Current state of RPGs (Interview with Ken Rolston)

[Angelo85]

Old Codexer sits at bus station and starts to rant to a young dude on the current state of RPGs while beeing filmed by a hidden camera:

http://www.ausgamers.com/features/read/3106069

Some things he brings up seem to make sense, the part about the recorded dialog for example or 'You want these games to do what they can’t do' (I, too belong into this category I'm afraid ). Also the outlook to the future of RPGs is interesting. Seems like a cool dude.
Too bad his new game looks banal, shit, boring - not his fault though, except the part about faster paced CRPGs (last minute of the interview): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6p_uanjsd0

 

[zeitgeist]

And there I thought I'd never see a video interview with an actual transcript below ever again.

 

[Luzur]

most , if not all of it, was true though.

especially the part of dialogue.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

For example: let’s talk in the abstract about the worst thing that ever happened to role-playing games is recorded audio for dialogue. I happen to believe that was the death of my joy. Because that limits... that causes production things... the content has to be nailed down at a certain point.

So [voiced] text is not easily revisable. As I play, text is easily revisable; audio isn’t. As I play, I want to make tiny little changes to the tone, to the feel of things, but you can’t do that when you have all this audio -- oh my god, all the audio that we have to record! So what I’m going to say is: for what the audience wants, we are forced to create these things that are very brittle, that cannot be revised.

Whereas in the happy old days of Baldurs Gate and things like that, I thought you had the best of both worlds. You could have a little snippet of dialogue that would give character, but then you would get in text trees which you could easily scan and click through. For page, that’s the important thing; dialogue pace. In a good old-fashioned role-playing game, the user controls the pace, where unfortunately in both video and recorded audio, you can’t scan it and you can’t backtrack in it.

anyway bros I condensed the important bits below that you should read because it's actually pretty frank stuff

I’m going to suggest to you that I do not have the highly-tune aesthetic senses that you have -- that I’m in fact a nine year old when it comes to role-playing games. My entire... ok, the first role-playing game rule to me is my real story is “I’m not dead yet”. The change from Monopoly to role-playing games is that you kept your character forever. You were playing on Sunday and Monday and Tuesday. So all I really love is not being dead.

So I’m the pilgrim. I’m the guy who’s always terrified, always thinks I should be dying, because those monsters should kill me and that I’m wandering through the world looking for lore. So that attachment that I have -- the attachment to the world and the attachment to always being in peril and always being ignorant and always looking to learn something -- I don’t find that imperilled in any way.

Now what you’re talking about is in the sense of humanity. You’re looking for the humanity in literature and art and I’m saying maybe you should stick with film or novels, because they’re really, really good places to do that. Or live-action role-playing games, where it’ll be a lot better than it is in your computer game. In live-action role-playing where you’re actually talking to human beings.

AusGamers: But there’s no sense of danger.

Ken: What do you mean no sense of danger? There’s a sense of failure. To me, death is purely abstract. Because I know I’m not being threatened by death in a game. I know I get to save and reload. Whereas a live-action role-playing game, I love playing Louis Renault in a game called Casablanca and playing Louis Renault the policeman. He’s supposed to keep peace in Casablanca and there are 70 other players who’s job is to make things a total disaster.

The deliciousness of that for me, is knowing that I have so few powers and my character is doomed to fail. That -- talking about a real narrative role -- that’s see... you are in the wrong medium -- you should be playing in live-action role-playing games.

They’re commercially... no commercial potential. Nullus pretii in Latin -- no commercial potential -- but that’s where you can do the kind of dramatic stuff that you’re talking about.

You want these games to do what they can’t do. Number one: you want them to have... ok, let’s start back with dialogue -- dialogue in role-playing games. There is nothing in a role-playing game that is as badly simulated -- by contract to real-world analogue -- as dialogue. And also, there’s nothing as non-interactive as dialogue.

Let me draw you a graph on the video of interactivity in a dialogue [gesturing] there’s the graph and time passes; and you input; and time passes; and you input. Even if you’re moving, you’re constantly doing inputs and choices. It is probably the worst part of gaming in any role-playing game. And at the same time, not on is it bad for interactivity, it’s bad in modelling the complexity of this relationship.

You and I are talking; we’re in a dialogue; there are a lot of different ways it can go. It’s only a branching tree in a computer game; you bring a lot to the experience. When you become attached to characters, you are a willing suspension of disbelief. And I blame you for not being filled with rage, screaming “this isn’t good enough”. And at the same time, I promise you I’m not going to give you one, because it would not -- in a triple-A game -- be possible for me to build a compelling model of a human being that you could interact with.

AusGamers: So games are basically always going to be a set of preset systems that we interact with, but have limitations regardless, because of that.

Ken: Limited conventions, like a sonnet. Why is that bad thing? It’s a wonderful thing! You learn to take your conventions; you do the very best that you can do with them within those conventions. It turns out that these games aren’t bad! They’re fun! They’re very satisfying. It’s just that when we get into this abstract discussion about RPGs in general. I think it’s nice to say -- within this framework -- we’re living in a very, very tiny world of the possibility space. And that huge possibility space outside of it that you dream about -- that’s completely somewhere else.

Ken: Reckoning has got the best combat in an RPG and it’s the best pacing of any combat in an RPG -- the best theatre. And what I hope to do is... I always felt that RPGs are kind of slow paced and it’s kind of an artifact of the table-top, to the turn-based level, to the pretty good movement, but not very good combat of modern third-person games.

So what I’m hoping is, that by having good combat -- which is exciting and satisfying -- we will increase the pace of gameplay in some way, and the mean-spirited expectations of the users so that they will start insisting that we have faster-paced games -- which, personally, I just want to play faster-paced role-playing games.

the key to understanding kingdoms of amalur

rpg lover in the face of technological limitaion gives up on proppa rpg simulating, decides to make action rpg because there is no progress possible in dynamic narratives aka actual pnp style rpg storytelling

unfortunately his pragmatism and therefore potential for making sweet squad based fantasy hack and slash stuff is tempered by thinking turn based games are slow paced

 

[Hobo Elf]

Ken moves around like he's a muppet puppet. It's kind of bizarre.

 

[Jaesun]

the key to understanding kingdoms of amalur

Agreed.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

I don't know why there are no huge fucking two handed hammers in d&d

I'd like to move away from greatswords but noooo 2d6 is die besten stats und you choose anything else you are laaaarrrppingggg

fuck you 1d10 great flail
fuck you 1d8 lance, you are piece of shit that is pointy warhammer except needing two hands

I notice that greatsword is most expensive but come on we are in goddamn dungeonlands with goblins shitting on their gold and putting gems in codpiece and 30 gp difference to get 1 more minimum damage than great axe is not balance it is shit so fuck you d&d

is just like choosing of gauss rifle in FO2

you say, oh this time try play of energy weapons perhaps young pilgrim of roleplaying there is pulse rifle with highest damage or so wiki here is saying

no fuck you is shit with energy resistance numbers prostituted to antmen wearing shiny boxes and also range is terrible and whole character becomes farce of low combat damage with ghost of small guns standing to side and saying why the fool did not choose us, he has fun like this?

 

[Duckard]

This guy is hilarious. "You like Mass Effect? You should try LARPing!"

He has points about how tons of branching paths aren't really possible because of the limitations put in place by the market and the technology. The only part I really disagree with him about is that RPGs need to have action combat and that turnbased sucks.

 

[Metro]

What a pretentious fucker that guy is... but he makes decent points. Unfortunately they are all undercut by developing a game like Kingdoms of Amalur. So, because you can't make a game that mimics real life a la a Star Trek holodeck just make some shitty WoW clone? Gotcha.

 

[Jaesun]

What a pretentious fucker that guy is... but he makes decent points. Unfortunately they are all undercut by developing a game like Kingdoms of Amalur.

That was pretty much my assessment as well.

 

[eric__s]

Old Codexer

He was the lead designer for Oblivion.

I think his problem is that he projects his weaknesses as a writer onto RPGs as a whole. He cannot write large dialogue trees or convincing characters so he's decided they don't have a place in games. I also think there's a significant generational divide between him and us. He's approaching this as a person who has seen the scope of choice and narrative in role playing shrink from the live action role playing of the 70s to the computer role playing games of today, whereas most of us approach it as people who have seen the scope increase from the computer games of the 80s to the games of today. I don't want to say the industry has moved beyond him, but he has an antiquated, maybe even luddite view of almost everything.

 

[shihonage]

the key to understanding kingdoms of amalur

Agreed.

Wow, my amazing Photoshop got quoted.

 

[Mastermind]

This guy sounds out of his fucking mind. Real life prosper?

 

[Gregz]

Old Codexer

He was the lead designer for Oblivion.

I think his problem is that he projects his weaknesses as a writer onto RPGs as a whole. He cannot write large dialogue trees or convincing characters so he's decided they don't have a place in games. I also think there's a significant generational divide between him and us. He's approaching this as a person who has seen the scope of choice and narrative in role playing shrink from the live action role playing of the 70s to the computer role playing games of today, whereas most of us approach it as people who have seen the scope increase from the computer games of the 80s to the games of today. I don't want to say the industry has moved beyond him, but he has an antiquated, maybe even luddite view of almost everything.

He also created Paranoia, a semi-popular PnP RPG. I played it a few times, once at a convention. It was set in a strange kind of light-hearted dystopian future with a lot of 'congratulations you have died' scenarios in the game. It was uncommon for a character to survive a single session in fact.

His comment about being 'a pligrim who's glad he's not dead' in a game does remind me of the very old games when any wrong move could kill you (Rogue etc.) So yeah, in that way he is antiquated. Games are so soft-core/general audience now. I can't find fault with his points however, lots of people have unrealistic expectations of computer games. Like many game developers of his generation, this guy has spent 30+ years trying to recreate the PnP gaming experience on a computer, and he's come to the very true conclusion that it simply can't be done.

That doesn't mean computer games can't be fun, it's just that crpgs can never replace the PnP or LARP (I'm embarassed for the guy) experience.

 

[Lesifoere]

What a pretentious fucker that guy is... but he makes decent points. Unfortunately they are all undercut by developing a game like Kingdoms of Amalur.

That was pretty much my assessment as well.

 

[Zomg]

I like the bit about RPGs being games where your piece doesn't die at the end but is still alive next week. That was really a key part of P&P RPG early popularity and a lot of why MMORPGs make so much money. Something is just narcotic about the persistence of a fake person and world.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Something is just narcotic about the persistence of a fake person and world.

attachment and emotional investment

now money and hence subscription based access has made itself part of the equation

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

It was an interesting interview and while I disagree on a few points with that guy - mainly because I don't like modern cRPGs and I don't find turn-based to be simultaneous with slow-paced, but despite that he basically was in the opposite camp, I didn't get that usual impression that the speaker is retarded that I usually get when listening to what the opposite camp says. I have to say that it was very interesting and refreshing experience.

 

[MisterStone]

On the Codex, mild disagreement with something someone said combined with jealousy that this person makes a living in game development = "Baaww why doesn't pretentious fucker die from stomach cancer?!!!"

 

[bhlaab]

NOT ENOUGH TODD MACFARLANE

 

[roll-a-die]

What a pretentious fucker that guy is... but he makes decent points. Unfortunately they are all undercut by developing a game like Kingdoms of Amalur. So, because you can't make a game that mimics real life a la a Star Trek holodeck just make some shitty WoW clone? Gotcha.

Sigh, and Planescape was a follower of brown on grey quake pallete graphics.

Just saying. Haven't done much research on Kingdoms of Alamur, but it's graphics style is the least of my concerns. They look varied, colourful and rich.

Just browsing through the website.

The use of Irish myth, is both pleasing and interesting, because there is a broad bit of it that interests me. Also it's not LotR bullshit.

The enemy and character design look reasonably varied if overelaborate, but recent times my VtM games have been traded for Exalted. So meh, overelaborate is nothing to me.

Races sound at least moderately interesting. Again liking the Irish nomenclature.

The focus on combat from the interview also gives me a bit of hope. One of my main problems with it, was that it tried too hard to be a gamists game and a story focused game, and failed at both of them in increasingly broad strokes.

Looking at the pax east demo summary, again looks varied enough to keep me interested at least.


So what was you point, mocking a game for it's art style? Despite the fact that it's still miles better than the trite moronic styles that Bioware and Bethesda have been putting out.

Mocking it for it's gameplay, which almost inverse to your point, plays more like God of War than anything else.

Perhaps you were mocking it for its creator's legacy, Whilst Ken Rolsten did indeed lead development on Oblivion, he was chained to Todd, and couldn't let his originality steep like it did in the other game he was lead designer on, Morrowind. He also immediately upon release of Oblivion left Bethesda. This is telling of his opinions on how it went.

Perhaps you were attempting to be a mindless cur who complains about simultaneously nothing and everything, again whilst doing everything to contrive an entire chemical corpus of idiocy.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

NOT ENOUGH TODD MACFARLANE

I assure you there is always enough todd macfarlane

 

[Metro]

Mocking it for it's gameplay

This is what I was mocking it for, yes. And rightly so. Rather than at least making an attempt at a somewhat in-depth cRPG he just abandons it and goes straight up action genre with RPG 'elements.'

Perhaps you were attempting to be a mindless cur who complains about simultaneously nothing and everything, again whilst doing everything to contrive an entire chemical corpus of idiocy.

Perhaps you were attempting to use excessively colorful verbiage to come across as witty or intelligent?

 

[roll-a-die]

Mocking it for it's gameplay

This is what I was mocking it for, yes. And rightly so. Rather than at least making an attempt at a somewhat in-depth cRPG he just abandons it and goes straight up action genre with RPG 'elements.'

Perhaps you were attempting to be a mindless cur who complains about simultaneously nothing and everything, again whilst doing everything to contrive an entire chemical corpus of idiocy.

Perhaps you were attempting to use excessively colorful verbiage to come across as witty or intelligent?

Then why perchance did you call it a WoW clone? Why not simply remark on that, rather than promote idiocy through your own words.

Personally, it's gameplay is interesting enough to me to buy it. Simply because I like the God of War style gameplay. It seems like it will match it's gameplay fairly well, particularly if they manage to put in on the computer with a decent port.

Another thing to keep in mind is that RPG has always meant different things.

While many think the Infinity Engine/Fallout Style are the only things worthy of being called RPGs. Go further back, and compare Lands of Lore, with Ultima 6, or with Might and Magic 4. Hell compare Ultima 4 with Ultima 7. Are both RPGs, indubitably, however, both have very different interfaces, and different styles of combat. Ultima 4 has a turn based style. While Ultima 7 has a predominantly real time, walk towards and enemy and watch your characters slaughter them.

Genre elements have been toned down for a massive amount of time. Looking at the FPS genre, do we still call something like Modern Warfare an FPS. The answer is yes, it's just a bad, well mediocre FPS. The only things RPG's had that other games didn't were Statistical Systems, Broad In Depth Worlds, Stories(Debatably), and semi-Persistent Characters. Simply because they originally evolved from Table Top games, on things that couldn't do combat of this sort, doesn't mean that we have to ostracize certain games. Games which mind you, might even be good, just because they have toned down some of the elements of their progenitors. Turn Based, and RTwP were NEVER unique to the RPG.

 

[Metro]

There are areas of compromise between older titles and newer games and this game doesn't even attempt to come close to it. So, for the third time, yes, his pretentious rant is undercut by making a game like Kingdoms of Amalur. No different than Tim Cain making that 'Wildstar' or whatever MMO for Carbine. Or Warren Spector making Epic Mickey. These are the people who have the most clout to help preserve the very things they bemoan are lacking in today's games yet they choose not to do it.