The Nameless Pun
Unwanted
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2015
- Messages
- 224
Now you tell me how you got those conclusions. Tell me and prove me you're not speaking out of your assAnd you're butthurt fanboy.
Now you tell me how you got those conclusions. Tell me and prove me you're not speaking out of your assAnd you're butthurt fanboy.
Your greatest analytical feat was a 5-sentences post about the game being linear (bullshit), open-ended spatial design (whatever that means), 0% meaningful choices and consequences (apparently it's the only type of C&C you can grasp) and hr being no different in terms of level design (just compare the naval shipyards level, with the outer sections, inner sections and various decks of the ship to explore, with any level hr has to offer). You bet your ass I'm missing your point, if there's any at all.Prove what? You didn't disprove any of what said to begin with. You either said things that i've already agreed with, attacked things i didn't said, argued semantics and threw a hissy fit.
You also missed the context, which is comparison with HR and fact even though DX is better, when counting sum of it's parts, design wise it's not superior by miles.
At some point I'll have to read all the threads from the pre-2010 days of the codex to figure out how that dogma emerged that C&C can only be about story and world reactivity rather than gameplay. I'm not even trolling, I honestly don't understand how an entire forum could agree that Fallout is a fun game and conclude from that that gameplay C&C isn't C&C.It has 0%, and i will repeat this, fucking ZERO meaningful choices and consequences, unless you're ''omg, this guy made different reaction, when i entered the room via sewers so choice, much wow'' faggot.
Deus Ex is the only game to consistently implement different solutions in every situation you encounter. You see an obstacle, you can use your leg augs to jump over it, or use your strength aug to move objects and build some high shit to climb, or find another route to bypass the obstacle. If you can find one single game that for every environmental puzzle encounter gives you as much freedom of choice as dx, I'd gladly shut up and leave this discussion. Approaching objectives from different vantage points is not the same, you are just changing spatial orientation, then proceeding to slaughter the enemy in the same fucking way. Hell, I'm not even talking about the bloody combat, I'm talking about non combat situations and you can bet your ass far cry doesn't have the same amount of different choices to approach different situations. And no, it is not linear, hell every game is linear since you have to go from point A to point B, the difference is the amount of different paths you can take and integrating rpg elements with different problem solving scenarios is the real challenge.Yes, DX has bigger levels. Did i deny that. Bigger levels are nice, no doubt. Core design principles are still same.
If you think that DX is not linear, because you can ''try different approach'' like sneaking through vent, using rocket launcher or hacking a bot, i have bad news for you. A lot of action games both old and new has that. Was FarCry non-linear, because you could approach objectives from different vantage points (spatial open endedness)? Did it have C&C, because of that? No. it was still on-rails shooter and so is DX. It's not a corridor shooter, but that's it.
I don't think DX is entirely devoid of disconnected levels or "rat mazes", but overall it's more coherent than HR.You need to replay DX again if you think it's innocent of this. It's a huge, rambling kitchen sink of a game that doesn't seem all that coherent in retrospect. You visit: Some naval base and a ship you go on to? A graveyard with an Illuminati guy hiding in a tomb? Catacombs in Paris with French student rioters? A whole bunch of science labs? A gas station out in the middle of nowhere? What was all that stuff for again? In the end, you wonder why you couldn't just nuke Area 51 and go directly there, skipping all the Ambrosia stuff.
HR had at least 2, but usually 3 or more routes/styles of solutions to most areas, yet when it's done there it's ''hamfisted'' or ''too obvious''.Deus Ex is the only game to consistently implement different solutions in every situation you encounter. You see an obstacle, you can use your leg augs to jump over it, or use your strength aug to move objects and build some high shit to climb, or find another route to bypass the obstacle. If you can find one single game that for every environmental puzzle encounter gives you as much freedom of choice as dx, I'd gladly shut up and leave this discussion.
At some point I'll have to read all the threads from the pre-2010 days of the codex to figure out how that dogma emerged that C&C can only be about story and world reactivity rather than gameplay. I'm not even trolling, I honestly don't understand how an entire forum could agree that Fallout is a fun game and conclude from that that gameplay C&C isn't C&C.It has 0%, and i will repeat this, fucking ZERO meaningful choices and consequences, unless you're ''omg, this guy made different reaction, when i entered the room via sewers so choice, much wow'' faggot.
No big surprises here. It did a poor job of connecting plot events, people, and overall locations to the specific levels you navigate and things you do.
You need to replay DX again if you think it's innocent of this. It's a huge, rambling kitchen sink of a game that doesn't seem all that coherent in retrospect. You visit: Some naval base and a ship you go on to? A graveyard with an Illuminati guy hiding in a tomb? Catacombs in Paris with French student rioters? A bunch of science labs that have something called a "Universal Constructor" which is supposed to be important until it isn't? A gas station out in the middle of nowhere? What was all that stuff for again? In the end, you wonder why you couldn't just nuke Area 51 and go directly there, skipping all the Ambrosia stuff.
HR had at least 2, but usually 3 or more routes/styles of solutions to most areas, yet when it's done there it's ''hamfisted'' or ''too obvious''.
I don't understand this at all. Deus Ex is probably the best game that I've played when it comes combining story and gameplay, always providing an excellent reason on why you're doing what you're doing and never resorting to obvious filler or "gamey" sequences whose presence in the game isn't justified by the story. Even the side quests are tied seamlessly into the main narrative so that it never feels like you're doing stuff just for the sake of XP or whatever, but to achieve something that actually serves a purpose in the game world. The actual story does follow a kitchen sink approach (I think Warren Spector said in an interview that they were speficially trying to cram as many conspiracies into the game as possible), but the execution is very coherent, and it never feels like they included stuff just for the coolness factor alone. Some replays are clearly in order, indeed.You need to replay DX again if you think it's innocent of this. It's a huge, rambling kitchen sink of a game that doesn't seem all that coherent in retrospect. You visit: Some naval base and a ship you go on to? A graveyard with an Illuminati guy hiding in a tomb? Catacombs in Paris with French student rioters? A bunch of science labs that have something called a "Universal Constructor" which is supposed to be important until it isn't? A gas station out in the middle of nowhere? What was all that stuff for again? In the end, you wonder why you couldn't just nuke Area 51 and go directly there, skipping all the Ambrosia stuff.No big surprises here. It did a poor job of connecting plot events, people, and overall locations to the specific levels you navigate and things you do.
I played HR multiple times, always without the object highlighting, and found no problem whatsoever (or maybe I actually missed a ton of stuff but didn't realize it). It's true, though, that the different routes were blatantly obvious almost every single time. Do you take the door in front of you, the vent ten feet away from you, or maybe go for the breakable wall twenty feet away? The tyranny of choice. There was barely any exploration to speak of, unless you think that crawling through all those vents qualifies.It totally was. One of those 2 routes were usually highlighted vent coverings, or highlighted breakable walls. And don't give me that "but you can turn it off!" shit because the game was not designed with doing so in mind and it shows should you actually turn it off. You've got a desk absolutely strewn with static clutter and somewhere on it is one interactive candy bar. Playing where's wally/waldo in every. single. frame of exploration is not fun. Anyhow even if you do turn it off, the optional routes are still too hamfisted and obvious, like they were added carelessly last minute to meet the quota. Half the game you spend blasting/sneaking through tight office levels anyway, who on the design team though that'd be a good idea? Only in the HUBs does it come close to Deus Ex's superior level design principles. Anyway, in the game's credit there was a couple of well done levels, and overall it could have been worse. As far as modern level design goes, Human Revolution is up there with the best, which is pretty sad given how thoroughly flawed it is.
the execution is very coherent, and it never feels like they included stuff just for the coolness factor alone.
It wasn't random, they were going to nuke Vandenburg.You break into a random missile silo and nuke Area 51.
So? The plot of Deus Ex is unashamedly pulp at times, and it makes no real effort to hide it. The game does give you a reason for doing it, though.20 minutes before the end of the game, you break into a random missile silo and nuke Area 51. That's a Call of Duty AAAwesome plot development. We would have laughed at it if it happened in a modern game.
It wasn't random, they were going to nuke Vandenburg.You break into a random missile silo and nuke Area 51.
Terrorists taking over the Statue of Liberty is Call of Duty AAAwesome plot development that would make you laugh in a modern game, and it happens in the very first mission.
A group of people belonging to the wealthy elite creating an artificial virus to help them into world domination is something from a bad B movie.
You've got Illuminati, men in black, massive underground complexes, secret laboratories, "aliens", Area 51, and big and small conspiracies everywhere you look, and at the end you get to decide the fate of the entire world.
And of course they planned to put one level on the moon, which probably doesn't need any further comments.
Yeah, you could say the game gives you "curve-ball plot developments", but you might as well just admit that you're completely tone-deaf. The setting is over-the-top all the way from the opening cutscene (but it still plays it all completely straight, which is great), but you shouldn't confuse it with how the story and the gameplay are merged. As has already been mentioned, these plot developments don't come out of nowhere, as they're usually hinted at much earlier in the game, often several times, and they're all in line with the rest of the setting. Launching a nuke is pretty low-key in this context, especially considering that at that point you've pretty much reached the endgame.
Infinitron said:I made a comment in response to somebody who said that Deus Ex's plot was more memorable than HR's (literally more memorable, that is, easier to recall, easier to comprehend in retrospect).
New York and Hong Kong form about two thirds of the game, and depending on who you ask, the highlight of New York might be either Liberty Island, Hell's Kitchen, the UNATCO facility, or the naval shipyards. Hell, it might even be Battery Park, which is a small but memorable early-game area. Even in the last couple of places people have been bringing up areas like Vandenberg as prime examples of the level design of Deus Ex. For some people the highlight of the game seems to be the Ocean Lab. Different people remember different things, but it just shows how much good stuff there actually is in Deus Ex.My impression is that people tend to remember the highlights of Deus Ex. New York, Hong Kong.