Game News Colony Ship Update #34: Combat Demo Update - New Screenshots

[Deleted Member 22431]

the best thing lurker king could do to help promotion of the game is stop posting in defense of ITS so that people stop cringing at his dumbass posts and associate them in any way with the games

Oh crap! I think I going to ruin the game then.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Looks interesting, but will this take the AoD route which gates off content into separate "paths" locked by stat checks?

It's sad when you get to the point where even here in the Codex C&C it's seen as "gated content."

C&C has to be meaningful in order to be legitimate. AoD has a meaningful character creation process but the game's overall difficulty means that certain builds are effectively enforced once character generation is over. It would be the same as saying that using the bathroom and wetting the bed is a form of C&C. You theoretically have a choice in the matter but in reality everyone's use of the bathroom is enforced, making the option effectively meaningless.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

The common sense that every cRPG player worth of its salt say in public:

Players’ options should be determined by stats and skills.

cRPGs should embrace C&C. You can’t see all the content in one playthrough.


What they really want, but can't say without sounding hypocrites:

I want the illusion of character building. Stats and skills should matter only in combat. You should be able to make certain choices without stats and skills.

The gameworld should be gamey because the only thing that matters is the players’ precious ego. Stats and skills shouldn’t get in the way of players fulfilment.

 

[True Ukrainian]

A player's options should be determined by stats and skills. But that can only be considered as legitimate C&C if the player has an actual choice in skill allocation. Using AoD as an example, once the player makes their choices at character creation, further skill allocation is enforced by the game's difficulty. Which is why I use the term "paths", the game sets the player on a path once character generation is complete.

Not that there is a problem with that, it is a legitimate means of structuring the game. However, the only actual choice the player makes is at character generation. Any attempt at veering from the path set by the game is the equivalent of wetting the bed, the option is there but its messy and pointless.

 

[Black Angel]

C&C has to be meaningful in order to be legitimate. AoD has a meaningful character creation process but the game's overall difficulty means that certain builds are effectively enforced once character generation is over.

Wtf are you on about? "certain builds are effectively enforced once chargen is over"? Did you mean you want to stray away from your character build archetype and be able to do something else other than what you build's purpose should be?

A player's options should be determined by stats and skills. But that can only be considered as legitimate C&C if the player has an actual choice in skill allocation. Using AoD as an example, once the player makes their choices at character creation, further skill allocation is enforced by the game's difficulty. Which is why I use the term "paths", the game sets the player on a path once character generation is complete.

Not that there is a problem with that, it is a legitimate means of structuring the game. However, the only actual choice the player makes is at character generation. Any attempt at veering from the path set by the game is the equivalent of wetting the bed, the option is there but its messy and pointless.

You're implying the game doesn't have multiple solution, and once again thinking the game for some reason should, for the sake of making example, let a talker character fight the fight that only a combat-centric character could win. While the template the game use to provide the players with choices is rather limited and inferior compared to many other RPGs out there, that doesn't mean the game doesn't have multiple solution and that the options to veer away from the path set is "messy and pointless". If what you're saying is true, then a talky Thief or an Assassin with interest in lore or even a Praetor build (which is the ultimate hybrid archetype of the game IMO) shouldn't even be possible to play.

Unless what you mean with "attempt at veering from the path" is actually that you want to try talking out of combat encounters to gain civic SPs and then turn around to kill them all to gain combat XPs, then I'll just say that's dumb.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Counterpoint. Early in the merc quest line you get the option of joining the thieves even though such a choice would cause you to stray from your build. The game presents you with a choice akin to wetting the bed, its there but ultimately why would you do it?

Midway through the assassin quest line you have to infiltrate the slums with an impersonate check. There is no option other than using impersonate. If you cannot pass the check, you have to fail the stat check and brute force your way out. The game has an idea on how its "meant" to be played rather than allowing you to veer from the path using other skills to solve the problem such as stealth or a straight out assault on the patrol.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Counterpoint. Early in the merc quest line you get the option of joining the thieves even though such a choice would cause you to stray from your build. The game presents you with a choice akin to wetting the bed, its there but ultimately why would you do it?

To play fighter/thief. You can fight your way through the thieves questline.

Midway through the assassin quest line you have to infiltrate the slums with an impersonate check. There is no option other than using impersonate.

You can pay a beggar to take you past the guards checkpoint and to the temple.

 

[Black Angel]

Counterpoint. Early in the merc quest line you get the option of joining the thieves even though such a choice would cause you to stray from your build. The game presents you with a choice akin to wetting the bed, its there but ultimately why would you do it?

Have you tried starting a Thief questline as a character with decent amount of combat abilities aside from barely enough investment in thievery skills needed to pass that first quest? It's called being a literal street thug. From what I remember, you could pass the quests after that, the same quests that'll be available to you at that point as a Merc, with combat solution.

Midway through the assassin quest line you have to infiltrate the slums with an impersonate check. There is no option other than using impersonate. If you cannot pass the check, you have to fail the stat check and brute force your way out. The game has an idea on how its "meant" to be played rather than allowing you to veer from the path using other skills to solve the problem such as stealth or a straight out assault on the patrol.

"If you cannot pass the check, you have to fail the stat check and brute force your way out."

"....allowing you to veer from the path using other skills to solve the problem such as stealth or a straight out assault on the patrol."

Don't contradict yourself there, mate. A straight out assault on the patrol is practically brute forcing your way out of there. You could fail impersonate check on purpose if you're confident in your combat abilites. Besides, if you don't have decent investment in impersonate, then how the hell are you gonna get past that encounter, other than paying a beggar? If you read the skill recommendation highlighted during character creation, Impersonate is one of the skills highlighted when you choose Assassin as your starting class, so you should know you would need to invest some points in them.
Also, if you pay attention, the entire slums area are the Forty Thieves guild territory, so it makes sense no one other than them can actually sneak through that area properly. It's not like Teron Palace full of only bored-out-of-their-mind, heavily armored guards, but a huge section of the biggest city with a lot of unknowable corners and abandoned buildings, people vigilant for signs of intruders lurking behind them all.

 

[True Ukrainian]

By saying that infiltrating Teron palace is easier going than infiltrating the slums is not a particularly reasonable proposition. That would be the equivalent of saying that sneaking up on Trump/Xi/Putin/The Queen of England in their official residence, surrounded by bored out of their mind guards, is easier than sneaking through the former walled city of Hong Kong/chicago gangland/a favela. I doubt that anybody irl is going to agree with that statement.

If an assassin can sneak right up to an actual head of state without issue, claiming that gang bangers prevent the assassin from using stealth instead of the trained soldiers or bodyguards is again not particularly reasonable.

The point about failing the impersonate check on purpose goes back to the issue of legitimate C&C. If I remember correctly, the game railroads you into the impersonate check. Choices are only granted once you are in front of the patrol. If you cannot pass the check, you eat a penalty either in the form of losing gold or starting a fight without any armor on.

The assassin, in character, knowing that he has no skill in impersonate, is forced into a decision which he would not have ever made. This is an assassin, that can sneak up on a head of state. Yet the stealth option is not present at the beginning of the quest. This is an assassin that can go toe to toe with imperial guards. Yet the option to screw the disguise and go in loaded for bear is not there. Yes the game presents choices, but in cases like this (which are a minority I admit) your character's skills and history suddenly do not matter.

The issue about "knowing" to invest in impersonate just proves the point about veering from the path. The game has the idea that a proper assassin is skilled in impersonate. Choosing not to invest in that skill and instead in something else, ie veering from the path, forces the player to brute force their way through rather than deploying their skills in a useful manner.

 

[Black Angel]

By saying that infiltrating Teron palace is easier going than infiltrating the slums is not a particularly reasonable proposition. That would be the equivalent of saying that sneaking up on Trump/Xi/Putin/The Queen of England in their official residence, surrounded by bored out of their mind guards, is easier than sneaking through the former walled city of Hong Kong/chicago gangland/a favela. I doubt that anybody irl is going to agree with that statement.

If an assassin can sneak right up to an actual head of state without issue, claiming that gang bangers prevent the assassin from using stealth instead of the trained soldiers or bodyguards is again not particularly reasonable.

You're comparing current time, real-life situation to a post-apocalyptic setting where literally everyone is out to stab their own neighbors to fulfill their selfish desires. Have you paid attention to the lore and narrative of the game? It's a world where civilization is in a state of indefinite stagnation. The Great Houses are losing their powers, while the other factions are growing from either being left alone (The Imperial Guards) or leeching off the Great Houses's power (The Thief, Assassin, and Merchant's Guild). Introduction to arriving in Maadoran describes it perfectly:

It shouldn't be hard to comprehend how the Forty Thieves Guild are able to protect their territory so tightly, not to mention it's completely unfamiliar territory too huge for your character. I mean, have you tried playing as a Praetor, telling Serenas (Gaelius's nephew) to try and torch the Slums? Instead of the Aurelian soldiers taking over, likely what you'll think will happen if choose that option, it instead triggers whole chaos that swallows the entire city of Maadoran. That's how ferocious the Forty Thieves guild of Maadoran, is.

The point about failing the impersonate check on purpose goes back to the issue of legitimate C&C. If I remember correctly, the game railroads you into the impersonate check. Choices are only granted once you are in front of the patrol. If you cannot pass the check, you eat a penalty either in the form of losing gold or starting a fight without any armor on.

How is this an issue of legitimate C&C? The game straight up recommended you to invest in Impersonate, you decided not to, so now you face the consequence of having to use whatever means you actually have in your arsenal from compensating your lack of investment in Impersonate, either by paying a beggar to lead the way or just face them with pure combat skills.

The assassin, in character, knowing that he has no skill in impersonate, is forced into a decision which he would not have ever made. This is an assassin, that can sneak up on a head of state. Yet the stealth option is not present at the beginning of the quest. This is an assassin that can go toe to toe with imperial guards. Yet the option to screw the disguise and go in loaded for bear is not there. Yes the game presents choices, but in cases like this (which are a minority I admit) your character's skills and history suddenly do not matter.

Except, again, the Slums is a completely alien territory belonging to another guild that's may be as big or even bigger than the Assassin's guild. While the lack of stealth option could be from the root cause of the whole game's system not allowing you to manually activate stealth, the narrative of this sequence make sense. If you try to stealth your way through the Slums, an unknown territory, of which it's choke full of the Forty Thieves guild members likely as skilled as you or even better in subterfuge, you'd likely ended up getting stabbed in the back instead, or have to face another combat encounter anyway. Hence why the game's presented solution for this sequence in the first place is to check for your Impersonate skill, because it's the only way to fool the thieves, who, again, are likely as skilled or even better than your character at subterfuge.

The issue about "knowing" to invest in impersonate just proves the point about veering from the path. The game has the idea that a proper assassin is skilled in impersonate. Choosing not to invest in that skill and instead in something else, ie veering from the path, forces the player to brute force their way through rather than deploying their skills in a useful manner.

You're implying playing a fully combat focused Assassin is not possible, here. And therefore, trying to play a full combat Assassin means not deploying their skills in a useful manner. It's akin to saying how, during Merchant playthrough, you can't go and assassinate that visiting merchant in the inn by yourself, and instead having to persuade and pay an assassin.

I'm not saying AoD's system is perfect, but saying things like "not allowing you to veer off from the path" and "deploying their skills in a 'useful' manner" just reeks of you wanting to do anything you want, regardless of whether or not it makes sense from the game's narrative standpoint, without meaningful consequences biting you back in the ass.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The point about failing the impersonate check on purpose goes back to the issue of legitimate C&C. If I remember correctly, the game railroads you into the impersonate check. Choices are only granted once you are in front of the patrol. If you cannot pass the check, you eat a penalty either in the form of losing gold or starting a fight without any armor on.

No. You have two options in the first node of that quest: either try to blend in or look for a local guide.

The assassin, in character, knowing that he has no skill in impersonate, is forced into a decision which he would not have ever made.

... should go look for that guide.

This is an assassin, that can sneak up on a head of state.

Antidas isn't really a head of state and his manor isn't a fortress or even a palace. More importantly though, nobody's expecting you and Antidas has no reason to worry about anything. In comparison, Levir knows someone will be coming for that gold, so his people are watching the streets and sneaking in without being spotted shouldn't really be an option. Had Antidas known you're coming, he would have locked his manor tighter than a drum, in which case sneaking in would no longer be an option either.

PS. I'm not saying it's great design, just explaining the reasons and pointing out that we did try to avoid any single-skill chock-points. We probably should have offered a stealth option but raised the check high to reflect the difficulty of the task.

 

[Tigranes]

It's always very easy to take the many different possibilities, plausible scenarios, what-ifs, assumptions, maybes and should-haves to concoct an argument that X panning out this way is just ridiculous or Y really should have happened instead.

 

[ScrotumBroth]

Vault Dweller Pardon if this was already answered, but will there be death and critical hit character animations, like in original Fallouts? It was really satisfying to watch enemies dance from submachine gun burst fire, or making torso holes with rifles, for example.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Most likely. Meaning custom death animations are planned but so far it's a low priority task.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Thanks for the responses. Despite the occasional rough patch I generally enjoyed AoD which is why this current project has me interested. I just hope that single skill choke points are avoided as vault dweller said.