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From Software Dark Souls 3

Halfling Rodeo

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Dec 14, 2023
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963
Time travel is time travel, Sif also recognizes you if you save her in the past.
If people are jumping through time and (p)rewriting history then time isn't working correctly. If you want to get all youtube fag you could argue memories in the souls universe hold time within them (traveling into a giant's memory to interact with the past). The undead curse eats away at people's memories and causes them to warp or get forgotten entirely. If memories hold time and memories are damaged by the undead curse it's possible the past is being carved away at by the future forgetting it.
 

Max Damage

Savant
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Messages
661
If there's no grandpa paradox, then time must be working just fine within context of the fictional world.
 

Caim

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Nope. There's a line by Solaire in DS1 to handwave co-op summoning, though.
It has straight up time travel. You go into the past through the giant's memories and kill the lord. The last giant's soul was changed in SOTF to reference you beating the lord/last giant.
When you get the Drangleic armor, sword and shield in DS2 you don't get the helmet. When you go back in time in one of the memories you can run into Captain Drummond, who according to the item description is the former owner of the Drangleic armor. If you talk to him after beating the Giant Lord he gives you his helmet as a reward. This is why you don't find the helmet with the rest of his gear: he gave it to your future self.

Though it'd be funny if he were to give you the helmet anyway, and if you own it it will disappear from your inventory and reimburse the materials and souls you used to upgrade it. And if you sold it you lose a number of souls equal to its selling price.
 

Silva

Arcane
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What's the consensus on the chronological order of the lords of cinders kindlings?

I always thought Ludleth was the oldest one but now I think he was actually the most recent because the dark he lighted up was that one in Oceiros backyard, right? So my guess now is:

1 (oldest): Abyss watchers
2: Yhorm
3: Aldrich
4: Ludleth
5 (present): Lothric prince
 

Caim

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As good a guess as any. The Abyss Watchers would have obliterated Aldrich and Sulivahn the moment they smelled the Abyssal infection, and Sulivahn found the Profaned Flame so Yhorm must've been gone by that point. Ludleth specifically gave everyone one last chance, and the entire plot started because Lothric was told by Aldia to just let the world die.
 

Silva

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Wtf is a grandpa paradox?
If you go back in time and off your gaffer, how are you alive in present to go back in time and whack the old man?
So, kinda like Champion Gundyr who was the original Iudex Gundyr, but after you asskick him in the past, he's now used as test for ashen ones who arrive at firelink, where you meet him for the first time?
 

Halfling Rodeo

Educated
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Messages
963
What's the consensus on the chronological order of the lords of cinders kindlings?

I always thought Ludleth was the oldest one but now I think he was actually the most recent because the dark he lighted up was that one in Oceiros backyard, right? So my guess now is:

1 (oldest): Abyss watchers
2: Yhorm
3: Aldrich
4: Ludleth
5 (present): Lothric prince
Do they have to be in line with each other? We're dealing with multiverse bullshit and time lines collapsing together could cause different lords to merge into one the same time zone. Same way Lord of cinder is many player characters.
Wtf is a grandpa paradox?
If you go back in time and off your gaffer, how are you alive in present to go back in time and whack the old man?
So, kinda like Champion Gundyr who was the original Iudex Gundyr, but after you asskick him in the past, he's now used as test for ashen ones who arrive at firelink, where you meet him for the first time?
Isn't the dark shrine an entirely different shrine to the one we know? Gundyr is impaled in the light one after being infected with pus. And the dark one is him arriving too late as the light has already faded and the firelink inhabitants are gone/never arrived. He's not infected so he's not impaled outside the gate.
 

Silva

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they have to be in line with each other? We're dealing with multiverse bullshit and time lines collapsing together could cause different lords to merge into one the same time zone. Same way Lord of cinder is many player characters.
Well, it could be.

But the way I conceived this convergence was more in a geological than planar sense (though there are certainly instances of the later, see Oceiros backyard). Like, if Hitler was a lord of cinder, the Germany that would show up wouldn't be the war machine of his time but the land of wokes and faggots we have at the present. In fact, the Abysswatchers land is basically this: gone is the imposing keep and badasses of yore, replaced by a bunch of dog fart sniffers watching over their decrepit, Ghru overrun, graves.

Isn't the dark shrine an entirely different shrine to the one we know? Gundyr is impaled in the light one after being infected with pus. And the dark one is him arriving too late as the light has already faded and the firelink inhabitants are gone/never arrived. He's not infected so he's not impaled outside the gate.
They're the same, the dark one is the past of the light one. It's here where Gundyr was belated, took a beating by someone and was turned into "sheath"/judge for future ashen ones. It's also the one Ludleth reverted back to light by kindling the flame, according to his own speeches.

The handmaid granny even remembers your face if you talk to her in the dark before the light one.
 
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Halfling Rodeo

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963
they have to be in line with each other? We're dealing with multiverse bullshit and time lines collapsing together could cause different lords to merge into one the same time zone. Same way Lord of cinder is many player characters.
Well, it could be.

But the way I conceived the lands of the lords converging around the flame is not as if those were pulled out of time, just geologically being dragged to the flame in their present state. Like, if Hitler was a lord of cinder, the Germany that would show up wouldn't be the war machine of his time but the land of wokes and faggots we have now. In fact, the Abysswatchers land is basically this: gone are the badasses of yore, replaced by a bunch of dog fart sniffers watching over their graves.

Isn't the dark shrine an entirely different shrine to the one we know? Gundyr is impaled in the light one after being infected with pus. And the dark one is him arriving too late as the light has already faded and the firelink inhabitants are gone/never arrived. He's not infected so he's not impaled outside the gate.
They're the same, the dark one is the past of the light one. It's here where Gundyr was belated, took a beating by someone and was turned into "sheath"/judge for future ashen ones. It's also the one Ludleth reverted back to light by kindling the flame, according to his own speeches.

The handmaid granny even remembers your face if you talk to her in the dark before the light one.
The ringed city is at the end of time and existed there after Gwyn locked it with the dark sign. It would imply there's time manipulation happening outside of the convergence as well as inside it. It could be that the universe being scrunched up like an old bit of paper brings different parts of it together, but the act of being scrunched always makes it the declining part. You can never have a vibrant clean bit of paper when the scrunch creases everything. The lands drawn in are fucked by being drawn in since the cycle repeating is causing the decline and the convergence.

I forgot she remembers you. I don't recall there being lore that you bullied Gundyr and made him fail on his quest. I always took it as he turned up too late and all the support had already left except her. Also lol souls lore, the writing team don't even know half this shit themselves.
 

Silva

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Halfling Rodeo , Ringed City is at the end of *earth*, not time. This is the quote from the handmaid. What makes it weird is that princess' egg, which slows the city's timeflow and keeps it from turning to dust like the world outside.

About Gundyr beating, it's stated in his items. But he was already belated (and the world dark) when that happened. This is not so different from Artorias case in DS1, where the Chosen Undead kicks his ass in a time loop or sorts.

And yeah, Souls series lore was always fishy but this entry raised this to a new level. I bet there are lots of holes that fans try to cope through theories.
 

Halfling Rodeo

Educated
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Messages
963
@Halfling Rodeo , Ringed City is at the end of *earth*, not time. This is the quote from the handmaid. What makes it weird is that princess' egg, which slows the city's timeflow and keeps it from turning to dust like the world outside.
Maybe it's too much Douglas Adams and Doctor Who but I always took it to be like "at the end of the universe". The egg keeping it locked out of time/space until the very last moment to ever exist, where the dark soul cannot escape and end the age of fire. Until eventually the cycles bring everything to that point in history as it caused everything else to cascade into it.
 

Halfling Rodeo

Educated
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Messages
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Makes the ringed city not just a physical Gaza strip prison, but a dimensional one too.
It also explains what happens when the egg breaks. Gwyn's magic breaks with the egg and suddenly the city is pulled back into the physical world. It's been in it's bubble for so long everything has converged and it's the end of everything.
 

Silva

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So, after my last playthrough I think I finally figured out Londor. It's goal always seemed obvious (usurp the fire duh), but their modus operandi, and the role it's various agents play, not so much. So here it goes:

- Londor Modus Operandi:

1) A faith, sedimented in the Sable Church, proselityzing the non-kindling of fire and welcoming the age of dark. It seems to accept undead people, hollowing or not, to embrace it and become "pilgrims". The old pilgrim NPC overlooking the dreg heap in the DLC supports this, as she was a former handmaid from Lothric kingdom herself, according to her ashes description. Ergo, she was a normal undead at some point that "converted" and became a pilgrim.

2) Pilgrims sent across eras to hinder the linking of Fire. How this hindering is done is not entirely clear, but it seems to involve them seeking either A. firelink shrine, B. the kiln of first flame, or C. the current candidate to link the fire/Lord of Cinder (maybe the church sends them to all three). Then they must die nearby this target and "undo their shackles" as spoken by Yoel, supposedly letting their humanity burst through the chains/carapaces in their backs, and become "butterflies". Said butterflies then swarm the target, whatever it is, and try to stop the rekindling of the Fire (even hurting potential helpers if needed, like they do with the Ashen one).

3) A search for, and grooming of, a potential Dark Lord. A task apparently conducted more directly by the three sisters with help of personal retainers, like the pale shades, more prominent pilgrims (like the disguised one spying on Anri), and perhaps even Church hollow knights like Vilhelm in his time of service. Notice how Yoel finding the potential dark lord in undead settlement seems a coincidence, his task was to die and become a buttlerfly, not search the dark lord.

Obs 1: Londor culture and symbolism seems to come from the Ringed City, the fabled "City of Men" from the distant past. One can trace that city's "legacy" from DS1 New Londo and it's architecture, which also portrays the symbol of Avowal in it's towers, to the Morion Blade that has similar shapes, and the Sword of Avowal used in the ritual of transferring the curse from Anri to the Ashen one. Even the name "Londor" seems to come from New Londo. If Londor inhabitants are aware of these links, or if only Kaathe - the probable responsible for preserving said culture/symbology - is aware, is not clear.

Obs 2: they never seemed to have found the Ringed City, judging by the old pilgrim speech at the dreg heap. She refers to the city more like a fable than a real place. Which implies the Sable Church also don't know if it's real or just a fable, nor it's exact location. Ironic, assuming they carry it's legacy.

Obs 3: how the pilgrims travel through time is beyond me, but they most definitely do, as seen in the intro. It's possible Londor is not even in the same time/dimension as Lothric kingdom portrayed in the start of the game, but already at the "end of the world" shown in the intro / time of Gael fight. Some space-time travelling options shown in the game are A. the bonfires, but for this one needs to be unkindkled theoretically; and B. through "portals" like seen in Oceiros backyard which links "present" Fire-era Lothric to the "past", dark-era Lothric.
 

Halfling Rodeo

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Obs 3: how the pilgrims travel through time is beyond me, but they most definitely do, as seen in the intro. It's possible Londor is not even in the same time/dimension as Lothric kingdom portrayed in the start of the game, but already at the "end of the world" shown in the intro / time of Gael fight. Some space-time travelling options shown in the game are A. the bonfires, but for this one needs to be unkindkled theoretically; and B. through "portals" like seen in Oceiros backyard which links "present" Fire-era Lothric to the "past", dark-era Lothric.
Summoning signs also would work. Solaire says the walls between reality are thin and the summon signs let you cross between them. Could even be multiple Londors working together where they see (player) ghosts from different Londors and use the brief cross overs to communicate and figure out how to make them permanent. Souls games never had a problem with you being summoned to/from a later point in the timeline compared to your current story progress.
 

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