Game News Divinity: Original Sin has sold 160,000 copies, already approaching profitability

[buzz]

Why play Chess when you can play Pong instead?

On the other hand, why play a shitty version of chess when you can play actual chess?

While I personally am not a big fan of real-time combat (mainly because I suck at timing and doing things under pressure), I can see why some people push for it. RPGs are not exactly the most tactical games out there. They're a kitchen-sink type of game with a mix of uncompetitive turn-based combat and interactive story-telling. Computer RPGs themselves don't really try to emulate the tabletop ones (no human GM, no focus on cooperative interactive adventure,no illusion of being capable to get off the rails established by a rigid structure of a normal computer game etc.) so one could argue that it's fairly worthless trying to emulate the other aspects anyway.

That's why probably between a game where a thief is only useful because of the backstab ability and removing traps and a game where you can pretty much play as Garrett, most would prefer the later. Even if it's in real time. The former one I could play with a dice and some paper with my friends in real life, the later one is more or less exclusive to computers (unless I go stealing shit for fun).

 

[Athelas]

TOEE does have counterspell and interrupt mechanics.

Knew you were gonna go for that. Yes, but it doesn't work like I was talking about.

Yes, the enemy can interrupt you if you're right next to him and he gets an AoO. Yes, you can do the same. Yes, there are counterspells, but tell me: can you, the player, interrupt the mage after you see him start casting the spell? No. Can the enemy change tactics and do the same to you after you've already started casting your spell? No. Without preparing a counterspell and without AoO, it's not going to happen. Those moments of tension I was talking about? They don't exist there. Sure, it's cool to have the chess-like element of thinking a few moves ahead, but I think it'd be nice to have those options be in addition to multi-turn spellcasting, rather than replacing it.

edit: *sigh* ok: lol all troika games are broken anyway :/

What you see as a weakness of TB combat, I see as a weakness of RT combat. Because for all my AoE spells it means I don't know when exactly my mage will start casting. Usually 80% of the enemies will have left the blast radius before the spell hits, or my fighters will have run into the radius, or I made them stay but judged the distance badly and they get caught anyway. The ratio between view distance and AoE radius is another issue which compounded those problems. In effect, I hardly used any AoE spells which could hurt my guys.
Tension where I don't know if my caster may be interupted --> good (and part of ToEE)
Tension where I don't know if my spell might totally whiff or even hurt my guys more because of lack of nano-management --> bad

Multi-turn casting is of course an interesting idea.

Why is that a bad thing? Having to make judgments where the AoE spell will land relative to your partymembers and enemies is one of the most fun aspects of say, the IE games. It's a layer of strategy that's generally missing from turn-based combat, with a risk-reward mechanic (do I risk hitting my partymembers or do I risk not hitting the enemy?). A turn-based system with simultaneous actions would pretty much be my ideal combat system for an RPG.

And interrupting spellcasters was much more interesting in the IE games, where casting time was a factor (and different casting time for spells of different levels).

 

[Mangoose]

Why play Chess when you can play Pong instead?

On the other hand, why play a shitty version of chess when you can play actual chess?

While I personally am not a big fan of real-time combat (mainly because I suck at timing and doing things under pressure), I can see why some people push for it. RPGs are not exactly the most tactical games out there. They're a kitchen-sink type of game with a mix of uncompetitive turn-based combat and interactive story-telling. Computer RPGs themselves don't really try to emulate the tabletop ones (no human GM, no focus on cooperative interactive adventure,no illusion of being capable to get off the rails established by a rigid structure of a normal computer game etc.) so one could argue that it's fairly worthless trying to emulate the other aspects anyway.

That's why probably between a game where a thief is only useful because of the backstab ability and removing traps and a game where you can pretty much play as Garrett, most would prefer the later. Even if it's in real time. The former one I could play with a dice and some paper with my friends in real life, the later one is more or less exclusive to computers (unless I go stealing shit for fun).

For me it depends on whether I'm controlling a party or I'm controlling a single character. Having timing be a (major) issue in a real-time party game is too annoying micromanagement. Playing a single character - especially with a first-person or over-the-shoulder control system - makes it a lot simpler to focus on timing. Actually, I wouldn't even mind giving squad commands in a real time single-player/over-the-shoulder game IF those commands weren't highly micromanage-based (and your team AI is sufficient). I'm picturing Republic Commando/Ghost Recon/Rainbow Six in terms of that type of squad command.

Now actually I do agree that having casting time would be tactically interesting in a turn-based game. In terms of TOEE though, Spectacle is right in that it wasn't a conscious design decision rather than being a prior 3E PNP decision.

 

[Sir Dupre]

Someone on the Gamestar-Forums spoke about 700.000 sold copies until now. Could that be true, what do you think?

 

[Shannow]

[snip]
Why is that a bad thing? Having to make judgments where the AoE spell will land relative to your partymembers and enemies is one of the most fun aspects of say, the IE games. It's a layer of strategy that's generally missing from turn-based combat, with a risk-reward mechanic (do I risk hitting my partymembers or do I risk not hitting the enemy?). A turn-based system with simultaneous actions would pretty much be my ideal combat system for an RPG.

What risk/reward? The spells are balanced for TB combat. The risk is being interupted or the enemy evading or the dmg dice being really low. Since RTwP added lots more risks without additional reward the other spells of the same level that do not come with additional risks are automatically superior in general. (Sure, with luck, lots of nano-management they still might sometimes be the best choice in certain situations.)
Of course it also depends on your play-style preferences, so let's just agree to completely disagree.

And interrupting spellcasters was much more interesting in the IE games,

Considering counterspell and (concentration) skill checks...no, not realy.

where casting time was a factor (and different casting time for spells of different levels).

Yes, casting time is a nice mechanic, that could generally see more use. (It can be implemented in TB systems, though it might be less fun there.)

 

[Metro]

Gold box games had spell interrupt. Had to nuke those damn priests before they got off hold person.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

And interrupting spellcasters was much more interesting in the IE games,

Considering counterspell and (concentration) skill checks...no, not realy.

BG: "Oh, crap, I have to interrupt that mage before that spell goes off. Let's see, do i move my fighter to intercept him? No, I need him to hold off the other enemies. What about my archer? Nope, the mage is protected from normal missiles and I'm all out of magic ammo. And my mage is in the middle of casting his last spell... Oh, I know! I'll use my cleric to cast hold person. Will the roll succeed though...? Yes! It worked!"

TOEE: "I bet enemy the mage is going to cast something next turn. Guess I'll either put a fighter next to him or ready a counter spell. Yawn."

It's not an issue of RTWP vs turn-based. The same situations could occur in a multi-turn casting system.

 

[jdinatale]

Someone on the Gamestar-Forums spoke about 700.000 sold copies until now. Could that be true, what do you think?

Wouldn't that be borderline miraculous? I don't see 700,000 in a month happening.

 

[Hobz]

BG: "Oh, crap, I have to interrupt that mage before that spell goes off. Let's see, do i move my fighter to intercept him? No, I need him to hold off the other enemies. What about my archer? Nope, the mage is protected from normal missiles and I'm all out of magic ammo. And my mage is in the middle of casting his last spell... Oh, I know! I'll use my cleric to cast hold person. Will the roll succeed though...? Yes! It worked!"

TOEE: "I bet enemy the mage is going to cast something next turn. Guess I'll either put a fighter next to him or ready a counter spell. Yawn."

It's not an issue of RTWP vs turn-based. The same situations could occur in a multi-turn casting system.

You're portraying the situation in such an unbiased way you're definitely making a point.

The "Yawn" is a nice touch, it really emphasise how much casting a counter spell is boring compared to casting one of many interrupts available.

I also liked the part about moving a fighter to intercept, I could literally see the battle unfold in my mind, while I almost fell asleep when you mentioned "putting a fighter next to it" maybe you could have added a "yawn" here too, but it's no big deal.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

You're portraying the situation in such an unbiased way you're definitely making a point.

The "Yawn" is a nice touch, it really emphasise how much casting a counter spell is boring compared to casting one of many interrupts available.

I also liked the part about moving a fighter to intercept, I could literally see the battle unfold in my mind, while I almost fell asleep when you mentioned "putting a fighter next to it" maybe you could have added a "yawn" here too, but it's no big deal.

These are all good points and great suggestions. They really add a lot to the discussion. It's good that you're not getting all butthurt about me writing "yawn". That wouldn't be childish at all. It's also great that you value my being so unbiased as being unbiased matters so much in a discussion about a 16 year old game series on an internet forum where I am clearly stating my own bias and the reasons for it.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

I really enjoy reading this type of argument, insufferable bastards exchanging sarcastic remarks like angsty teens is definitely preferable over a real discussion, passive aggressiveness ftw!~

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

So, a vain attempt at getting us back on topic: any word on the number of sales so far?

 

[Jaesun]

I don't think we will hear anything for a while until they reach a significant milestone of unit sales.

 

[set]

When the game hits $5 USD, I could totally see them making 50k - 100k sales in one of the holiday sales. That's a lot of cash flow for the size of company, right? I think the number of units moved won't be significant after a while, provided they can continue to make the game relevant and attractive during sale periods.

 

[Jaesun]

Yeah. The next BIG STEAM sale will probably bode very well for this, for those that are probably interested, but want to get the game for a lesser price. With all the attention to it, it in theory, should do fairly well.

 

[Metro]

We've seen enough numbers to qualify this as a commercial success financially worthy of a follow-up.

 

[RK47]

We've seen enough numbers to qualify this as a commercial success financially worthy of a follow-up.

ONE MELON OR NUFFINK!

 

[t]

We've seen enough numbers to qualify this as a commercial success financially worthy of a follow-up.

ONE MELON OR NUFFINK!

R00fles!

 

[JasonNH]

If ForkTong's latest tweet is anything to go by, it seems like things are going well.

 

[JarlFrank]

TOEE does have counterspell and interrupt mechanics.

Knew you were gonna go for that. Yes, but it doesn't work like I was talking about.

Well, it works like it does in proper D&D rules which are turn based, so it's the more faithful D&D adaptation.

 

[Mangoose]

Having casting take multiple turns is an interesting gameplay mechanic. At the same time it's not necessarily significantly better or worse than a different design choice. There are many ways to do things right, there are many ways to do things wrong; and I think (for example) both 2E casting time versus 3E counterspell/interrupt are both on the "right" side of the scale. I think they both add sufficient tactical challenge in different ways.

I would say that casting taking multiple rounds in a RTWP skews the challenge towards player visual-spatial prediction and player reflexes (I'm not saying there is no tactical aspect, I'm just saying there's a skew), whereas casting taking multiple turns in a turn-based game is more-so a purely tactical challenge.

I prefer the latter; as I explained earlier I don't really care for reflexes and similar real-time challenges in a party-controlled game, but if I were controlling a single character only then I actually prefer having more physical challenges (as controlling one character tends to limit tactical variety, so I need different mechanics to challenge myself). Again this is subjective (though I do hypothesize that most players would have similar thoughts).

Anyways, as long as the combat system as a whole has a sufficient combination of thoughtful mechanics for tactical/strategic complexity it's fine. And even that is a very general statement that ignores how sometimes one mechanic, while tactically interesting on its lonesome on paper, may not interact well with other mechanic design choices when the whole combat system is put together.

 

[JarlFrank]

I agree with Mangoose completely. Single character should be action-y RT, party based should be tactical and TB.

That's just how it works best.

 

[Zed]

I agree with Mangoose completely. Single character should be action-y RT, party based should be tactical and TB.

That's just how it works best.

I have never played a single-character game with TB combat. Maybe it's cool.

 

[tuluse]

I agree with Mangoose completely. Single character should be action-y RT, party based should be tactical and TB.

That's just how it works best.

I have never played a single-character game with TB combat. Maybe it's cool.

Neo Scavanger

[also Fallout series if you don't recruit any companions]

 

[Spectacle]

Neo Scavanger

[also Fallout series if you don't recruit any companions]

Also pretty much every roguelike in existence...