Interview Chris Avellone Interview Part 3

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Tags: Chris Avellone; Obsidian Entertainment

<p>After <a href="http://willooi.com/2011/06/unmasking-the-gamers-chris-avellone-part-1/" target="_blank">part 1</a> and <a href="http://willooi.com/2011/08/unmasking-the-gamers-chris-avellone-part-2/" target="_blank">part 2</a> Will Ooi put up the <a href="http://willooi.com/2011/09/unmasking-the-gamers-chris-avellone-part-3/" target="_blank">third and final part</a> of his MCA interview on his blog.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><strong>WO: From a narrative point of view, what do you think the pros and cons are in regards to having an open world as opposed to the classic isometric angles for RPGs in terms of both atmosphere and limitations? And what challenges do these varying engines/in-game worlds bring when it comes to writing a game where, just with landscape alone, so much is already immediately visible and there isn&rsquo;t as much of a mental, &lsquo;filling in the blanks&rsquo; process?</strong><br /><br /><strong>MCA:</strong> Narration cannot be separated from level or system design, imo, and camera angles are a big part of that. As an example, there are certain vistas and moments in Fallout 3 and New Vegas that could not be accomplished without breaking you out of the isometric view regardless (REPCONN rockets launching). You can&rsquo;t get the full impact of weather, day/night, seeing the moon over Vegas, seeing the two Ranger Statues in the distance at the Mojave outpost, seeing distant flames at Nipton, looking up to see the Goodsprings cemetery with the skyline of Vegas behind it, or seeing the storms of the Divide to complement the location (the last four of which I&rsquo;d argue are strong narrative moments as well as superior level design touches that cannot be done isometrically). I feel isometric is great for multi-party (like, 5-6 individuals you&rsquo;re controlling in combat), but when you&rsquo;re the lone wanderer with one or two companions that take general orders, it&rsquo;s not essential.<br /><br />After Dungeon Siege 3 and FNV, I feel it&rsquo;s important to add depth regardless of the camera view &ndash; by that, I mean all of the distant vistas and signpost objects (ex: the 2 statues of the rangers shaking hands at the Mojave Outpost you can see cutting the horizon) provide the sense of a larger world, as well as a goal to travel to in the game. In Dungeon Siege 3, the push came from the verticality in the locations: frequently, the camera view would allow the player to see many levels down into valleys, ruined canyons in caves, and even multi-tiered lit levels that really added to the level design.<br /><br />My preference? If you&rsquo;re shooting for immersion, keep the player out of the picture as much as possible and try to keep everything as if the screen is your eyes. If it&rsquo;s a highly customizable game (as RPGs tend to be), I derive the most enjoyment out of 3rd person views that allow me to fully see what I&rsquo;m carrying. When things get tactical and I need to know where everyone is on the screen at one time, iso&rsquo;s the way to go.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>&nbsp;</p>

 

[zeitgeist]

Lies and ex post facto justifications.

 

[villain of the story]

In other words, if a new PST game happens, it will be a shitty FPS or TPS.

A lot of those things are ultimately pointless or irrelevant. You can achieve similar (and different on its own) effect by having beautiful paintings at certain points that you can check out. At least they won't look like shit because you really have to see a very shitty low-poly LOD versions of the actual models. The idea of the statues in FNV was nice but they looked like diarrhea in distance. Like many other things did.

 

[J_C]

Very interesting interview. Screw the haters.

 

[curry]

Who gives a fuck about MCA. He hasn't designed any good games in a decade.

 

[villain of the story]

FNV DLCs says hi. Oh but maybe you are too insecure about those.

Still, he had this to say:

If you’re shooting for immersion, keep the player out of the picture as much as possible and try to keep everything as if the screen is your eyes.

What a load of bullshit.

 

[J_C]

If you’re shooting for immersion, keep the player out of the picture as much as possible and try to keep everything as if the screen is your eyes.

What a load of bullshit.

But he also said that

When things get tactical and I need to know where everyone is on the screen at one time, iso’s the way to go.

So I guess we are even.

Who gives a fuck about MCA. He hasn't designed any good games in a decade.

It seems that the 2011 newfags are worse than the 2010 newfags. I'm happy now, my year is not the worst.

 

[Stinger]

The original concept for Ulysses sounds really interesting. Don't get me wrong, the current version of Ulysses seems like he'll be incredible, but I would've really liked a companion as reactive on both the world and the player as Avellone's original concept for Ulysses.

 

[Cynic]

I simply can't understand why people think that first person is more immersive than a well crafted world with a great atmosphere where the camera is pulled back to give you a fuller view. It's especially disheartening to hear this from a game designer like Avellone. Atmosphere can be immersive, art direction can be immersive, music and sound can be immersive. I don't understand why "BECAUSE IT'S LIKE HIS EYES ARE MINE EYES HURR DURR" = "IMMERSHUNZ!", this completely ignores all other kinds of approaches to pull a player into a world. To be honest, I hate FP, I mostly find it disorienting and shit. I only played one FP series and that was Metroid Prime, which I genuinely enjoyed. But even then, I didn't find the camera assisted in immersion any more than the 2D side scrolling camera did in the previous games. It was the music and the lore of the Metroid universe (of which the Prime games had a good amount of) that got me into the game and in essence got me over the camera.

I guess him saying that party based games need more of an overview is good. But who knows when another party based cRPG is going to get made. Even when they sell well like Dragon Age, the creators still went full retard with the sequel.

 

[Stinger]

Yeah for me immersion is made by good writing. Fallout NV might have a lot of the 'immersion breaking' flaws like Radiant AI and other things that Oblivion and Fallout 3 had but it's more than made up for by the well written world and integrated faction mechanics.

I don't really think the camera angle really affects anything beyond practicality for the gameplay (i.e. top down if you've got a more strategic party based kinda game, first person/over the shoulder for a more action based game etc).

 

[Clockwork Knight]

MCA: Narration cannot be separated from level or system design, imo, and camera angles are a big part of that. As an example, there are certain vistas and moments in Fallout 3 and New Vegas that could not be accomplished without breaking you out of the isometric view regardless (REPCONN rockets launching).

Hmmm. Couldn't colorful written descriptions fill in for the actual scene?

 

[roll-a-die]

MCA: Narration cannot be separated from level or system design, imo, and camera angles are a big part of that. As an example, there are certain vistas and moments in Fallout 3 and New Vegas that could not be accomplished without breaking you out of the isometric view regardless (REPCONN rockets launching).

Hmmm. Couldn't colorful written descriptions fill in for the actual scene?

An old sentiment comes to mind, well several, that make sense in the context of this question. "Show, don't tell." "A picture is worth a thousand words." And "A directors vision and control over a picture is necessary for a successful film."

To explain, Show, don't tell, while yes, telling allows for more vague description, but showing allows for a more emotional connection. Could you imagine if at the end of Planescape, they left you with a closing page, or paragraph describing the video. Same for Deus Ex.

A picture is worth a thousand words. It generally takes a thousand words to adequately describe an image in it's entirety. Maybe more, maybe less, depending on if it's a Rothko or a DaVinci. At some point, you are no longer playing an RPG and have stepped into a text adventure.

A directors vision and control is necessary for a successful film. To remove control from the hands of the dev's into the players, leads to radically different perspectives of the events, which renders things so they have to be written fully in exactitude or, if you are intending to have theses features, IE to impose questions, on what exactly happened, this could be good method.

To give you an example of how the the Repconn facility launch would have to be written, here.

"You see before you, to the right of the platform, a hanger door opening, there's a sound of clattering, and the engines start to fire, slowly steam and mist strewn about from the heat filter out, and the engines finally launch. It's a loud bellowing sound, crossed with a whine, as the the rockets lift off the ground and out the hanger door. The rockets themselves are varying in color, one green with orange striping, and a a 50s rocketeer styling."

And so on, that's literally just the middle of what would take about a page and a half to describe in full, then you have to deal with localization of the massive amounts of texts, and likely colloquialisms you've used. Translation isn't cheap, and good translations are rare.

 

[SerratedBiz]

It isn't necessary to make a step-by-step depiction of how rockets launch. An emotional scene might be made engaging by concise, gripping sentences. Immersion might be possible if the writing appeals to what the player considers a plausible response in such a situation, images and thoughts included.

But that would take more than the half-assed attempt you put up and that might be the problem with the writing approach in the first place.

 

[Sacculina]

"BECAUSE IT'S LIKE HIS EYES ARE MINE EYES HURR DURR" = "IMMERSHUNZ!"

Try Thief and Thief 2. When the idiots at Ion Storm introduced third person in Thief: Deadly Shadows, it only showed how much better the FPP was (and I mean this from a gameplay perspective as well). Amnesia: The Dark Descent was hit-and-miss for horror fans, but I doubt it would have worked at all if it didn't have FPP.

Anyway, here's MCA on F:NV's DLCs and DLCs in general: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUABalLo ... r_embedded

Very interesting interview. Screw the haters.

 

[Volourn]

FP view sucks. It is the antthessis of immersion. It takes me OUT of the game. FFS

 

[Shannow]

MCA: Narration cannot be separated from level or system design, imo, and camera angles are a big part of that. As an example, there are certain vistas and moments in Fallout 3 and New Vegas that could not be accomplished without breaking you out of the isometric view regardless (REPCONN rockets launching).

Hmmm. Couldn't colorful written descriptions fill in for the actual scene?

An old sentiment comes to mind, well several, that make sense in the context of this question. "Show, don't tell."

You are taking that far too literally, which is funny because the concept applies to books.
It means, that the lore of the setting should open up by characters talking to each other about it or in a chapter where it is actually happening. Not as paragraph that simply informs the reader. Because such information would break immersion.

For the record, I agree with Stinger about the merits of different POVs. And the game I was most immersed in was FO2. It went so far that I started thinking in action point in RL...

 

[Sacculina]

It went so far that I started thinking in action point in RL...

That's not necessarily a good indication of immersion; I think it just shows how much you've been playing a game. There have been times I've compulsively felt the need to check shadows and light sources (too much Thief), click on an hourglass when I've finished something (too much Total War and HoMM), and, on one occasion, hit Tab to search through my bag (too much System Shock 2). Ah, good times.

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS YOU MENTION FIRST PERSON OR IMMERSION AND IT SWITCHES BRIANS OFF HERE LIKE A LIGHT SWITCH

THE MAIN ADVANTAGE OF ISO IS THE AMOUNT OF CONTENT YOU CAN PACK IN WITH LESS RESOURCES THE ORIGINAL FALLOUTS WERE BETTER BECUASE THEGAME WAS BUILT NETTER NOT BECAUSE THE GAME WAS 2D

 

[J_C]

FP view sucks. It is the antthessis of immersion. It takes me OUT of the game. FFS

Bullshit.

 

[Surf Solar]

FP view sucks. It is the antthessis of immersion. It takes me OUT of the game. FFS

Bullshit.

Actually, Volourn is right.

 

[J_C]

FP view sucks. It is the antthessis of immersion. It takes me OUT of the game. FFS

Bullshit.

Actually, Volourn is right.

How is he right? A FP RPG can be immersive if it is done right. If the level, art and sound design is good, than it can be as immersive as an game with iso camera.

 

[Grunker]

MCA: Narration cannot be separated from level or system design, imo, and camera angles are a big part of that. As an example, there are certain vistas and moments in Fallout 3 and New Vegas that could not be accomplished without breaking you out of the isometric view regardless (REPCONN rockets launching).

Hmmm. Couldn't colorful written descriptions fill in for the actual scene?

An old sentiment comes to mind, well several, that make sense in the context of this question. "Show, don't tell." "A picture is worth a thousand words." And "A directors vision and control over a picture is necessary for a successful film."

To explain, Show, don't tell, while yes, telling allows for more vague description, but showing allows for a more emotional connection. Could you imagine if at the end of Planescape, they left you with a closing page, or paragraph describing the video. Same for Deus Ex.

A picture is worth a thousand words. It generally takes a thousand words to adequately describe an image in it's entirety. Maybe more, maybe less, depending on if it's a Rothko or a DaVinci. At some point, you are no longer playing an RPG and have stepped into a text adventure.

A directors vision and control is necessary for a successful film. To remove control from the hands of the dev's into the players, leads to radically different perspectives of the events, which renders things so they have to be written fully in exactitude or, if you are intending to have theses features, IE to impose questions, on what exactly happened, this could be good method.

To give you an example of how the the Repconn facility launch would have to be written, here.

"You see before you, to the right of the platform, a hanger door opening, there's a sound of clattering, and the engines start to fire, slowly steam and mist strewn about from the heat filter out, and the engines finally launch. It's a loud bellowing sound, crossed with a whine, as the the rockets lift off the ground and out the hanger door. The rockets themselves are varying in color, one green with orange striping, and a a 50s rocketeer styling."

And so on, that's literally just the middle of what would take about a page and a half to describe in full, then you have to deal with localization of the massive amounts of texts, and likely colloquialisms you've used. Translation isn't cheap, and good translations are rare.

YES! YOU'RE RIGHT! LITERATURE IS BULLSHIT!

 

[J_C]

YES! YOU'RE RIGHT! LITERATURE IS BULLSHIT!

Trollolol. It is 2011 and you still read? That's so 1990s.

 

[Stinger]

Don't you guys know? They only had text cause of hardware limitations. If Fallout was made today it'd be a cinematic masterpiece with a dialogue wheel because text is a poor medium for conveying sarcasm or any emotions really (we need icons for that).

 

[Roguey]

How is he right? A FP RPG can be immersive if it is done right. If the level, art and sound design is good, than it can be as immersive as an game with iso camera.

They're probably referring to the lack of peripheral vision and body awareness along with the higher chance of getting motion sickness. Not immersive.