Editorial Dead games R.I.P. on GameSpot

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Black Isle Studios; TORN

<A href="http://www.gamespot.com/">GameSpot</a> has an <A href="http://www.gamespot.com/features/6132028/index.html?q=1&tag=gs_hp_flashtop_bg">article</a> about cancelled DOOMED games that never actually made it for whatever reason. While it's no where near a complete list, it does mention things like <b>TORN</b>, <b>Van Buren</b>(In case you've been reading <A href="http://www.nma-fallout.com">No Mutants Allowed</a> - Yes, <b>Van Buren</b> is, in fact, DEAD), and a few other games. Anyway, here's the part of the stuff on <b>TORN</b>:
<br>
<blockquote>But it didn't happen. In fact, trying to use the new engine was just one of the problems in the game's troubled development history. GameSpot contributor Desslock helped chronicle the gory details in our previous Gaming Graveyard feature. But then sometime later, Black Isle worked with developer Reflexive Entertainment to produce another role-playing game called Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader, which also took place in an alternate-fantasy universe (this one was a revised version of Renaissance Europe where sorcery actually existed), which also used the SPECIAL system. Problem solved, right? As it turns out, that game didn't quite live up to its legacy. But more importantly, the cancellation of TORN was really the first open, public sign of the trouble that had been brewing at Black Isle for some time--trouble that would lead to the studio's eventual closure, which was the real heartbreaker for RPG fans.</blockquote>
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Let's all blame <b>Dave Maldonado</b> for it. He's the guy who thought playing instruments in TORN should be a <i>Perk</i> rather than a <i>Skill</i>!
<br>
<br>
Thanks, <B>POOPERSCOOPER</b>!
<br>

 

[Naked_Lunch]

. But more importantly, the cancellation of TORN was really the first open, public sign of the trouble that had been brewing at Black Isle for some time--trouble that would lead to the studio's eventual closure, which was the real heartbreaker for RPG fans.

Heartbreaker? I danced a jig when I heard the news.

 

[Sandelfron]

It was a real shame about Black Isle and the crap that filled its place.
I'd look to independent developers for the next wave of good rpgs.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Any independent developer so long as their name isn't Bioware, Obsidian, or Bethesda, right?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Look up "independent" when you have time. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Sandelfron]

I meant independent in the context of not being affiliated with a large company
such as Microsoft, Atari etc, and not having a large development budget. This
would be parallel with e.g. the film industry.

I'm not quite sure of what your understanding of the phrase is. The companies
you mention I'd consider too large to qualify, having hundreds of people working
on a single title. My understanding of the phrase is a company consisting of
a small number of people with limited resources.

If you mean it in the context of a dev company that does its own publishing,
then that isn't what I mean. If I still don't get what you mean, please enlighten.

EDIT: I looked online to see if there was an exact ISO 9000 style definition
of what constitutes an independent software company but couldn't find one.

 

[Drakron]

That is the wrong definition.

Bioware and Obsidian are independent companies, Bethesda however its not (its part of Bethsoft that in turn part of a larger group that its name eludes me).

Most games today are published under the "big" publishers on the market (EA, Atari, VU Games) but the last majority of those titles are from independent companies, "Boiling Point" was pubslihed by Atari but it was a project that Atari started (unlike NwN2).

The correct definition you seen to be looking would be indepent games, games that were started by a independent company that then looked for a publisher for it (examples, Jade Empire and Arcanum).

 

[Spazmo]

BioWare and Obsidian are independent? Really? Didn't BioWare depend on lucrative licenses like D&D and Star Wars to make their biggest hits, with their "original" game, Jade Empire, being much less successful than BioWare's previous efforts? What sales JE did get (which are, of course, still very strong) are from the BioWare name, which was built on licenses.

As for Obsidian, well, they're in a similar situation. If they'd released a game of KOTOR2's quality but without the Star Wars license and a hugely popular BioWare game to back it up, I don't think such a buggy and dull game would have succeeded (though obviously, it might have reached some kind of fanbase, like those losers who like ToEE). Just because nobody directly owns your company doesn't mean you're independent. Independent means you stand on your own two legs--more than just your own capital: your own games, your own settings, your own ideas.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I meant independent...

My remark was aimed at Exit/Sol. As for what you said, I also believe that the future of the genre is with independent developers. Games like Avernum, Geneforge, Prelude to Darkness, Gearhead, EVN, Mount & Blade, etc featured better design, originality, creativity than their commercial, for the lack of a better word, counterparts.

Bioware and Obsidian are independent companies

As long as they depend on publishers to pay, and thus control, development, they aren't independent. For further proof see Troika, in the end, they couldn't even touch the Arcanum setting simply because they didn't own the rights to their own game anymore, and couldn't use the new engine because nobody wanted to pay for it.

 

[Volourn]

Dumbfucks, all of you, dumbfucks.

 

[corvax]

Games like Avernum, Geneforge, Prelude to Darkness, Gearhead, EVN, Mount & Blade, etc

Age of Decadence...You know you wanted to say it :wink:

 

[Vault Dweller]

Games like Avernum, Geneforge, Prelude to Darkness, Gearhead, EVN, Mount & Blade, etc

Age of Decadence...You know you wanted to say it :wink:

Not really. I've been following too many games to mistake the promise for a finished, playable, proven product. I'm doing my best, and so far it looks good - that's all I can say on that matter.

 

[corvax]

Well I'm looking forward to it and a little hype wouldn't hurt either. Voice acting by the hottest Bollywood star - Ramesh Shah, our skills actually matter, stuff like that. When the game comes out I'm willing to help out with PR free of charge.

 

[Sandelfron]

I've swirlings of ideas for an RPG myself, but I'm writing an engine from scratch.
It'll probably be used for something much simpler than an RPG when finished
because I'd like to save that until I'm more competent (else it turn out half-arsed
like Restricted Area for example).

It loads levels, performs BSP-based collision detection, lets you load .x animated
models with bounding ellipsoids, and there's some pathfinding code I haven't
integrated yet. It's quite fast, and hardly crashes nowadays, except out of spite.

Here's a screenshot (sorry for the size, but the gamma is set low and it'd be black reduced):

SCREENSHOT

 

[Greatatlantic]

SCREENSHOT

It looks to be SHAPING up very nicely.

 

[Sol Invictus]

It is useless to debate anything at the Codex. You idiots will make up definitions just to suit your arguments.

in·de·pen·dent Audio pronunciation of "independent" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nd-pndnt)
adj.

1. Not governed by a foreign power; self-governing.
2. Free from the influence, guidance, or control of another or others; self-reliant: an independent mind.
3. Not determined or influenced by someone or something else; not contingent: a decision independent of the outcome of the study.
4. often Independent Affiliated with or loyal to no one political party or organization.
5. Not dependent on or affiliated with a larger or controlling entity: an independent food store; an independent film.
6.
a. Not relying on others for support, care, or funds; self-supporting.
b. Providing or being sufficient income to enable one to live without working: a person of independent means.

 

[Sandelfron]

SCREENSHOT

It looks to be SHAPING up very nicely.

Arf arf. Ok, enough with the platonic solid jokes.

 

[Jed]

Rex, you just confirmed Spaz, Sandelfron, & VD's definitions and defeated your own "argument." What're you smoking these days?

2. Free from the influence, guidance, or control of another or others; self-reliant: an independent mind.
5. Not dependent on or affiliated with a larger or controlling entity: an independent food store; an independent film.
6. a. Not relying on others for support, care, or funds; self-supporting.

 

[triCritical]

I think of all the games Black Isle had cancelled which was like 20 or something, it was Jefferson that saddened me the most. I sort of thought of it as Baldur's Gate, but good. But I guess, it was a good thing that it was cancelled because it will go down as the best CRPG, I never played... Although, the combat would have probably sucked for certain. But then again all CRPG combat sucks these days.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Hello Jed.

Bioware's projects are self-funded, and to my knowledge, Dragon Age and Jade Empire are original games, with their own IP, rather than a licensed one.

If you want to get 'technical' and argue that Dragon Age is a ripoff of LOTR because it's a "fantasy setting", go right ahead, but you'll know that argument is bullshit, because it is. You might as well say that every fantasy game and book ever written isn't by an independent author, because it's "influenced" or whatever by something.

That is all.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

About the only two things that BioWare rely on is distributors to press their CDs and print up their manuals and package all that stuff up and get it to stores.. And the overwhelming persausive powers of Satan, Prince of Darkness, for their marketting.

 

[LlamaGod]

Exitium is just trying to do that thing where he gets a sassy view point on a situation and uses to defend the crappy games he likes


I WOULD SAY an indie videogame doesnt exactly use direct text definitions but the usual guidline is that it isnt mass manufactured and sold in stores.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Bio has 4 teams currently: DA, more NWN downloadable stuff, and 2 XBOX projects sponsored by Microsoft. So, yeah, Bio's independent. Like, totally.

 

[Jed]

Bioware's projects are self-funded, and to my knowledge, Dragon Age and Jade Empire are original games, with their own IP, rather than a licensed one.

So... the fact that BioWare made it's name publishing D&D and StarWars licenses has somehow escaped you? Let's see, there's Baldur's Gate, Tales of the Sword Coast, Baldur's Gate II, Throne of Bhaal, Knights of the Old Republic, Neverwinter Nights, Shadows of Undrentide, Hordes of the Underdark, and Jade Empire. Dragon Age, although already touted by BioWare itself as a "blockbuster fantasy role-playing game set in a world created and owned by BioWare," has yet to see the light of day. So, out of the nine games that have made BioWare who they are, only one hasn't been a major license. Notice how in the previous quote the Bio PR machine even specifically mentions that Dragon Age is their own IP, thereby emphasizing the fact that this is something new for the company. And not to belabor the point, but if you care to think back a couple of years, Interplay published all the IE games, and Atari published the NWN games.

So I'd have to say if anyone's definition of "independent" is skewed, it is yours. I know you're bitter, but this kind of contrariness just makes you look really fucking silly.

 

[DemonKing]

BioWare and Obsidian are independent? Really? Didn't BioWare depend on lucrative licenses like D&D and Star Wars to make their biggest hits, with their "original" game, Jade Empire, being much less successful than BioWare's previous efforts? What sales JE did get (which are, of course, still very strong) are from the BioWare name, which was built on licenses.

Jade Empire has sold only 500 000 copies - a pretty modest total for a AAA X-Box game, and less than Fable which sold over 1 million as of a few months ago.

Compared to Bio's previous licensed D&D/Star Wars titles, which to my knowledge were all million+ sellers, it's looking a bit feeble.

Could it be that Bio might have been better of catering to their exisiting PC CRPG fanbase instead of jumping on the console band wagon? Perhaps their expectations for JE were too high based on high KOTOR sales on X-Box (which were themselves artifically bolstered by the fact that the PC version was released some time after the X-Box version).

I guess the success or failure of Dragon Age will be interesting to watch, although rumours it might also be released on X-Box360 are discouraging.

Check it out here for all the details:

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/646/646723p1.html