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Game News Colony Ship RPG Update #10: Companions Overview

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,977
Location
Russia
I presented 4 best gunmen who might join you. These are top tier guys, men who kill for a living or to stay alive. They survived where countless others have not. They aren't nice and friendly guys looking for a hug or a guy to bond with and follow everywhere.
If they are so hard to get and travel with, does that mean player will actually need best gunmen around? What will justify existence of risky companions? Is it extra content, or the fact that player actually won't be able to solo everything like in AoD?

If you want the top tier guys, you'd have to deal with their shit and it would take a lot more than saying the right things Obsidian style.
For all their faults (like not being able to keep up with games from 1998 where characters leave group if you fuck up and fight each other), Obsidian aren't bad at balancing party composition - having characters like Eder and Durance in same game is a good thing.

Although I'd probably look at JA2 for inspiration when hiring "low tier" and "top tier".

A politician would be useless in a fight so why bother to recruit someone like that (and if one could recruit a politician I would think he would also be able to recruit someone more competent in a fight). Unless it was an abstract example to make a point.
Making non-combat character very useful is not impossible although not trivial either. RPGs just don't bother trying.
 
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garren

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
2,045
Location
Grue-Infested Darkness
Can you bluff factions when there's someone with you who hates them? For example, can you agree to do something for the church to get access to their resources maybe, and tell the wastelander that it's just a bluff so he wont turn on you (since you haven't actually done anything for them yet)? I mean, I guess what I'm trying to say is that do NPCs recognize that you might fake alliance to someone, and not just ragequit the party or turn on you? Maybe a way to let them know beforehand, see if they're willing to play along.

I mean, not everyone will go along with your games, but it would be cool if there's some who might do so up to a certain point (and be mightily pissed if you actually then betray their trust).
 
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Goral

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
3,571
Location
Poland
Making non-combat character very useful is not impossible although not trivial either.
A good talker needs some serious backup of a powerful faction, otherwise his words mean nothing. In AoD it was the merchant guild or a House of a lord or you were a "magician" so it somewhat made sense especially since we were the only ones. In CSG I just don't see how someone with so good ties would join us and risk his life when he could do the same behind the scene, trying to influence others without the risk of being shot. Plus to recruit someone like that we would need some serious charisma and persuasion but in that case what would we need him for? Unless his recruitment would be something along the lines "hey, I was just looking for bodyguards like you, people I know nothing about and whom I can't trust, let me go with you" or "hey, you're a politician too, let's cooperate and become a president and VP"... Knowing VD he could make it much more believable but it would still be implausible IMO and if you would like to have a charismatic and silver-tongued character you would have to create him yourself.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,977
Location
Russia
Plus to recruit someone like that we would need some serious charisma and persuasion but in that case what would we need him for?
Maybe it's you whom will be recruited by him instead due to his high charisma and your low int.

Sure, it's not easy, but the potential for these sort of characters if they actually use their skills (together with you/against you/make you actually pass checks against skills often not used by npcs in rpgs) to change the game and deconstruct rpg meta is much higher than of characters who just leave or shoot you.

roles4.jpg
 

Iluvcheezcake

Prophet
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
1,840
Location
Le Balkans
I really like the idea about the customizable robot with options depending on character skills.

VD, will there be a possibility to alter/influence other NPC's skills n stats (i.e. PST) through hard dialogue checks?
 

Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
In Tyranny when you are joined by certain fighter Barrick, who is member of Disfavoured faction, you can go and murder Disfavoured officers. Bonus points for betraying them and killing same person who introduced Barrick to you and asked him to join you. Also Barrick is portraited as true fighter, who is totally loyal to his faction.

He does object at one point, but you can just choose right dialogue choice (there is no check to succeed).


I am not sure why dear Codexers in this thread complain, you want this type of companions?
 

Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
This one.

http://tyranny.wiki.fextralife.com/Barik

"Barik is at Disfavored camp, next to Iron Marshal Erenyos. You can recruit him once you have meet the Archons and ready to help Disfavored in The Battle of Echocall Crossing"


Well, a bit later at this Battle you kill said ron Marshal Erenyos and Barik dont even objects, he takes part in battle. And its not like you are attacked by them or something, no you are one betraying said faction and you are the one to make decision to fight them.
 

Kem0sabe

Arcane
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
13,216
Location
Azores Islands
The companions and the philosophy behind their design sound awesome.

Hopefully romance will be tuned down to a minimum...
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Of course even a character with maxed out charisma who is a very clever manipulator shouldn't (and wouldn't) realistically be able to sway a zealot like The Preacher away from his beliefs. That makes perfect sense. However, would high charisma, social skills and some intelligence offer some leeway in terms of what they might find tolerable from you? So, for example, maybe being able to talk down a paranoid psycho like the Gunfighter down in a situation where he becomes suspicious of you or someone around you.
Yes (otherwise it's game-over for non-combat oriented characters). Basically, you won't be able to change people who travel with you but if your skills are high enough you will be able to "handle" them where it makes sense. The Colonel won't become loyal and trustworthy but you can keep him on your side if he thinks that yours is a better deal, etc.

I presented 4 best gunmen who might join you. These are top tier guys, men who kill for a living or to stay alive. They survived where countless others have not. They aren't nice and friendly guys looking for a hug or a guy to bond with and follow everywhere.
If they are so hard to get and travel with, does that mean player will actually need best gunmen around? What will justify existence of risky companions? Is it extra content, or the fact that player actually won't be able to solo everything like in AoD?
Reason #1 - if you want to fight your way through the game, you will need all the firepower and skill you can handle. Reason #2 - optional content these guys bring to the table. Reason #3 - role-playing/different experience.

But again - they aren't hard to get and they aren't hard to travel with, provided you hire them for the right reasons and resists the urge to fuck them over and/or do what you want to do without giving a fuck about what they want to do.

Can you bluff factions when there's someone with you who hates them? For example, can you agree to do something for the church to get access to their resources maybe, and tell the wastelander that it's just a bluff so he wont turn on you (since you haven't actually done anything for them yet)? I mean, I guess what I'm trying to say is that do NPCs recognize that you might fake alliance to someone, and not just ragequit the party or turn on you? Maybe a way to let them know beforehand, see if they're willing to play along.
The structure is somewhat different.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,7181.0.html

Before we talk about the CSG’s main quest design, let’s talk about the AoD’s main quest to illustrate some points without spoiling anything.

"The main quest started vague – "go I know not where, bring back I know not what", and then the faction quests took over as the meat of the game. Essentially, the game wasn’t about finding the temple but instead working for the factions and slowly uncovering what happened in the past. By the time you’ve visited all 3 cities and learned what you can about the factions, the war, and the gods, you know where the temple is and you're ready to make your choice. That fairly important choice affects the ending slides, but not gameplay because the game is almost over at this point.

Naturally, we want to do better. So in the CSG we’ll get rid of the vagueness, move the main quest to the center stage, push the factions’ quests back, and allow you to make key choices earlier and thus enjoy the consequences earlier.

It will start simple – while scavenging you stumble upon something clearly valuable, a long-forgotten device that wasn’t meant to be used until the ship lands (but can be used in-flight). Not being an expert on such things, you need to know exactly what this thing is to figure out what one of the factions will pay for it, which is a good way to introduce you to the three main factions in Act 1, whereas in AoD the Noble Houses were introduced one Act at a time for storytelling reasons (escalating events):

Once you know what that device is (at about 30% of the game), you’ll offer it to the faction of your choice, at which point your relationship with the other factions will go down, introducing an aspect we didn’t really touch in AoD – factions acting against you, attacking your base of operations, and turning locations under their influence against you, which will boost replayability.

At about 70% of the game, you might realize (via learning more about the ship if you’re smart enough) that what you’re doing might not necessary be what’s best for the ship (or you personally) and get an option to do things in a very different, "fuck all factions" way. The remaining 30% of the game will be dedicated to each path within this fork, presenting different challenges and choices. So far, that’s 3 'working for a faction' paths, 3 'fuck 'em' paths, and 7 different endings without counting permutations.

This way you’ll get to play through your key decisions, instead of being told about what happened next in the slides. Obviously, the slides will still be there but gameplay-to-slides ratio will be different."

I really like the idea about the customizable robot with options depending on character skills.

VD, will there be a possibility to alter/influence other NPC's skills n stats (i.e. PST) through hard dialogue checks?
Undecided. It made sense in PST but I'm not sure it would work as well in this game. Right now your "reward" for having deep conversations (loaded with stat- and skill-checks) with your party members is unique and powerful feats.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
We used the same skeleton for both males and females, which created the tranny effect. The model didn't help either. Hopefully you'll be pleasantly surprised by the CSG models and animations.
 

Heretic

Cipher
Joined
Dec 1, 2015
Messages
844
Will the relationships with the party members develop? For example will you be able to sway the preacher with actions (saving his life), facts (you learn some dark secret about the Church), words (charisma)? Can you become friends eg. through shared traumatic experience so that he would hesitate before shooting you if you betray his faction?

Will you be able to mold the companions a little bit during the playthrough, or is their agenda set in stone?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Will the relationships with the party members develop?
Yes but in a way you think.

For example will you be able to sway the preacher with actions (saving his life), facts (you learn some dark secret about the Church), words (charisma)? Can you become friends eg. through shared traumatic experience so that he would hesitate before shooting you if you betray his faction?
That's pure Hollywood, so absolutely haram. For religious fanatics, religion is a big fucking deal and no facts or words would make even a small dent in the preacher's faith.

Will you be able to mold the companions a little bit during the playthrough, or is their agenda set in stone?
Mold? No. Manipulate? Yes.
 

Aenra

Guest
Yes but in a way you think

I think you forgot a 'not' there?
Cause otherwise, you just admitted to romances!!11! And then maybe a full interakshun sequel with lots of emoshuns and if that goes well too maybe a position as digital games distributor!

Which is all very great, assuming you can survive the burning at the stake :D
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
A politician would be useless in a fight so why bother to recruit someone like that (and if one could recruit a politician I would think he would also be able to recruit someone more competent in a fight). Unless it was an abstract example to make a point.
Making non-combat character very useful is not impossible although not trivial either. RPGs just don't bother trying.

I sometimes think developers take the wrong lesson from MCA's experience with Myron being underused compared to his hilariousness:

1. It's a game that massively rewards 'low-combat' builds, where you have just enough combat skill to survive while pumping the non-combat stats/skills. You get rewarded with a ton more content, and have companions/workarounds that still let you do almost all the combat stuff early-game. By mid to late game, the extra content and xp has got to the point where you've got functionally max sci/speech/etc and can pump your chosen combat skill such that you often overtake dedicated 'combat builds'. And if you're going a combat build, you almost certainly have low charisma (Myron's the only genuine 'non-combat-skill' follower, and he arrives a fair way into the game, no real benefits to companions if you're a combat build), and won't have room for Myron when you reach him. Either way, you aren't going to get use out his science skill like you might in a AoD style game that really punishes non-combat builds to the point where there could be a motivation to go mostly combat, with just enough cha to get a scientist/talkie companion or two.

2. Almost everyone took some thief or thief-hybrid along in BG/BG2 for their non-combat benefits. I think the lesson shouldn't be "don't make a companion who isn't a good combat contributor", but rather "don't make a character who has nothing fun and useful to do in combat, when combat is most of your gameplay". So long as the character isn't boring dead-weight with no options during combat, it doesn't need to be on par with the rest of the party.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
Will the relationships with the party members develop?
Yes but in a way you think.

For example will you be able to sway the preacher with actions (saving his life), facts (you learn some dark secret about the Church), words (charisma)? Can you become friends eg. through shared traumatic experience so that he would hesitate before shooting you if you betray his faction?
That's pure Hollywood, so absolutely haram. For religious fanatics, religion is a big fucking deal and no facts or words would make even a small dent in the preacher's faith.

Will you be able to mold the companions a little bit during the playthrough, or is their agenda set in stone?
Mold? No. Manipulate? Yes.

Religion's a strange one though. It's only a small step for a Martin Luther type to go from "rabidly devout catholic" to nailing a list of the church's hypocrisies/failings on the temple door. He just has to become convinced that the organisation is failing to meet his/its own standards, and suddenly the very same motivations that made him so loyal are now demanding that he break away and 'restore the true faith'.

Of course, once unleashed (no longer subject to an organisation that has to navigate the political/social realities of its situation), those guys tend to become a lot more fanatical, and a lot of 'moderates' in the church end up in mass graves...

That could be a fun twist. Convince the guy of the church's hypocrisies until he breaks away, and then watch in horror as he 'cleanses' the place and institutes a far more puritanical/militant order:)
 
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xantrius

Liturgist
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
228
Location
Ascending (Denmark)
Concerning the party interaction. So the player-character is a somewhat cynical person, in his/hers semi-blankslateness like in the Age of Decadence I take it? So therefore the only logical thing to do in relation to the party members are to manipulate and not mold them?

Some people would perhaps see all human interaction as fundamentally being manipulation, or it is my silly prejudice. Viktor Frankl a psychiatrist and holocaust survivor wrote a book--"Man's search for meaning"(English title)-- about his imprisonment in a concentration camp. At one point he decided to give his insufficient meal /piece of bread to his fellow prisoners, as some of them they'd given up hope and was about to commit passive suicide. Through this act of compassion they got back some shred of hope and for some of them it was enough that they could manage to survive the following years in the camp. If we say that he was Christian that acted, as he did because it is a sin against God to commit suicide. Whether Frankl was a Christian he wouldn't say that he manipulated them. Nor would any humanist or Aristotle / Plato fanboy that does the good for (the sake of) the good itself. I'd reckon.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Concerning the party interaction. So the player-character is a somewhat cynical person, in his/hers semi-blankslateness like in the Age of Decadence I take it?
Not necessarily. Your personality and personal beliefs will be defined when you create your characters and answer some questions (more on that later).

So therefore the only logical thing to do in relation to the party members are to manipulate and not mold them?
Molding is a god-like trait. You look upon your followers, don't like what you see and start "terraforming" them to make their personalities more to your liking. How many people are capable of such a feat? So you have twp options: accept your party members' "shortcomings" and work around them or manipulate them to get what you need (within reasons).

Some people would perhaps see all human interaction as fundamentally being manipulation, or it is my silly prejudice.
I guess it depends on how we define being manipulative. Many things we do (including acts of kindness like the one you describe) affect people and make them more willing to do something for you. Does it mean that every act of kindness is a manipulation? I don't think so.
 

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