious peaceful ways to get where you want, it would give you another way into factions: you can either earn their disposition or you can pretend you're one of them assuming you're good enough.

The attributes are basic RPG stuff, but it's something I can live with.

Less is more

And I think you meant for bow, xbow, and thrown to be ranged subskills, not melee.

Who said you can't whack somebody with a crossbow? Yeah, they meant to be ranged of course.

Looks good though. Can't wait for more details.

Hmm, what else? There are no magik skillz because it's a low magic setting. There are a few itamz here and there, and there are some magic related events, but the art itself takes so long to master that by the time you're ready to go adventuring, you're old and lazy.

 

[symposium]

Weaponry

How applicable is a general skill that applies to exotic weapons? I would say that any skill gain in say ... a scythe ... is unlikely to transfer well to another exotic weapon such as ... a whip : I'd suggest that it's better to provide only specialisation in such weaponry. Of course a skill that represents a general ability to pick up any weapon would be useful, but not anywhere as useful as your general skill that applied to the standard classes of weaponry, like one-handed. However such a skill should apply to a shortsword as much as a double-ended flail (a ridiculous weapon in my opinion) or nun-chuks.

General skill is also unlikely to allow someone to gain special benefit from a weapon that allows specific techniques, take the parrying and disarming usually associated with main gauche.

Another thing that my gaming group has discussed on occasion is the realism of game systems with regards to weapon reach. Take for example two equivalently skilled combatants, one with a knife, the other with a greatsword. At what point is the man with the greatsword even going to allow the man with the knife to get close?! I can't imagine that the knife wielder would have much chance in that fight; and yet if it were D&D, the knife wielder would strike just as often, weapon damage aside.

 

[Vault Dweller]

These are a bit overused...

The concept of a sword is also overused by the same logic. These attributes are very basic stuff that's based on our perception of people.

I think stats should be representative of nature abilities... someone is born with Int but I would say they would be born with good reasoning ability (intelligence reflects what they learn not what they could), I would say someone would have good people instincts instead of charisma (learned).

Imo, people are born smart or dumb, you can learn a lot later, that's for sure, but for some people learning is a breeze, while for other it's a hard work. Some people are naturally charismatic and can get away with anything, etc. Anyway, I see what you mean, but I think of the attributes screen as a snapshot of your character abilities taken when the game begins. No more learning and development, ready or not, here we come.

Bodily Strength, Bodily Nerves, Bodily Agility, Intuitive Mind, Rational Mind, Abstract Mind

This sounds interesting, but it's not very intuitive, and you are using more complicated words to describe basically the same thing. While your definitions are correct, "bodily nerves" sounds like something describing the nervous system. I prefer to use simple concepts to describe things.

Are shields a separate skill? Is there any benefit in going one handed with no shield?

At this points, shields simply add a bonus to your armor value, making you harder to hit. You as in a guy in an armored suit hiding behind a shiled, not the suit itself.

I would like critical strikes to be up to perks (special training) and other skills in weapons.

I've thought about it, but technically critical strike is a skill of hitting an opponent in vulnerable places. It requires the knowledge of anatomy and different armor types, so it's definitely something you have to learn. While lucky strikes would still take place, this would be the skill to increase if you want to dispatch your opponents quickly.

Do these oppose each other? Does dodge effect heavy armor (or even light).

Armor comes with penalties that would reduce the efficiency of dodging.

Isn't trading just 'persuading' a merchant? I don't like making merchants into strange abstract money machines; persuasion, streetsmarts / etiquette (on class of merchant), and maybe lore should decide skill in dealing with merchants.

Hmm, good point. May be. Let me think about this one

Maybe add skills like combat endurance, and focus/willpower (if you need it). And maybe a 'speed' skill determining training that goes into running fast.

I don't think there would be running in the game, as for combat endurance, I also thought about it but decided against it as with low hps (no levels, no hps increase), combat would be resolved quickly enough to make combat endurance not very useful.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

How about dealing with madness? I never see this implemented in the game. A character could have something wronf with him, and be crazy or something. I'd like that :wink:

 

[Vault Dweller]

Re: Weaponry

How applicable is a general skill that applies to exotic weapons?

In this game exotic means non-human weapons from the old days. While they follow different logic then human weapons, they follow some logic nonetheless. Once you understand it you can use a few. Probably I should change the name to avoid the confusion and association with the dnd's exotic stuff. Good point though, may be I should drop the general skill and use specialization only. Thanks.

General skill is also unlikely to allow someone to gain special benefit from a weapon that allows specific techniques, take the parrying and disarming usually associated with main gauche.

General skills and specialized skills have different perk types. General melee skills means that you are good at hitting somebody with anything in one hand. As your skill grow, your learn to deliver more damage, to shrug off some damage, hit more then one opponent, etc. Think of a barbarian. Specialized skill is the way of finese, techniques, skill, and discipline. The perks would reflect that.

Another thing that my gaming group has discussed on occasion is the realism of game systems with regards to weapon reach.

I know what you mean, but I don't think I would be able to address that issue in the game. So let's assume for all intents and purposes that a combatant with a dagger use the openings between slow swings of a greatsword to get close

 

[Psilon]

Do what Musashi suggests. Give defense bonuses to combatants with longer reach.

 

[Human Shield]

Maybe exotic could be "Inhuman weaponry" and it should require perks in lore or a teacher to start learning how to use them. Or "Uncharted Weaponry", or; Freakish, abnormal, irregular, odd, anomalous, bizarre, extraordinary, obscur, mysterious, unorthodox

So shields go under armor skill?

I think there should be a dodge bonus to using a one handed weapon with no shield, your arms are more free then using a two handed weapon.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Do what Musashi suggests. Give defense bonuses to combatants with longer reach.

Let's talk about it. If a person is skilled with a dagger, doesn't the skill imply the knowledge of using daggers in combat including the knowledge of using daggers against those with longer reach weapons? Why else would you choose daggers knowing that 90% of people use something longer? It's a skill. Just like being skilled with a greatsword implies that you learned to use it in extremely close combat.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

You also need to look at it this way:

A guy using a halberd definitely has the reach bonus over someone using the dagger, but they also suffer speed penalties that the dagger wielding foe does not. Therefore, in the end, they both kind of negate each other out as far as defense bonuses.

And now that I think about it, I would recommend you make shield a seperate skill simply because someone skilled enough in using a shield can also use it as a secondary weapon. This way you could come up with perks that utilize the shield, such as Shield Bash or something similar.

 

[Realbumpbert]

It would be good to have a grappling or martial arts skill. I'm not suggesting Kung-Fu, just some sort of weaponless fighting. What if you get locked in a dungeon and have your gear taken away?

It would be interesting to see more skills implemented that kind of fill the gap left by magic. I applaud your decision to go against the high fantasy grain, but without magic, the skills list seems a bit bare-bones (to me, but maybe others feel differently). If I were you, I would definitely implement a diverse crafting system, perhaps giving the ability to create weapons, tools, armor, and maybe even your own costumes for use with the disguise skill. A very cool feature would be an alchemy system a la Darklands; smokebombs or acid could augment the role of a stealth or combat character.

This may not fit the spirit of the game you are designing, but I'd love to see a survival skill, for hunting, trapping, and building shelters or fires.

I might also separate lore into several skills.

You also need to look at it this way:

A guy using a halberd definitely has the reach bonus over someone using the dagger, but they also suffer speed penalties that the dagger wielding foe does not. Therefore, in the end, they both kind of negate each other out as far as defense bonuses.

I don't know. You really think someone with a knife could beat someone with a halberd? Perhaps the most realistic thing to do would follow 'Musashi's' suggestion, but also reduce the speed of the halberd (if there is such a rating).

 

[Petey_the_Skid]

6 attributes: 3 physical, 3 mental:
Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Char

Standard fantasy fare, can't say much about that except: Consider replacing wisdom with perception, essentially that is what wisdom does in the D20 system, especially when you consider the skills it effects. I mean what does how wise you are have to do with how good you see(Spot) and hear(Listen) things? Also, wisdom isn't really so much a stat, as it is one of the few things that increases with experience. You're house gets broken into, you start locking the doors, and so on. If you have the equivalent of will saves, use the charisma modifier instead of the perception(wisdom's replacement). Charisma, which can be argued represents the force of a character's views and personality as opposed to how nice he is, more effectively represents willpower than how wise in the ways of the world someone is. Just because you know not to go out in the rain without proper clothing, doesn't represent how strongwilled you are.

Exotic melee - same as above when holding something wierd looking but apparently deadly

I don't really like the idea of this skill, unless it represents knowledge of how to use really strange and obscure items(modern weaponry for example, or strange magic artifacts that aren't used to hit people like a sword, club, bow or crossbow would). Otherwise, it seems like a redundant skill put into the game to artificially restrict options and/or increase difficulty, much like the Fallout energy weapons skill.

Armor - this skills reduces heavy armor penalties, adds protection bonuses
Dodge - armor only slows you down

These will be interesting, but only if the way armor is used in the game differs from the way Dodge is used. To use an example from D&D again, the effects of armor are equivalent to having a high natural dexterity(which represents dodging). A more accurate reflection(which i believe is what you're going for) is that heavier armor actually makes you easier to hit, you just don't feel it, because you're armor absorbs the damage. Dodging on the other hand, would make you much harder to hit, but would only be effective when wearing little or no armor, so when you do get smacked, you take it pretty hard.

Disguise - even if you don't walk the walk, you definitely talk the talk when you're wearing somebody else's armor or clothes
Persuasion - blablabla, the art of talking
Streetwise - what good is the art of talking if people don't listen to you, also helps you to figure out when people are trying to take advantage of you
Etiquette - you can't say things like wazzup to a noble lord, duh!

I don't understand how you plan to diffrentiate between disguise the way it's described and you're speech skills...are there going to disguise kits you use to make yourself look like somebody else, and wouldn't the art of disguise make it seem to others that you are walking the walk, while persuasion/streetwise/etiqutte would be the ones used to talk the talk?

As for streetwise, I'm assuming this covers talking with thugs etc, i.e. it's etiquette for the underground?

Repair - fixing broken stuff, you never know what you can come across

How general is this skill? are you a combination blacksmith/weaponsmith/jeweller/cartwright/tinker etc, etc, or is it able to be specialized like the melee skills as well?

Maybe it should be replaced with a craft skill, that you can also use to make items with the proper components, again this could be specialized or made very general.

10 melee subskills (dagger, sword, axe, hammer, spear, bow, xbow, throwing, exotic1, exotic2). These represent specialization and finesse. You can invest in a general skill like one-handed, or specialize in swords, or any mix of both.

I'm wondering if these would crossover between one and two handed weapons? Are a hand axe and a greataxe covered by the same Axe skill?

I don't think there would be running in the game, as for combat endurance, I also thought about it but decided against it as with low hps (no levels, no hps increase), combat would be resolved quickly enough to make combat endurance not very useful

I put this in because I'm rather interested in what you mean by low hp's? How do you plan to resolve damage and use armor and dodge. Is it going to be something like the storyteller system, with potential damage ranges, determined by str and weapon type vs armor protection, determined by con and armor type with a set number of health levels for each character?(if there are low hp's, i'd recommend a set number of them for each creature type,ex: every human has 7 health levels and cannot ever have more or less than that, an ogre might have 12 or even higher, a bird might have 2). This is also not considering how dodging and attacking will work, just damage.

As for the other suggestions people have made, I think an unarmed combat skill would be interesting to have, as well a shield skill, and i like the alchemy idea as well. Real magic is hard to come by, but it only takes a bit of skill to whip up a flashbang or crude explosive.

 

[GreenNight]

Do what Musashi suggests. Give defense bonuses to combatants with longer reach.

Let's talk about it. If a person is skilled with a dagger, doesn't the skill imply the knowledge of using daggers in combat including the knowledge of using daggers against those with longer reach weapons? Why else would you choose daggers knowing that 90% of people use something longer? It's a skill. Just like being skilled with a greatsword implies that you learned to use it in extremely close combat.

Let's talk about it. If a person is skilled in hand to hand combat doesn't the skill imply the knowledge of using your extremities in combat, including the knowledge of using them against those with longer reach weapons? Why else would you choose hand to hand knowing that 90% of people use something longer? It's a skill. Just like being skilled with a 9-foot whip implies that you learned to use it in extremely close combat.



Well, of course you train against longer weapons, but knowing how to attack with a short weapon (such as a dagger) or no weapon at all doesn't impart you magic knowlegde to miracleously dodge the blade that you do not control but is in front of you. In todays world 90% of the people (or more) go without weapons, even in a fantasy-medieval world at least 30% of the people (more if in a city with guards) go without weapon. Over them is over who you have an edge. And the smaller the weapon the easier it is to bring it whenever you go, even to places where weapons are not allowed (party time!, conference with nobleman).

The solution would be to give the longer reach weapons a bonus to initiative, acording to reach, at least in the first round of combat. So you would have close combat (dagger), normal reach (sword), long reach (spear). If you are much faster than the wielder of the other weapon you'll be able to strike them before they can strike you, but on a normal situation they got a first whack to you, if you survive you'll be within reach to use your weapon.

I think it would be more realistic than a bonus to defense against shorter weapons. It is not that you're harder to be hit but you have your blade within you and him, if he closes up he has entered your reach and he gets a whach.

Having a perk, specialization, whatever, that let the character feint in order to get within reach without giving the other a bonus to initiative would be sensible (negated if the other knows it is a fake movement).

Do not have another skill to atack with the shield, it's a one handed weapon isn't it? require a specialization before you can use it, but don't place more skills than needed. And name 'disarm' as 'disarm traps', i think of taking the opponent's weapon out of his hands with the first name. Or make just a technical hability with repair and disarm traps as specializations.

Just some ideas. would be more but gotta go to work.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

The solution would be to give the longer reach weapons a bonus to initiative, acording to reach, at least in the first round of combat.

I too had thought about this and agree. Just cause you have a longer weapon doesn't mean you can defend yourself easier. But, you do have the extended reach and therefore should get a minor bonus to initiative. The less mass of the weapon, the more of a bonus. For example, a whip would give you more of a bonus to initiative then a halberd.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Ok let's gather and organize opinions and highlight conclusions on reach and such

Do what Musashi suggests. Give defense bonuses to combatants with longer reach.

You really think someone with a knife could beat someone with a halberd? Perhaps the most realistic thing to do would follow 'Musashi's' suggestion, but also reduce the speed of the halberd (if there is such a rating).

A guy using a halberd definitely has the reach bonus over someone using the dagger, but they also suffer speed penalties that the dagger wielding foe does not. Therefore, in the end, they both kind of negate each other out as far as defense bonuses.

The solution would be to give the longer reach weapons a bonus to initiative, acording to reach, at least in the first round of combat. So you would have close combat (dagger), normal reach (sword), long reach (spear). If you are much faster than the wielder of the other weapon you'll be able to strike them before they can strike you, but on a normal situation they got a first whack to you, if you survive you'll be within reach to use your weapon.

I too had thought about this and agree... you do have the extended reach and therefore should get a minor bonus to initiative. The less mass of the weapon, the more of a bonus. For example, a whip would give you more of a bonus to initiative then a halberd.

I once saw a martial arts demonstration, there was a guy with a katana and a guy without. I don't remember what style the hand-to-hand guy was practicing as it was about 10 years ago, but the point was he never gave a guy with a sword a chance to hit him, he didn't attack him and was playing with him showing off his techniques. Basically, he waited for an attack, evaded it, and then stayed too close blocking the sword arm around the elbow and making the katana useless. Of course, it was a demonstration of a hand-to-hand skill, and probably at the katana demonstration a guy with a sword would have cut a hand-to-hand guy to pieces, but we can assume that both guys are equally good with their weapons and able to counteract opponent's technique.

Then there is also the issue of balance. Why pick a dagger if you know that it puts you at disadvantage right away? You have a weapon with the min damage and you get all kinda penalties proposed above. The only thing that makes sense to me (from realistic perspective) is that a guy with a much longer reach gets the first shot and to hit bonus to represent dagger's poor blocking ability. Then if the guy with a dagger is still standing and still wants to fight he gets close and start whacking away enjoying nice to hit bonuses while the opponent is trying to hit something clinging to him with a greatsword which is hard at that point because of a huge to hit penalties. That's what makes sense, imo, not sure if it's fun though. More thoughts on that? Common, fellas, keep 'em coming.

Edit: Here is something for you http://ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2003/jwm ... s_0603.htm

By 1410, when he published his treatise on knightly combat, Maestro Fiore was a well-established master with 50 years of experience and a deadly repertoire of techniques. Entitled Flos Duellatorum (The Flower of Battle), his illustrated manual covers the use of all the principal knightly weapons - sword, lance, dagger, and poleaxe. In keeping with the necessities of medieval warfare, Maestro Fiore taught his students to fight both on foot and on horseback. Likewise, his manual covers techniques for both armored and unarmored combat. The bulk of the treatise consists of illustrations followed by short, rhyming captions. Fiore's manual survives in three versions, each with slight differences. It appears that two others existed, but they remain lost to history. This article relies on the version published in facsimile format by Francesco Novati in 1902

Unequal Weapons - Dagger vs. Sword

Taking advantage of the longer range of his weapon, the swordsman thrusts at his opponent's belly. Holding his dagger point-down for a stronger grip, the knife-man parries the swordsman's thrust to his right. Quickly closing distance, he steps in with his left foot, catching hold of the swordsman's arm. This prevents the swordsman from escaping to a safer distance. Once in this position of advantage, the knife-man can dispatch his foe with a dagger thrust.

Against a sword thrust at his face, the knife-man lifts his elbow, striking the point to his left with his dagger blade. Stepping in with his right foot to close distance, he again catches hold of his enemy's sword arm.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It would be interesting to see more skills implemented that kind of fill the gap left by magic. I applaud your decision to go against the high fantasy grain, but without magic, the skills list seems a bit bare-bones (to me, but maybe others feel differently).

The skill list itself is nothing. Imo, you could have a 5 skill system, but if a game have many critical uses for every skill making each gaming experience unique and different then it's a good system. If you have a 20 skill system but you mostly use 3 (kill, sneak, talk) and occasionally use other 17 then it's still only a 3 skill system.

If I were you, I would definitely implement a diverse crafting system, perhaps giving the ability to create weapons, tools, armor, and maybe even your own costumes for use with the disguise skill. A very cool feature would be an alchemy system a la Darklands; smokebombs or acid could augment the role of a stealth or combat character.

I'd love to, but can't. It would still take me a lot of time to make this game focusing on char development, making many skills extremely useful, and providing truckload of options and consequences for every quest. That's the main goal. Anything else is a wish list.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Consider replacing wisdom with perception, essentially that is what wisdom does in the D20 system, especially when you consider the skills it effects.

What's the point of changing names? I think that wisdom fits better and not because it's in dnd. Intelligence deals with academical stuff, wisdom deals with life stuff. There are smart people who can add 2+2 without a calculator and stuff, and there are people who can't spell "mathematics" but are smart in real life situations where math doesn't apply.

I mean what does how wise you are have to do with how good you see(Spot) and hear(Listen) things?

Nothing, I agree. I don't have "listen" skill, and "spot" is used to notice anything out of the ordinary. Wisdom rarely helps to spot a nickel on the floor, but it helps to notice that something isn't right: a room in a dungeon is too clean unlike the dusty one you've just been to or that what this person is saying doesn't make sense or add up.

Also, wisdom isn't really so much a stat, as it is one of the few things that increases with experience.

True, but so is str, dex, and almost any stat you can think of.

I don't really like the idea of this skill, unless it represents knowledge of how to use really strange and obscure items(modern weaponry for example, or strange magic artifacts that aren't used to hit people like a sword, club, bow or crossbow would).

Strange and obscure.

Otherwise, it seems like a redundant skill put into the game to artificially restrict options and/or increase difficulty, much like the Fallout energy weapons skill.

Same could be said about one-handed / two-handed split

These will be interesting, but only if the way armor is used in the game differs from the way Dodge is used.

Differs. Armor takes and absorbs the hit reducing its effect. Armors have weak spots though, see Critical Strike. Dodge helps you not to get hit in the first place.

I don't understand how you plan to diffrentiate between disguise the way it's described and you're speech skills...

I don't want to make speech skill too powerful handling way too many things at once. Persuasion is a skill that helps you say the right thing in the right time, be convincing, present your point as valid and important, make someone to doubt his position, etc. Disguise is gathering information, bluffing, and most importantly having balls to do that. Suffice to say that not every good talker is a con artist.

As for streetwise, I'm assuming this covers talking with thugs etc, i.e. it's etiquette for the underground?

Streetwise is the art of dealing with streets, it covers talking, knowing whom to talk to, what can be said, and knowing when you're being fooled. See the quest in my prev thread http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3653

How general is this skill? are you a combination blacksmith/weaponsmith/jeweller/cartwright/tinker etc, etc, or is it able to be specialized like the melee skills as well?

Combination, maybe I should replace it with Craft, like you suggest, but without actually crafting new stuff (at the moment)

I'm wondering if these would crossover between one and two handed weapons? Are a hand axe and a greataxe covered by the same Axe skill?

Yep, you know how to use a stick with a blade attached to it. Improving two-handed skill helps though, you get access to two-handed perks as well.

I put this in because I'm rather interested in what you mean by low hp's? How do you plan to resolve damage and use armor and dodge. Is it going to be something like the storyteller system

I'm considering 3 different models at the moment. I want to make weapon skills, hitting, protecting, and dodging really matter.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And name 'disarm' as 'disarm traps', i think of taking the opponent's weapon out of his hands with the first name. Or make just a technical hability with repair and disarm traps as specializations.

Alright, traps or disarm traps it is then, good point. As for disarming an opponent, weapon specialization would give you that option. It's a must, imo.

 

[mr. lamat]

i think 'resolve' would make a great basic stat or possibly perk/skill. use it as a check for combat bonuses/penalties versus new or greater enemies. it could also be used for character interactions when more violent means of persuasion are needed. dedication to the cause always seems taken for granted in rpgs.

perhaps it could be a rather esotheric skill, as you go along in the game the pc becomes more focused to getting the job done. getting tagged by a critical hit doesn't stun him or her anymore, it just pisses them off and they respond in kind. when the new uber baddy comes along, they'll still frightened but that emotion seems a little secondary to stabbing the fucker in the throat.

balance it out by refusal to make nice with other npcs and an absolute lack of compassion for others when it comes to the job at hand. the pc simply cannot be talked out of any mission he/she has taken on.

ooh... and they gotta be able to knockdown and pin enemies as well.

 

[GreenNight]

I once saw a martial arts demonstration, there was a guy with a katana and a guy without. I don't remember what style the hand-to-hand guy was practicing as it was about 10 years ago, but the point was he never gave a guy with a sword a chance to hit him, he didn't attack him and was playing with him showing off his techniques. Basically, he waited for an attack, evaded it, and then stayed too close blocking the sword arm around the elbow and making the katana useless. Of course, it was a demonstration of a hand-to-hand skill, and probably at the katana demonstration a guy with a sword would have cut a hand-to-hand guy to pieces, but we can assume that both guys are equally good with their weapons and able to counteract opponent's technique.

If he one without weapon disarmed the other and applied holds to him it was probably aikido (I practice it).

Then there is also the issue of balance. Why pick a dagger if you know that it puts you at disadvantage right away? You have a weapon with the min damage and you get all kinda penalties proposed above. The only thing that makes sense to me (from realistic perspective) is that a guy with a much longer reach gets the first shot and to hit bonus to represent dagger's poor blocking ability. Then if the guy with a dagger is still standing and still wants to fight he gets close and start whacking away enjoying nice to hit bonuses while the opponent is trying to hit something clinging to him with a greatsword which is hard at that point because of a huge to hit penalties. That's what makes sense, imo, not sure if it's fun though. More thoughts on that? Common, fellas, keep 'em coming.

First things first. Why pick a dagger? It's small, you can conceal it easilly, it's light, it doesn't encumber you, it's better than nothing. So, if you have a nimble caracter but not very strong you'll be better with little armor, so its weight won't encumber you, and dodge whatever comes to you. If you are quite strong perhaps a heavy armor will be more beneficial to you, and then, not having to worry about mobility, a heavier weapon will be more useful.

Combat, initiative and such things, explanation of a wild idea:
Each combatant has certain initiative rating (more the better).
Each combatant rolls initiative.
Each weapon has a initiative/ready rating. Longer weapons get more initiative but it takes more to ready them.
Add combatant initiative and combatant roll, sort them in descending order and this is when they can attack.
Add to the previous sum the weapon initiative, and that is when the combatant is ready to whack anything that gets in range, as an AoO but losing the chance to attack in his own turn.
After that it costs (weapon ready) action points to ready the weapon.
How to give action points, calculate initiative to posterior turns and whatever else is left as an exercise to more awoken brains.

Example:
Elf 1 initiative 5, roll 4, spear 4 [9,13]
Elf 2 initiative 7, roll 6, dagger 1 [13,14]
Elf 3 initiative 6, roll 9, sword 2 [15,17]
against
Orc 1 initiative 4. roll 9, two-handed axe 3 [13,16]
Orc 2 initiative 6, roll 2, spear 4 [8,12]
Orc 3 initiative 5, roll 4, sword 2 [9,11]

Ties:
Elf 2 vs Orc 1 -> Elf 2 faster
Elf 1 vs Orc 3 -> all equal, second roll wins Orc 3
Order:
Elf 3, Elf 2, Orc 1, Orc 3, Elf 1, Orc 2

Elf 3 wants to get rid of Orc 1 and goes towards him. Orc 1 is slower, but already has the weapon ready and being it longer gets to attack if he wants, and he does, killing the Elf. Elf 2 prefers to attack Orc 3, and even though the orc's got longer reach he's not fast enough to be able to prevent the nimble elf from attacking him, and perishes due to a nice critical. Orc 3 cannot attack (it has already done it) so he places himself tactically for the next round. Elf 1 is next, and attacks Orc 2. Both have equal range, so being faster the Elf pokes an eye out of the orc's head, killing him.

Enough daydreaming, it's time to night-dream.

 

[Human Shield]

Concealment should be a factor in weapons. People carry handguns instead of submachineguns because they can hide them. Walking up to a guard with a sword on your belt would cause him to watch you, while a dagger could be tucked away.

 

[Jed]

The problem with the dagger vs. katana scenario is, when talking in terms of realism, our values on the weapons are skewed. In RPGs, a dagger can only do a limited amount of damage in one strike, whereas a katana does a larger, yet also limited amount of damage. In real life, either cankill you dead instantly. In real life, someone who's mastered a dagger, while not looking to fight someone who's wielding a katana, at least has stategy and tactics to deal with the difference of reach. I would imagine parrying or dodging the katana, closing the gap of the effective range of the katana (you can't much with a long sword once someone's as close as your elbows), and then a quick stab in the throat, heart, or possibly a hard strike into the skull throught the eye or temple to end the encounter as quickly as possible.

But as we all know, "more real" isn't always fun. What I would like to see in RPGs to represent the different balances of different weapons would be tactical options available when using each weapon. For example, in DnD, a spiked chain can be used for trip attacks, whereas a sword can't, but much more detailed and elaborate. A person with a dagger, once in the adjoining hex of an enemy could have options for stabbing or cutting critical points; perhaps a person with a sword would be able to deflect incoming arrows; someone fighting empty handed could attempt to take weapons away from attackers. These would need to be keyed to skills and/or perks, not only the weapons themselves, of course. Just because someone picks up a dagger and has a basic uderstanding of bladed weapons doesn't mean they should immediately know how to throw a dagger effectively.

I think fighting styles would also be an interesting way to rework some of the mundane balance issues surrounding different weapons. I thought spears were the most boring weapons until I saw Musa. The way Pilipino/Filipino arts approach fighting blade vs. blade is very different than the Japanese way (speaking traditionally, of course). Much of the time samurai focused on head shots and other catastrophic strikes, whereas eskrimadors often have a much more back-and-forth style, and employ a lot of nasty tricks like attacking the weapon hand/arm ("defanging the snake"). Incidentally, since it's come up so often and usually so heatedly, if one wants to look at some examples of effective real life dual-wielding, eskrima is the place to look.

Some ideas...