Game News Dead State Kickstarter Update #27: Full Party Control

[Infinitron]

Also note how there is no party control during Real-Time, with party auto-following the PC. Just another disaster waiting to happen.

There will be a toggle for no auto-following, of course. You can control any of your party members when in real time.

OOPS. Vots got vots'ed.

 

[Jaesun]

Why do people read VOTS retarded posts?

 

[Elhoim]

Not to graphic whore and beat a dead Andyman, but I really wish they'd work on the environmental aesthetics next. Then bust out some sample shots. At least add some ruin to the surroundings. Nothing about the areas you navigate says zombie apoc or anything of the sort, at least from what I've seen so far. Looks like baby's first 3D project, just way too clean and neat. The visual quality is there but the grimy details are missing, big time. Stuff like this can make or break immersion.

We will add a more grit later, plus we'll make some changes to the levels decay depending how many weeks since the apocalypse. Remember that the game starts just 2 weeks after the apocalypse, and many places were just deserted.

 

[villain of the story]

Why do people read VOTS retarded posts?

Why the butthurt? Inbox spam?

Also note how there is no party control during Real-Time, with party auto-following the PC. Just another disaster waiting to happen.

There will be a toggle for no auto-following, of course. You can control any of your party members when in real time.

Well then perhaps whoever is taking care of the Kickstarter updates should do so with a little bit more clarity:

Creator DoubleBear Productions about 12 hours ago
@JR - The party follows the active character in real-time so you don't have to constantly move each one when exploring.

Gave the impression that RT auto-pilot was the only available mode. Now how about adding that wP to RT?

 

[A user named cat]

We will add a more grit later, plus we'll make some changes to the levels decay depending how many weeks since the apocalypse. Remember that the game starts just 2 weeks after the apocalypse, and many places were just deserted.

Ahhh, okay. Didn't know about it taking place so soon after the zombie takeover, so the areas shown so far do make sense then. Looking forward to seeing how it turns out. I like the decaying idea.

 

[hiver]

I know its because apparently coding the proper Ai is a bit of a work and time... thats why im raging.

I had hoped that this will be one chance to do a better version of old concepts, which were not even Ai at all. In Fallouts it was basically just some scripts thrown together in a hurry, as Tim Cain explained...
Damn it!

 

[Azrael the cat]

In fairness, I've been yet to encounter a game where party AI has actually worked - it's a great idea in theory, but it always seems to just become a clusterfuck in practice. The games which have had it and also been good, have generally been good despite the party AI rather than because of it (let's not even talk about getting a sub-machine gun clip to the back in FO). Even with more recent games, I've never seen it work for anything more complex than 'companions attack at x range', and usually with no more than 1 companion (NV did 2, but again, all the party members needed to do was attack at a set distance).

Given that major studios have consistently failed to make it work, the idea that a part-time indie project would be able to do party AI effectively is crazy.

 

[BobtheTree]

I'm hoping full party control doesn't compromise the potential for the personalities of AI to screw you over in certain circumstances. It sounds like it will, but I think being able to mitigate the weaknesses of certain characters might make the game too easy once you figure it out. But I'm sure they're anticipating that and trying to tweak the game accordingly.

 

[Coboney]

I'm hoping full party control doesn't compromise the potential for the personalities of AI to screw you over in certain circumstances. It sounds like it will, but I think being able to mitigate the weaknesses of certain characters might make the game too easy once you figure it out. But I'm sure they're anticipating that and trying to tweak the game accordingly.

They've said they plan on still having the shelter and such stay the same and that there will be trigger conditions for things like Panic that the AI takes over. Basically seems like they are taking a middle approach - full control unless a circumstance that triggers AI happens.

 

[hiver]

Getting the sub machine gun clip into the back is as it should be - when youre (i mean anyone, me included) godamn so stupid to run in front of a crazed tribal on drugs - or Ian.
Serves you (or me) godamn right. And the same goes for being so foolish to go in front of Marcus minigun.
(obviously its not a good thing if Ian or Sulik run behind youre back and then shoot you... but that can also be mitigated... by not giving SMGs to such characters? Just an idea...)

As ive said and Tim Cain explained, that wasnt an AI at all. There was no Ai there. They just threw some half done scripts together in the rush at the end.
FO2 improved on that a little and killaps patches cleared remaining mistakes in that concept so much that there was barely any issues with companions at all.


btw, i didnt see any complaints about behavior of AoD short time allies.
But whatever... whats done is done. I wasnt really interested in playing a game about zombies anyway, from the start, so ... whatever man!

 

[tuluse]

If you've given Sulik anything other than a melee weapon, you're doing it wrong.

 

[CrimsonAngel]

Well i like this change. Even when it works it tend to be annoying.

The only game i can remember that have a half decent system is FF12. The Gambit system they had in place was simple and let me modify things a ton so i could more or less turn on the stuff i wanted and what priority it had.

 

[FeelTheRads]

If you've given Sulik anything other than a melee weapon, you're doing it wrong.

Moar like if you gave him anything other than a 223 pistol you're doing it wrong.

 

[EG]

I know its because apparently coding the proper Ai is a bit of a work and time... thats why im raging.

I had hoped that this will be one chance to do a better version of old concepts, which were not even Ai at all. In Fallouts it was basically just some scripts thrown together in a hurry, as Tim Cain explained...
Damn it!

Just like all AI when it comes to video games (ignoring lolzy attempts at faking neural nets).

 

[SuicideBunny]

In fairness, I've been yet to encounter a game where party AI has actually worked - it's a great idea in theory, but it always seems to just become a clusterfuck in practice.

go play dragon's dogma.

 

[Spectacle]

Party AI in turn based games is the dumbest idea ever. I've never understood why you develop a nice turn based combat system and then leave 80% of the tactical decisions to the AI, and make it nearly impossible for the player to do any coordinated tactics.

If you're going to have AI controlled companions then at least make the combat real time so it's over quickly, it's not like you need the fine control of turn based when you only control one character.

 

[Infinitron]

Party AI in turn based games is the dumbest idea ever. I've never understood why you develop a nice turn based combat system and then leave 80% of the tactical decisions to the AI, and make it nearly impossible for the player to do any coordinated tactics.

If you're going to have AI controlled companions then at least make the combat real time so it's over quickly, it's not like you need the fine control of turn based when you only control one character.

It makes sense when coping with your companion's wildcard AI is part of the game's challenge. They function more like unreliable henchmen than fully fledged companions.

 

[Spectacle]

Party AI in turn based games is the dumbest idea ever. I've never understood why you develop a nice turn based combat system and then leave 80% of the tactical decisions to the AI, and make it nearly impossible for the player to do any coordinated tactics.

If you're going to have AI controlled companions then at least make the combat real time so it's over quickly, it's not like you need the fine control of turn based when you only control one character.

It makes sense when coping with your companion's wildcard AI is part of the game's challenge. They function more like unreliable henchmen than fully fledged companions.

Easily fixed by having companions occasionally control their own turns, no need to remove half of the combat gameplay by having no party control.
Another advantage is that you can always tell when a companion in acting on their own, with full AI control it will be hard to tell the difference between intentionally unpredictable AI and regular derpy AI.

 

[Infinitron]

Easily fixed by having companions occasionally control their own turns, no need to remove half of the combat gameplay by having no party control.
Another advantage is that you can always tell when a companion in acting on their own, with full AI control it will be hard to tell the difference between intentionally unpredictable AI and regular derpy AI.

Well, think of it this way. You know how sometimes when you have a fight in an RPG town the guards will come to your aid? You usually can't control the guards in those fights. Nothing wrong with that, right?

 

[Spectacle]

Well, think of it this way. You know how sometimes when you have a fight in an RPG town the guards will come to your aid? You usually can't control the guards in those fights. Nothing wrong with that, right?

Nothing wrong with that happening occasionally, but boring if it's going to be the core combat mechanic.

 

[hiver]

Speak for yourself.

Having independent companions with addition of "orders" - and their obedience to them and effectiveness in performing those "orders" based on their stats and characterization works great for me.

Giving the player full control is a consequence of crybabies crying about it!

 

[The Glitterdust Golem]

I've always felt more impact from Meltdown going burst-fire pyscho and wasting the last of my ammo, or Biff pissing his pants, than from an AI-controlled / scripted unit drooling all over himself and blowing up my team in the process.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Shame that they had to change it but as long as they keep the companions prone to panic/psycho attacks, it can still capture the proper atmosphere.

 

[Jaesun]

Brian has not stated anything specific yet, but from the forums:

Quote from: gary_joiner on April 20, 2013, 06:53:08 AM
Not sure what to think of that. On one hand, it will add to gameplay and save programmers lots of work, and on the other it may kill the immersion and will require major rebalancing.

I think that it would be great if party members could still act on their own ( based on AI algorithm of human enemies I would guess) if they don't respect PC authority and/or disobeying orders are part of their nature. For example, hot headed character could get a 10% chance of ignoring the orders and proceed on his/hers own, and if he hates PC, this chance could get even bigger.

I think this would be nice solution, as it would add some interesting decision making to the game. Should I take with me this construction worker who will follow my every order but is not so good in a fight, cop who hates me and may ignore my commands just to sap my authority or psycho killing machine convict, who most probably will rush with his machette at anyone he sees?

There's something like that to what we are saying

 

[tuluse]

This would be really hard to implement, but it would be cool if you could just give general orders like "attack this zombie", "be quiet", "open that door", and then the character would try to carry them out however he/she best thinks to do it, or maybe disobeys and doesn't follow the order at all.