Interview Chris Avellone on the Second-Hand Gaming Market

[crufty]

Retract and redact

All is forgiven!

Used market is important but does not help keep the lights on. However, it may, if the game is good, drive a future new purchase.

 

[Wunderpurps]

OH LOOK
A HONEST UNFILTERED THOUGHT SLIPPED THROUGH THE FACADE
QUICK!!! TO THE REVISEMOBILE!!!

Gosh too bad devs don'tpost here any more. I wish I could get their carefully screened thoughts on games and opinions on gaming carefully chosen to help secure a contract for whatever IP they are going after to go with the blog posts and interviews where they prepare us for ever shorter and dumber games.

 

[Baron]

Looks like MCA has failed a speech check

:D

 

[Drakron]

Yes, that's p much exactly what he's complaining about. The broken market and the archaic methods of it that should be replaced by the digital market.

Oh the digital market were you cannot resell your games and you are completely at the mercy of how the fuck runs it that can just lock you out of the games you paid for without any reason since there is barely any legislation on digital good there is no "archaic" customer protection.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

It is kind of a strange argument. I don't think Honda and Ford complain about Crazy Dave's Used Car Lot, so what's the big deal with stores like Gamespot?

Car Analogies should have died a fucking long time ago.

To be more specific here: You are currently comparing apples to space-mice infested oranges.

They don't have anything comparable (and (nearly) NOTHING is treated the same way including resell). In many countries they are treated by LAW as two completly different types of goods.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Literally the only argument against used games is "waaah, we want more money".

Disclaimer: I've never purchased a used game with the possible exception of Trampoline Terror for the Sega Genesis in the mid 90s. (a bargain at any price).

 

[Roguey]

It is kind of a strange argument. I don't think Honda and Ford complain about Crazy Dave's Used Car Lot, so what's the big deal with stores like Gamespot?

Wikipedia quoting:

Gamestop has frequently been criticized by game developers and publishers for the retailing of used game titles.[25] By reselling used copies at a small discount on the same shelf space as new copies of the game, it is argued that Gamestop is taking profits directly from organizations such as developers and publishers which are solely dependent on their intellectual property for revenue. The motion picture industry prohibits selling second-hand copies of films in the same retail space as new, full-priced copies of films, but for the game industry there are no such established protections. In effect, this means that companies such as GameStop can resell used copies of a game within days of the title's release and keep all of the profit, thereby cutting directly into the critical initial sales which would otherwise go to publishers and developers.

Why don't devs go full digital? Why make a fucking agreement with a publisher in the first place? Obsidian already has a name for themselves, so just sell their games online and/or on shit like steam.

They get to keep all the profits.

Publishers are usually needed to give them the millions of dollars they need to make the things. Project Virginia seems to be Obsidian's small self-funded title, but it looks like they've been running into a lot of logistics issues with it.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

Literally the only argument against used games is "waaah, we want more money".

But this is less an argument against used games and more an argument about Gamestop. And that Gamestop and its tactics suck has been proven a lot.

And regarding Avellones case. How would that help exactly short term? The only thing anyone at Obsidian can worry about regarding used games is that they don't find publishers anymore. Thats pretty much it. They don't get directly more money from preventing a used game sale.

@Obsidians Financial situation. Like I said before. They grew too much and are currently the size of Epic Games!!! (not counting subsidiaries). The only way out of this would probably be to fire half the company.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Literally the only argument against used games is "waaah, we want more money".

But this is less an argument against used games and more an argument about Gamestop. And that Gamestop and its tactics suck has been proven a lot.

Gamestop isn't really relevant. Sure, their method of handling used games is terrible but nothing forces people to use them, other than laziness and ignorance.

Certain people would like to restrict used game sales in general. They may use the terribleness of Gamestop to raise sympathy for their cause, but the real issue here is a desire to recapture lost revenue streams, permanently.

Certain people would like to see a future where selling used games is either a) impossible or b) considered piracy.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

We're not independent, we run month to month based on the graciousness of our publishers and our deliverables, and we've had to let people go solely for financial reasons, not for performance reasons. I've had to let those people go personally, even after not being paid myself and other folks have taken pay cuts. It really makes you examine where the money goes.

The situation at Obsidian must be worse than expected.

No, that sounds like business as usual.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

Literally the only argument against used games is "waaah, we want more money".

But this is less an argument against used games and more an argument about Gamestop. And that Gamestop and its tactics suck has been proven a lot.

Gamestop isn't really relevant. Sure, their method of handling used games is terrible but nothing forces people to use them, other than laziness and ignorance.

Certain people would like to restrict used game sales in general. They may use the terribleness of Gamestop to raise sympathy for their cause, but the real issue here is a desire to recapture lost revenue streams, permanently.

Certain people would like to see a future where selling used games is either a) impossible or b) considered piracy.

1. Yes, Gamestop is relevant. Because people actually USE Gamestop. A LOT. Thats the whole point. Thats also EXACTLY what MCA describes with "people should be more careful who they are reselling to".

2. Way to ignore the second part of my post. While this is true on the publisher side it doesn't make sense for contractors like Obsidian.They just DON'T gain revenue as you propose. The only thing they would care about is selling enough for getting contracted again. But that needs normally a little more sales for it to matter. So why do they care?

 

[Wunderpurps]

So why do they care?

Publisher to feargus: we don't have any more money to give because of gamestop, those bastards, cutting into our margin and if our numbers look bad we have to answer to the stockholders. And the economy is bad right now. Hope you understand.

Feargus to MCA: sorry we can't give you a private jet and mansion like you deserve even though our games have sold half a billion you'll have to live in a burbank apartment still, fucking gamestop man.

MCA: Fucking gamestop!


Of course the money they pay obshitian or what games they hire them for has nothing to do with what they take in, though.

 

[PorkaMorka]

1. Yes, Gamestop is relevant. Because people actually USE Gamestop. A LOT. Thats the whole point. Thats also EXACTLY what MCA describes with "people should be more careful who they are reselling to".

If 100% of Gamestop's used game business moved to other companies with better practices, it wouldn't change anything in terms of the money that Obsidian's publishers get. Gamestop being terrible doesn't really matter, except to the idiots use Gamestop.

The loss of revenue isn't because of Gamestop, the loss of revenue is because a used game market exists.

Gamespot is just an easy target because they're big, terrible and evil.

2. Way to ignore the second part of my post. While this is true on the publisher side it doesn't make sense for contractors like Obsidian.They just DON'T gain revenue as you propose. The only thing they would care about is selling enough for getting contracted again. But that needs normally a little more sales for it to matter. So why do they care?

I agree with the post above. It seems like Avellone believes that he'd get tossed a few more table scraps from the publishers if not for Gamestop used game sales.

Why else would he care so much that he wishes the used game market would get stabbed in the heart? Why else would he bring up Obsidian's financial problems?

He cares because MONEY.

 

[Destroid]

Pretty sad considering their last game was a hit.

 

[Davaris]

Wikipedia quoting:
Gamestop has frequently been criticized by game developers and publishers for the retailing of used game titles.[25] By reselling used copies at a small discount on the same shelf space as new copies of the game, it is argued that Gamestop is taking profits directly from organizations such as developers and publishers which are solely dependent on their intellectual property for revenue. The motion picture industry prohibits selling second-hand copies of films in the same retail space as new, full-priced copies of films, but for the game industry there are no such established protections. In effect, this means that companies such as GameStop can resell used copies of a game within days of the title's release and keep all of the profit, thereby cutting directly into the critical initial sales which would otherwise go to publishers and developers.

I understand what he is talking about now.

If they sell second hand games retail, then developers should demand a share of those sales. Second hand books are not sold in retail stores, they are sold in dusty second hand stores.

Imagine if the big bookstore chains did the same to authors? There would be little reason to write books, because authors would be bypassed and store owners would take the profits.

IMO what Gamestop are doing is legal theft.

 

[ortucis]

He's complaining about anyone that sells any games second-hand. The publishers don't get their $$$ that way, see. Which is why I'm predicting the next thing they'll blame for "the death of vidyagames" will be things like the Steam sale.

Comparing Steam sales to second-hand sales is retarded. With Steam sales developers earn money, with second-hand, they don't earn anything but shit places like Gamestop earns from their work.

Second hand sales is pretty much piracy. Like I've always said, console piracy is the biggest of them all and only now publishers have found a solution to the problem. Go digital.

 

[commie]

While I saved the games, I threw away all my game boxes which looking back I can't believe I did.

I saved a few choice ones like Wing Commander, Ultima 4, and Syndicate, but the vast majority were sent off to the prestigious shelf in the sky aka New Jersey Recycling Program

Ha, yeah, my AD&D Collectors Box, a huge thing; survived as I left it back at my parents' house while I was at university, as did a few others like Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe(this was great just for the manual alone) as they too were left behind.

Simple, Phelot. You thought next year would bring better, shinier, newer boxes and greater games within! Games that'd make those we already bought look like shit.

Oh, what fools we were.

I thought this: I had just bought System Shock 2, right after Homeworld, Outcast, Thief, PS:T and SMAC...it looked like a never ending escalator to incline land! Who would give a shit about games from 1990 that wouldn't run anyway when it was obvious that by 2009 games would be so fucking awesome that your fucking mind would explode!

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Sucks to be MCA (and Obsidian), but I don't feel an iota of sympathy for them. If customers are buying your product at full price, and then selling it at pawn shop level to Gamestop in numbers significant enough to severely dent early sales, then that says something about your product. Namely that customers don't value it much in the longer term. Maybe Obsidian should try and focus on making games that people will want to keep for a little longer, or value more than a five dollar trade in.

Quite frankly, digital distribution isn't going to save them as long as they are marketing themselves to console users. Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo will be loathe to use digital distribution as a primary game delivery platform for full price titles. They know that users ability to rent, borrow, and buy used is a huge draw to consoles. Popping in a disc and playing the game in your living room with no muss, no fuss, is another big advantage consoles have, one that digital distribution takes away from a lot of people. It's just not gonna fly, at least in the short-term, on consoles.

If Obsidian doesn't like Gamestop cutting into sales so much they should:

-Make "better" games. They need to deliver more lasting value to avoid a hit to sales from the Gamestop effect. I go to Gamestop occasionally to get cheap games. Guess what I see them selling a lot of? Obsidian (and close "peers") games. Guess what I don't see a bevy of for cheap? Recent Bioware, Bethesda, Bungie, Epic, and all sorts of other big developer's titles. People probably won't be trading in Rimjob like they will Dung Siege or Alpha Brotocol. New Vegas was probably a step in the right direction as far as this goes. If Obsidian did more stuff like that, then Gamestop might not be such a problem.

-Get a different business model. Make small scale games conducive to digital distribution. Think budget titles that would fit right on the XBox Live arcade, PSN, or WiiWare. Try for (relatively) high volume of sales for a (relatively) low production cost.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

Guys, guys, stop arguing! All of your points are moot.

Don't you know an invisible hand will automatically adjust the market?

 

[circ]

Pretty sad considering their last game was shit.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

Why else would he care so much that he wishes the used game market would get stabbed in the heart? Why else would he bring up Obsidian's financial problems?

He cares because MONEY.

Because people attributed greed to him. And financial frustration/having to fire good people was what brought him to research about stuff like this in the first place. Read the damn E-Mail.

But there IS NO MONEY.

Two possible options that remotly make sense.

- He has the opinion because of acquitances (outside of Obsidian) which actually ARE directly affected by it.

- Its a moral based opinion, having seen through his own position in the industry worse things about Gamestop that even we know about.

But attributing Money to it when THERE IS NONE. Is stupid. The only thing they could care about is well beeing of the publisher + how many units sold to get contracts.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Certain people would like to see a future where selling used games is either a) impossible or b) considered piracy.

And those people deserve to burn in hell.

Wikipedia quoting:
Gamestop has frequently been criticized by game developers and publishers for the retailing of used game titles.[25] By reselling used copies at a small discount on the same shelf space as new copies of the game, it is argued that Gamestop is taking profits directly from organizations such as developers and publishers which are solely dependent on their intellectual property for revenue. The motion picture industry prohibits selling second-hand copies of films in the same retail space as new, full-priced copies of films, but for the game industry there are no such established protections. In effect, this means that companies such as GameStop can resell used copies of a game within days of the title's release and keep all of the profit, thereby cutting directly into the critical initial sales which would otherwise go to publishers and developers.

I understand what he is talking about now.

If they sell second hand games retail, then developers should demand a share of those sales. Second hand books are not sold in retail stores, they are sold in dusty second hand stores.

Imagine if the big bookstore chains did the same to authors? There would be little reason to write books, because authors would be bypassed and store owners would take the profits.

IMO what Gamestop are doing is legal theft.

to both the quote and your response

 

[Roguey]

If Obsidian doesn't like Gamestop cutting into sales so much they should:

-Make "better" games. They need to deliver more lasting value to avoid a hit to sales from the Gamestop effect. I go to Gamestop occasionally to get cheap games. Guess what I see them selling a lot of? Obsidian (and close "peers") games. Guess what I don't see a bevy of for cheap? Recent Bioware, Bethesda, Bungie, Epic, and all sorts of other big developer's titles. People probably won't be trading in Rimjob like they will Dung Siege or Alpha Brotocol. New Vegas was probably a step in the right direction as far as this goes. If Obsidian did more stuff like that, then Gamestop might not be such a problem.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/obsidian-o ... es-6343997

FU: Yeah, so one of the recent issues is not putting the full game in the package and requiring downloadable content to move on. Also, including DLC in the package that will have to be repurchased for secondhand buyers. I think you have to go in and forget those gimmicks, and say, "How do I make them want to keep the game on the shelf?" I think each genre has a way to do it. Battlefield and Call of Duty have it in multiplayer with maps, rankings, leveling up, and unlocks. There are different things, but the idea is making people feel, "I want to keep on playing it."

With a role-playing game, it is the same thing. We come up with things to make players want to keep on playing it. It was never developed this way, but it's funny how it has become a way to do this. By having a good and evil track, like Knights of the Old Republic II, I can play as a light or dark Jedi. I may play through as a light Jedi, but I know that I could play through as a dark Jedi. So I think, "I'm gonna do that some day." So I put it back on my shelf and I don't take it back to GameStop. If I play Fallout: New Vegas for 50 hours, but there are all these other quests, and there's this whole other area I didn't go to, and online there are people talking about all these things that you could have done all these different ways, I'll feel like "Wow, I could play this game again," because there is all this stuff I didn't get. And knowing that, publishers announce DLC plans the day the game comes out. And now, as a player who hasn't experienced everything yet, I know there are these new stories, and I'm going to be able to level up my character and get better stuff, be more of a hero. The game is going to go back on my shelf, not back to GameStop.

For once Feargus isn't the one putting his foot in his mouth.

 

[Walkin' Dude]

Don't you know an invisible hand will automatically adjust the market?

That is exactly what is happening. The market is saying "Your games are overpriced," and MCA is whining because he does not like what the market is saying.

 

[Davaris]

to both the quote and your response

Back at ya. Make your case or don't bother.