In Progress DECLINE 22: Primitive Proliferation

[Isiloon]

How would Mictlan be my "vassal" as you say, if he's on the other side of the world where I can't reach him? Perhaps you're a big meanie and people who don't want to hear your "muh ravens" bullshit seek a strong friend.

Marverni is the last nation you will attack, without the wrath of the free world bearing down on you, unholy one.

 

[Grimwulf]

How would Mictlan be my "vassal" as you say

WORDS - do you understand them?

Fomoria and Lanka are vassals, and you are the liege

Sigh. One day Pangeans will learn how to read.

 

[mondblut]

mondblut and coldcrow should be ashamed really. Especially now, in the light of Machaka which refused to be vassalized, fended off the attacking forces, and is now reclaiming lost lands and being a badass. Alone. While you two follow orders of the pycho god of Pangaea without second thought.

What orders? You are probably the only one who still remembers Lanka is in this game We are fucking Switzerland Lichtenstein.

 

[Isiloon]

More like Kyrgyzstan, receiving blood slave remittances from Pangaea because you can't blood hunt yourself

 

[KoolNoodles]

mondblut and coldcrow

 

[Isiloon]

I think breaking a deal explicitly stated as being permanent is like dishonoring trade deals, besides - since they joined up with me they've actually made a net profit from where they were.

Fomoria is on the attack rather than the defense, Lanka is getting humanitarian aid. Mostly I give them stuff and ask them to do things, really not that bad. Shame you didn't want to join KoolNoodles - we could have been good together, but you joined Grimwulf instead

And what has he given you? I gave Lanka maybe ~100 blood slaves, gave fomoria a item forging province and bunch of gems... what has Grimwulf given you?

I imagine he's given you heaps of good feels by talking you up in public - words are free, but hasn't actually done anything good.

Grimwulf's Helheim is an evil empire, Pangaea represents the will of multiple nations who work together to spread freedom

 

[Grimwulf]

I think breaking a deal explicitly stated as being permanent is like dishonoring trade deals

Trades are binding, everything else goes. This is general rule for all Dominions games. You should know that better than anyone, considering how many agreements you broke in this game. Hell, I'm pretty sure you've beaten even sqeecoo's personal record.

Why should coldcrow or mondblut remain loyal to a man who basically jumped on them out of the blue and deprived them of any hope for winning the game? Just to play kingmakers? To watch you "gloriously" Throne rush the game? Humanitarian aid my ass.

Shame you didn't want to join KoolNoodles - we could have been good together, but you joined Grimwulf instead

He didn't become your vassal, coz Dominions isn't a slave-master game, bull-brain. Pretender's blood is flowing in his veins. And guess what, he didn't "join" me as well. Your harpy scouts must be lying dead drunk in your capital or sumth if you don't see my armies on Machakan borders.

Spoiler

jk, I know you can't see glam troops

And still, plenty of fully visible forces standing there as well.

I actually expect Machaka invade Helheim at some point. Right after he beats your braggin' sorry ass.

Grimwulf's Helheim is an evil empire, Pangaea represents the will of multiple nations who work together to spread freedom

Go spread your freedom in rainbow ponyland. This isn't the place for trash-talking psychos like you.

This is the place of blood.
This is the place of war.

This is the place where MEN, STATUES and GIANT-LION-ANT-MONSTERS fight to become GODS.

AND IT'S NEVER TOO LATE TO GROW SOME FUCKING BALLS AND JUMP INTO THE FUCKING FRAY

 

[LucidTactics]

Hey guys, I'll be temp subbing for squec

 

[sqeecoo]

Yep, guys, meet Lucid. I'll ask him to honor existing deals, but he has full authority to make any decisions he feels are right while I'm away. Which is not yet, not until Friday

Mekone is still alive. Speaking of which, wtf sqeecoo? Do you find joy in torturing AI nation or what?

Mekone would be long gone if I hadn't been the focus of brutal and unprovoked attacks by Marverni and Betty. I had to lift the siege twice.

Trades are binding, everything else goes. This is general rule for all Dominions games. You should know that better than anyone, considering how many agreements you broke in this game. Hell, I'm pretty sure you've beaten even sqeecoo's personal record.

My personal record of broken deals per game is like one, I think.

And Isiloon, that Civ spoof was a thing of beauty.

 

[Isiloon]

Well, considering I've given them both stuff after they became my vassals, I dont really see the validity of "anything goes" in this case.

Whats the difference between betraying trade deals and betraying vassalage deals if I give them stuff - gems, bloodslaves, provinces and items, only because they are my vassals. I understand that to you Grimwulf dominions is a game to see who is the most autistic with testing, scripting and micro-managing - maybe getting some sadistic satisfaction from killing the helpless (Why you play mplayer right?), I actually enjoy the diplomatic aspects most. If the game allowed for it I would take their first born like the Romans did.

NaPs come and go all the time, breaking them is part of the game - everyone and their dog knows that - you yourself broke NaP with Dreead when you sent in bunch of guys with bane venom charms... in that game you were Niefelheim...just to create the appearance of not breaking a NaP when you clearly did.

However "permanent" means permanent just like trade deals are not enforced in-game either - but everyone respects them because if there was absolutely no rules at all, then it would really limit diplo and shut down a huge part of the game.

You keep saying "throne rush' when you are the only person who would do that, because you see things through your very narrow prism of "must win by any means" - you have admin powers, why dont you just make everyone AI and proclaim yourself winner? There's no written rule that says you cant do that either, its just common sense. Likewise it's common sense that if someone says "this is a permanent deal" which nobody says to normal NaP - then it is a permanent deal.

I dont have a "permanent arrangement" with anyone except Lanka and Fomoria, who since we made that deal I've given them both stuff - I would sub out/go AI if they backstabbed me after I fed them both, because I dont see that being different from breaking trade deals and I wouldnt want to continue playing this game.

... breaking a NaP is one thing, taking donations as a vassal then saying "huehuehueuhe permanent deal isnt permanent cuz it isnt trade!" is garbage, might as well play with AI who understand diplomacy about as well as you do.

Also I dont trash talk anyone except you because you're the only one who deserves it - all your posts are oozing with hostility and threats to everyone else. I've never seen you play any way other than the aggressive tyrant, so of course you dont understand my strategy - or make false assumptions and completely miss the ball on trying to read into what deals I have on.. when your own deals are obvious like an open book.

I should hope that coldcrow and mondblut don't follow your interpretation of the rules, which only suits your play style

 

[KoolNoodles]

Are you kidding Isiloon ? Diplomacy, in any form, is not binding and never was. Trading is different because it is a material exchange agreed upon, and the trade system in Dominions isn't sophisticated enough to prevent abuse.

If Dominions had a better trade system, two players would offer goods, both hit accept, and the deal automatically goes through. But it doesn't, so that is why that "rule" exists in most Multiplayer games.

Nobody does diplomacy beyond what they can get out of it for themselves(in your vassals case, survival in the present). Some players are more "honorable" than others, but that generally means nothing beyond what to expect or not expect in the next game.

 

[Isiloon]

In this case vassalage is a material exchange as well, I've given Lanka my entire blood econ pretty much because he doesnt have one. Likewise I've given Fomoria heaps of stuff, among those things is an item-forging province.

If Dominions had a better system I would enforce vassalage by deploying nukes on their territory or something equivalent, like the US did with Japan and Germany, but I can't do that because game doesn't have built in abuse protection and I actually don't want to reduce their capabilities if they are my permanent allies... Like I gave Lanka my blood slaves because his summons are way better than anything I can do with them... So the whole is greater than sum of it's parts kind of thing.

 

[KoolNoodles]

In this case vassalage is a material exchange as well, I've given Lanka my entire blood econ pretty much because he doesnt have one. Likewise I've given Fomoria heaps of stuff, among those things is an item-forging province.

Doesn't matter. You've offered those things as benefits of diplomacy. It's not a "trade" as nearly every Dominions player would see it. Anyways, you can think what you want. Just don't be angry if when they back stab you. Just expect it, and plan ahead.

 

[Isiloon]

Awhat would you do if you traded 100+ blood slaves and 50+ gems and got ripped off.. i would stop playing.

If you want to betray me Mondblut and Coldcrow, I would suggest subbing for me instead, and you can do it now

 

[KoolNoodles]

Awhat would you do if you traded 100+ blood slaves and 50+ gems and got ripped off.. i would stop playing.

If you want to betray me Mondblut and Coldcrow, I would suggest subbing for me instead, and you can do it now

1) I would never do that unless I was dead and that was an ally/good player/nice guy fighting/sympathetic to my cause in that game.
2) I would never do that.
3) If I got "ripped off" by said player, I would never make a favorable deal for them in another game.
4) To enumerate: Let's say I gave someone 100 blood slaves etc. because I wanted them to use them to cast horrors(or whatever) against an enemy and do my dirty work. I'd first recognize the risk of the deal and hopefully only do it if I didn't need those things. Then if I later found out they did jack shit, I'd be pissed(and annoyed at myself), but would probably never trust that player again.
5) I would never do that.

 

[Isiloon]

I gave him blood slaves to summon demons, which he could use to betray me. Instead of summing dark vines for myself, which aren't as good as Lankan summons, especially with his bless.

You wouldn't ever do that, but I did, on condition he's my permanent ally. We play differently, that's what make mplayer fun. You haven't really said anything constructive except your point of view. I've shared mine. Like I said if you think my point of view is bullshit that's fine, I'll play differently next game and maybe Mondblut can sub me this game since Lanka is pretty dead minus their two squads of sacreda.

With respect to your other points.. I would do the same, but in this case it's pretty fucking core to the happenings of the last half of the game and I explicitly said permanent as an attribute of other conditions and they both agreed.

 

[LucidTactics]

I gave him blood slaves to summon demons, which he could use to betray me. Instead of summing dark vines for myself, which aren't as good as Lankan summons, especially with his bless.

You wouldn't ever do that, but I did, on condition he's my permanent ally.

Lmao. I wouldnt ever do that. The only time i might... is when they have a good incentive to not betray you - because they are deeply locked in a war with a common enemy... and if they do betray you... well thats a risk you took trusting someone dumb/crafty enough to accept a """"""""permanent""""""""" alliance. It makes me smile to think of them backstabbing you -- MP is like the highlander, in the end... there can be only one.

 

[KoolNoodles]

Well look, I see where you are coming from, and those are good deals to make to get "allies", as temporary as those are in these sorts of games. I just wouldn't trust any diplomatic deal(and this is what it is no matter what anyone says) to be permanent, and you shouldn't either.

There are times when diplomacy is pretty ironclad, because the player you are dealing with knows they are screwed unless they accept or it's an obviously beneficial arrangement for all parties. But that can all change, and will. The "permanent" part is what bothers me, and why you would think that means anything.

To recap: I would absolutely make some sort of deal similar to that to gain allies. I would even keep feeding them gems/items/gold/goodies to keep them "happy". I just wouldn't expect anything permanent. And neither should the players on the other side of the deal.

 

[sqeecoo]

Wait, Isiloon, you're not really subbing out are you? I hope not.

I'd say that I agree with KoolNoodles that breaking this kind of vassalage is definitely not against the rules like breaking a trade. But the if vassalage deal was made in the spirit of fun, not competition (cause it's not really effective competitively if it's not against the rules to break it), and it should be honored in the spirit of fun as well. While not illegal, breaking it is more than just a ingame betrayal that no-one should hold against you in future games, it's an actual real dick move. On the other hand, if the vassal only went along with it to survive from a competitive perspective, you can't fault him for breaking it later.

EDIT: Or let me try to put it this way: it's intended (from Isiloon's perception at least) as a meta-game deal, "I let you live, you forfeit the your chance of solo victory to stay in it and we have fun together". Still not binding according to the rules, but made outside of the confines of the game and its competition, where anything goes and the purpose of diplomacy is to get you closer to victory.

 

[Isiloon]

I have some sort of 'alliance' e.g. with Mictlan. We never said or discussed it being permanent because we both understand at some point, though not soon, we will compete.

If I explicitly say "by accepting this deal, you abandon your intention of winning and support me permanently" and they agree, and I gift them heaps of shit because e.g. Fomoria can make better use of air/death and Lanka make better use of blood... Then that really becomes a self defeating strategy only because people override "permanent" with "it's not convention and unenforceable"

I agree that taking vassals is not a competitive strategy if they can betray it, if they can't then I would argue it's better.. which is what I'm trying and I think it adds intrigue to the game. hence I wouldn't continue playing this game and if either of them wants to betray me in the future you can sub me out now.

I believe permanent means permanent

 

[Isiloon]

cause it's not really effective competitively if you can break it

Yeah this is the key part... I mean yeah the whole game is for fun, but I chose to offer/demand vassalage to
A) keep people in the game
B) saw it as better than war because instead of risking assets I gain assets
C) I think multiple perma-allied nations with different magic paths is stronger than one big one, although it doesn't help with throne win which I think is super lame anyway
D) I've subbed in another game where I was told I have a permanent alliance with someone because they coinvested into a global... So it's not like it never happens, and it's not first time I've had vassals, I've been one myself twice

 

[KoolNoodles]

cause it's not really effective competitively if you can break it

Yeah this is the key part... I mean yeah the whole game is for fun, but I chose to offer/demand vassalage to
A) keep people in the game
B) saw it as better than war because instead of risking assets I gain assets
C) I think multiple perma-allied nations with different magic paths is stronger than one big one.
D) I've subbed in another game where I was told I have a permanent alliance with someone because they coinvested into a global... So it's not like it never happens, and it's not first time I've had vassals, I've been one myself twice

Well it certainly has made my game worse.

 

[coldcrow]

Boohoo, Noodles. Must I remind you of you turning me down long ago, when I told you of the greatness and cunning of the green men. Now they are on your doorsteps, totally crushing you so that your god has to flee and deal with insignificant fomorian rabble. 'Tis a sad story, indeed.

 

[coldcrow]

I dont have a "permanent arrangement" with anyone except Lanka and Fomoria, who since we made that deal I've given them both stuff - I would sub out/go AI if they backstabbed me after I fed them both

Seriously? Is that how you want to end this? Can't take the heat? Not that any betrayal from my part has taken or will take place. Also I have yet to see any of this feeding.

PS: Also why this sudden drama. Isn't systematic backstabbing and rotating alliances part of this game?

PPS:

mondblut and coldcrow should be ashamed really

You and R'lyeh reap the biggest profits of the storm, despite your constant whining about the evil empire of Chaos Pan you honor the NAP. Also we had a conversation where you told me to calm down, well it does seem that you need to

 

[KoolNoodles]

Boohoo, Noodles. Must I remind you of you turning me down long ago, when I told you of the greatness and cunning of the green men. Now they are on your doorsteps, totally crushing you so that your god has to flee and deal with insignificant fomorian rabble. 'Tis a sad story, indeed.

I made some diplo mistakes, it's true. Not my best game, in that regard. :D