CRPG Romance and the Wussification of America

[Shoelip]

This thread is disturbing on so many levels.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I don't care for romances in CRPGs. It's one of those things I believe my characters can do without and under the constraints that are generally imposed in most narratives, it often turns to be an event lacking in plausibility. Nonetheless, it is a valid option and if done correctly can open other roleplaying options for the PC.

Unfortunately they come off as entirely inadequate in writing, pacing and overall design. They happen primarily because a character in the party has the CHARNAME tag on, and that's where I think problems start. There is no sense that the PC has done anything in particular to impress the romantic other, and if he did we can never tell.

While it's likely that romance options are often downplayed and made into an abstraction or into a simplified element like other CRPGs elements when compared to what one would find in reality, the lack of things like basic interaction between the people involved is rather blatant and for the lack of a better word, pants. It's not so much the lack of realism as pointed in the thread Baphomet linked to (although these options would be valid and curiously enough, have been implemented in Baldur's Gate 2 via a Flirt Pack Mod or somesuch by modders) but the lack of anything that suggests a relationship exists. They're time-triggered dialogue trees that count how many chances you have of scoring with FEMALE_BIMBO_NPC, and that's just what they feel like.

Romances are also very much created and carried out as if in a vacuum, as if only the PC and ROMANCE_OPTION#1 were the only members in the party capable of protagonism, romantic ideals, reactions, attraction and so on. The PC is a dumbass fighter with a 3 in Intelligence, a 4 in Wisdom, a 3 in Charisma, there's never any mention of him ever tending to his personal higyene, he has the highest bodycount in the party, never gives money to the poor, and is only adventuring for shiny loot. Why is the well informed, brazen, independent, head strong and no nonsense female druid falling for the PC? Why not for the devout and loyal Cleric, the charming and silver tongued Bard, or hell, even the opportunist but reliable Mage? Again, no CHARNAME tag.

It's also not taken into account how the PC performs in battle. Relationships are also built through actions and inactions, not only words. Split second reactions, such as getting in the way of an arrow that was poised to hit the PC's love interest, are never counted. Combat is combat and no matter how many times you save your romantic partner from certain death, they'll never thank you for it. Nor will they show any kind of concern that you're a poor leader and sent about 3 party members into a fiery deathtrap, or that you've got the blood of 2000+ enemies in your hands, or that you may have doomed an entire village, nor any such things.

They're static and uninteresting at best, poor fan fiction designed for teens masturbating and crying in the dark at worst.

 

[Trash]

^^^^ Applauds.

Still, romance can be done in a game. I remember in dead rising you could (at the start of the game) reunite an old married couple that had lost each other. The short scene when they were brought together was actually rather touching. Still, anything like the romances in games like bg2 and kotor felt tackey and shallow. Kinda like role-player argues above.

 

[crufty]

Agree its almost impossible to do right, but as to why they are in games--romances in pnp rpg land occur relatively often, so why not computer games? I'd rather have crappy romances then a giant compass.

 

[HanoverF]

Leisure Suit Larry had the best mos realistic romances:

Fall for a girl

Girl has outrageous demands

Jump through hoops to fufil them

You get fucked (and not in the good way)

 

[kris]

<i>But why do most Roleplay Games which have "romance plots" lack some realistic scenes such as "Hugging", "Kissing", "Holding Hands", "Sitting close together" or "stroking the hair or face while talking".</i>

Perhaps the half-orc claims her as a mate, tries to rape her, etc.

Aahhh. Another rapemod is brought to life, team up with Volourn and I am sure it can be done in a very mature way.

I find it quite clear why you feel distasted by such horrible acts like "kissing" and "holding hands".

 

[kris]

Unfortunately they come off as entirely inadequate in writing, pacing and overall design. They happen primarily because a character in the party has the CHARNAME tag on, and that's where I think problems start. There is no sense that the PC has done anything in particular to impress the romantic other, and if he did we can never tell.

While it's likely that romance options are often downplayed and made into an abstraction or into a simplified element like other CRPGs elements when compared to what one would find in reality, the lack of things like basic interaction between the people involved is rather blatant and for the lack of a better word, pants. Romances are also very much created and carried out as if in a vacuum, as if only the PC and ROMANCE_OPTION#1 were the only members in the party capable of protagonism, romantic ideals, reactions, attraction and so on.

I would say the best done romance is the one in KOTOR with Bastila. Of course that is only true if you are a good-doing male Revan. Its easy to see why it would be happening then. It is good since it is carefully tied into the story of the game, in some ways taking cues to Japanese RPGs (I think, I have a lack of experiences with them in general). Lets just forget that you supposedly is a jedi master that starts as lvl1. :D

Otherwise this is about time and effort. The things you mentioned in your post have been done to some extent in games, there are ability checks (charisma), there are race checks (in Baldurs2 at least) and party members are not completly oblivious to the thing. It comes down to time and money, as can be seen especially in the bioware forums people demand SEVERAL different characters to romance, they also demand same sex romances and some want several concurrent ones. To write in all those things you mentioned and/or having several will take enough resources for it being a big game within the game.

 

[whitemithrandir]

hmm, that prompted me to check out "Volourn" on urban dictionary. I knew it'd be there.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=volourn


Anyways, on topic...I agree that romance is usually handled in a retarded way. But, that's just like in most movies, where the same plot is rehashed over and over again due to a lack of creativity. The problem is, again, bad writers. Most RPGs lack proper writers.

Haha! oh man, I remember submitting that like a year ago.

 

[AlanC9]

I'm pretty much with kris here. Given the realities of resource availability, you're just not gong to see romance plots done right. But since players do want this sort of thing, you're not going to see them skipped either.

From what I've seen, the gender balance of players who request this sort of thing seems to approximate the gender balance of the playerbase. However, the players who would prefer romances to be left out seem to be exclusively male.

.... the lack of things like basic interaction between the people involved is rather blatant and for the lack of a better word, pants.

Anyone know where this slang use of "pants" comes from? I've seen it online fairly often, but I've never heard it IRL. Is it a regional thing, or am I in the wrong demographic?>

 

[Zomg]

I'd like to see an RPG where you start off married or so, without having to awkwardly write the genesis of the relationship (which is hard as shit to do in any case, and it's even harder to write a quasi-realistic romance inside of the usual preposterously mythic story.

 

[bozia2012]

Well, interactions with party members are something that adds depth to the game (and are a must to all dialogue heavy titles like Torment or KotoR2). Romances are the least needed feature. What I'm thinking about are conflicts between party members (not the lame BG2 way) and overall trouble to keep them together and focused on the goal. Everyone in the party should have his own agenda, prejudices etc. (and events like someone leaving party after an agrument and coming back (or not) after some time or refusing to do something should be not-so-uncommon). I also look forward to some teacher-student/student-teacher interactions (and NOT the Teh chosen one-follower fashion), rivalry or hell even father-son relationship. Everyone also should have his dirty secrets. When it all be done then romances could be better and not forced the way they are nowadays.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

To write in all those things you mentioned and/or having several will take enough resources for it being a big game within the game.

That's why I really don't care much for them. For the most part they are likely to remain underdeveloped paths which, due to both their nature and lack of development, I would prefer were all but ignored. Unfortunately, one voice against the hundreds of cries of elf rape fetishists who largely make up the fanbase of these games can't do a thing.

 

[FrancoTAU]

What, no Final Fantasy romances being brought up yet?

Even though I don't care if they have romance in or out, I think you can pull it off. The writing just isn't there most of the time. It seems a bit much to ask for a well written romance when the general game dialogue sucks for the most part.

You rarely even get a good friendship bond in most NPCs. Ultima 6/7 and maybe Torment were the only real times that I personally cared about party members as opposed to NPCs that mildly amuse me with one liners "ho, ho.. he mentioned the hamster again"

(Disclaimer - I haven't played KOTORs yet so if they have something going on than I wouldnt know)

 

[suibhne]

Franco, I'm not sure you can pull it off artfully - or, if so, that it wouldn't take so goddamn much effort, and be relevant to so few players, that it would be a terrible investment of resources. What's funny to me is that devs spend all this time developing romance sub-plots but very rarely develop real friendship sub-plots. Sure, I'd be fine seeing romance possibilities in an RPG, but I'd like to see other believable relationships first.

In any case, realistic and engaging relationships (positive or negative) should be easier to pull off between two NPCs, since devs have much more control over their personalities. And I'd wager they'd be just as interesting for many players, if not more so.

 

[Bradylama]

You rarely even get a good friendship bond in most NPCs. Ultima 6/7 and maybe Torment were the only real times that I personally cared about party members as opposed to NPCs that mildly amuse me with one liners "ho, ho.. he mentioned the hamster again"

I can't believe you forgot about Dogmeat.

He's ankle-biting forever now... in heaven.

 

[Blacklung]

Of course, because I had to shoot him in order to sneak into the church. I hated that part. One of those moments of "Well boy, it's been good...but it's time to go *tear**BLAM**Thump**sob*."

 

[Baphomet]

What's funny to me is that devs spend all this time developing romance sub-plots but very rarely develop real friendship sub-plots.

Now that seems really interesting. What exactly is a "friendship sub-plot?" In NWN2 I have henchmen with certain priorities, and I have the option of helping them out. Something tells me this is not what you refer to, though.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Friendship and animosity in regards to party NPCs and PCs had a small yet pretty fun system in Torment.

 

[zenslinger]

Anyone know where this slang use of "pants" comes from? I've seen it online fairly often, but I've never heard it IRL. Is it a regional thing, or am I in the wrong demographic?>

British people I know say it. Pants = US "underwear". Brits will laugh if you say, "Hey, nice pants" referring to their trousers.

What's so bad about underwear, I can't say, but it means that something is total crap or whatever.

 

[FrancoTAU]

I hear underpants just as much as I do underwear in the northeast US.

 

[Blacklung]

Yeah except if you are wearing underwear then it's usually assumed that it's the tighty whitey type of style. If you are sporting underpants then it's sort of up in the air as to whether you've got the former or boxers instead. Then you've got panties which are undergarments for women...or lingerie...

I think the only all encompassing word for the US, though very proper, would be undergarments.

Sheesh, talk about railroading.

As for the friend sub-plot. Yeah I can't really think of anything beyond those types of interactions. I mean you can sometimes sway romances into the friendship area like in BG2. I think the designers already assume there must be some sort of underlying ideas of friendship in parties where the companions are not too different in alignment (D&D games of course).

 

[Roqua]

From a NWN2 Forum thread:

<i>But why do most Roleplay Games which have "romance plots" lack some realistic scenes such as "Hugging", "Kissing", "Holding Hands", "Sitting close together" or "stroking the hair or face while talking".</i>

Arrrg ... why do people care about this? Romance plots are bad enough as is, but look at where the young'ans want it to go. This is what happens when emo is popular and tag is banned at schools people ... we end up with a nation of Ralph Wiggumses. Real men want "romance" options like "cum on her face" and "kill her for putting mayonaise on my sandwich."

Romance plots are the blind leading the blind. Game designers who have never been laid writing game content for game players who have never been laid. How will hand holding ever make these boring farces more realistic?

If you're going to put something like romance in a CRPG, make it interesting. I've got an idea I want to throw in a NWN2 mod. Your half-orc barbarian falls in love with the pretty elven bard. She is obviously not interested, and it becomes clear that either her sharp tongue and his quick temper are a dangerous combination. Perhaps the half-orc claims her as a mate, tries to rape her, etc. Perhaps you can make her see the brutish suitor's "good side." (A perfect quest for Gnomish pranksters.) Perhaps the bard will pretend to be interested in you, causing the barbarian to turn against the party.

Great points, I like you.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Great points, I like you.

Where have you been? A lot of idiocy that has popped up in your absence sore needs to be smacked down by the Roquasaurus.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Perhaps the half-orc claims her as a mate, tries to rape her, etc.

I'd buy it! VD! next game you make, you must include half-orc rape!.

 

[Rat Keeng]

I can only agree that game romances are worthless, but I believe that part of the reason often lies with the game's setting, particularly that fucking fantasy filth. "Mine eye has been observaseeing your perspiratious musculitis, and I must contemplatorize the ramifications of yonder doucheness", give me a fucking break. Like a god damn spoken word version of an opera, with a story based on a collection of shitty poetry, as if there's any other kind.

Not surprising that romances still appear in RPGs today though, the games seem to be generally moving towards representing a virtual world you can loose yourself in, more so than "merely" being a gaming experience that tells a story, one you can finish and put away. Fairly symptomatic for the industry in general, the bigger than ever market turning games into more of a lifestyle for people trying to fill their empty lives with *anything*, rather than just being a hobby and leisure time activity.

Setting up a shrine in an Oblivion chapel to commemorate your real-life mother's passing anyone?

 

[LCJr.]

Perhaps the half-orc claims her as a mate, tries to rape her, etc.

I'd buy it! VD! next game you make, you must include half-orc rape!.

If you're looking for rape you need to talk to Volourn. Where of course it will done in a tasteful and mature way. You know whenever I think of Volourn tasteful and mature are the first two words that come to mind. Well actually dumb and fuck are the first two words but tasteful and mature are a close third and fourth.