Game News Divinity: Original Sin Kickstarter Update #65: New Patch + Larian Devline

[Korron]

Ideas are cheap, and I'm a talentless hack.

I will say TToN probably sold itself on the promise of something different just as much as nostalgia,and was the highest earning KS rpg yet. If one of these big companies used KS then most of the risk is up front on a new idea even if it's not profitable. Especially now that they've all setup engines and workflows to make these games.

 

[Volrath]

You do know that one of the ex-admins, namely Vault Dweller, is the creator of Age of Decadence?

Yeah... And look how that turned out

 

[Athelas]

Ideas are cheap, and I'm a talentless hack.

I will say TToN probably sold itself on the promise of something different just as much as nostalgia,and was the highest earning KS rpg yet. If one of these big companies used KS then most of the risk is up front on a new idea even if it's not profitable. Especially now that they've all setup engines and workflows to make these games.

T:ToN was pitched as a trademarked Torment game about a blank slate quasi-immortal who must travel a strange world seeking the answer to the question 'what can change the nature of a man?' 'what does one life matter?' To claim its' Kickstarter success proves the masses are willing to embrace something novel and unconventional is absurd, since it in fact proves the very opposite.

 

[Korron]

Ideas are cheap, and I'm a talentless hack.

I will say TToN probably sold itself on the promise of something different just as much as nostalgia,and was the highest earning KS rpg yet. If one of these big companies used KS then most of the risk is up front on a new idea even if it's not profitable. Especially now that they've all setup engines and workflows to make these games.

T:ToN was pitched as a trademarked Torment game about a blank slate quasi-immortal who must travel a strange world seeking the answer to the question 'what can change the nature of a man?' 'what does one life matter?' To claim its' Kickstarter success proves the masses are willing to embrace something novel and unconventional is absurd, since it in fact proves the very opposite.

Right.... That summary is a bit disingenuous. So your telling me people looked at a pitch for an entirely novel setting, and said, "Nope that has nothing to do with my interest in this game." PS:T is by its nature unconventional. That's what people backed. If what you suggest is true, then slap the name Torment on the next setting, and you can still make it be about anything you want (as Brian has suggested will happen going forward). If Obsidian, Larian, or InXile said we're taking our engine and doing something entirely unconventional in this weird setting how many of you that are predisposed to backing on KS wouldn't jump at that? Do we really think the tens of thousands of people backing these projects have different tastes then us? We're all part of the same niche, and I suspect TToN's success indicates we're hungry for something different.

 

[Athelas]

Right.... That summary is a bit disingenuous. So your telling me people looked at a pitch for an entirely novel setting, and said, "Nope that has nothing to do with my interest in this game." PS:T is by its nature unconventional. That's what people backed. If what you suggest is true, then slap the name Torment on the next setting, and you can still make it be about anything you want (as Brian has suggested will happen going forward). If Obsidian, Larian, or InXile said we're taking our engine and doing something entirely unconventional in this weird setting how many of you that are predisposed to backing on KS wouldn't jump at that? Do we really think the tens of thousands of people backing these projects have different tastes then us? We're all part of the same niche, and I suspect TToN's success indicates we're hungry for something different.

I thought it was fairly obvious what I meant. T:ToN's success was largely because of being able to bank on the Planescape: Torment brand/nostalgia. Would some random pitch for a 'completely whacky and non-traditional subversive RPG' have been as much of a success without billing itself as the spiritual successor to PS:T and being able to use Torment in the title (and possessing the trademark)? I doubt it. If anything, T:ToN's Kickstarter success is an argument against the viability of experimental/unconventional RPG's, not for it.

Right.... That summary is a bit disingenuous.

It's not, that was a very accurate summary. In some ways, T:ToN is just as tied as convention as many of the other nostalgia projects, it's just that these conventions are very much welcomed by you and me.

If you need evidence, look no further than the massive butthurt caused by trying to remedy one of PS:T biggests flaws - the vote over the combat system. A large contingent of the backers was upset over changing one aspect of the original that was incidental to the experience (the lousy combat).

 

[Korron]

Athelas
I think I need to make a distinction. I'm not talking CoD success or mass appeal. I'm saying any of the previously mentioned companies can probably front load a lot of the risk of trying something different on a KS, and that there are probably enough of us in this niche audience that are interested enough to let them try. I do think that once a project like this gets started up, RPS and all these other sites would be shitting all over themselves to talk about how RPG "legends" are making such novel experiences, and giving them high praise just like they did for DOS because it hearkens back to the old days (i.e. the pitch basically being this ain't no skyrim). I don't think it would be unreasonable to suspect that it might be lucrative for one of these companies to do just that, and in the worst case scenario they'll keep their employees paid and lose little to no money in production cost through KS and early access.

I think there's a lot of room for the unconventional with a pitch of dude has amnesia, and must answer philosophical question.

I'd say RTwP or TB isn't evidence of people wanting something conventional as much as it is a preference for a type of combat system. I hate that debate and don't want to get into it though.

 

[Athelas]

I'd say RTwP or TB isn't evidence of people wanting something conventional as much as it is a preference for a type of combat system. I hate that debate and don't want to get into it though.

You misunderstood. I was pointing out that many of T:ToN's backers wanted RTwP because PS:T had RTwP, even though it was terrible.

Also, D:OS does have (somewhat) novel/rare mechanics, namely in its environmental interaction. Yet most of the positive write-ups were about how it was 'a modern Baldur's Gate' or 'a turn-based Diablo'.

 

[Korron]

I'd say RTwP or TB isn't evidence of people wanting something conventional as much as it is a preference for a type of combat system. I hate that debate and don't want to get into it though.

You misunderstood. I was pointing out that many of T:ToN's backers wanted RTwP because PS:T had RTwP, even though it was terrible.

Also, D:OS does have (somewhat) novel/rare mechanics, namely in its environmental interaction. Yet most of the positive write-ups were about how it was 'a modern Baldur's Gate' or 'a turn-based Diablo'.

No I understand your point I just disagree that it's evidence of what you claim. We all mostly view combat as a binary choice that's integral to being an RPG. Preference for a combat style isn't evidence that we don't want innovation in the RPG genre even if people used the poor argument of this is how it was as justification for what they want. I agree there are probably limits to how unconventional you can be though. We've all been clamoring for a new setting in this thread only though.

 

[Ladonna]

The concept was put to the test some years ago when Planescape Torment was released. I bought the game new off the shelf, but by all accounts, it was certainly not much of a seller.

 

[Korron]

The concept was put to the test some years ago when Planescape Torment was released. I bought the game new off the shelf, but by all accounts, it was certainly not much of a seller.

I see your point and raise you, there is a difference between initial sales vs being profitable and having a long tail. Also there is a difference in how games are talked about now on the internet vs 1999. The hype train is real, and critical praise can help sales. I just don't buy that doing something different takes on a huge risk if your dev costs are preemptively funded. It might even be a winning strategy. Also shouldn't this model of development be used for more than getting that next story about orcs goblins and elves because I sure do like that isometric view?

 

[Cazzeris]

Lots of T:ToN backers didn't know a thing about PST. And if it's nostalgia what drives people to pledge so much, then why a spiritual successor to an average-selling RPG gets more attention than an unofficial sequel to Baldur's Gate 2, which was a huge success?

 

[Athelas]

Lots of T:ToN backers didn't know a thing about PST. And if it's nostalgia what drives people to pledge so much, then why a spiritual successor to an average-selling RPG gets more attention than an unofficial sequel to Baldur's Gate 2, which was a huge success?

Because the former (T:ToN) had the official brand and title and the latter (PoE) didn't? Besides, PS:T outsells BG2 on GOG nowadays.

 

[Cazzeris]

Lots of T:ToN backers didn't know a thing about PST. And if it's nostalgia what drives people to pledge so much, then why a spiritual successor to an average-selling RPG gets more attention than an unofficial sequel to Baldur's Gate 2, which was a huge success?

Because the former (T:ToN) had the official brand and title and the latter (PoE) didn't? Besides, PS:T outsells BG2 on GOG nowadays.

There's still a lot of people who bought the game just because it looks exotic and it uses Numenera's setting, most of them post on inXile's forums and make suggestions like these:

https://torment.uservoice.com/forum...83-expand-the-game-to-be-essentially-a-mmorpg
https://torment.uservoice.com/forum...s/6340540-blizzard-makin-cinematics-for-t-ton
https://torment.uservoice.com/forum...-lycanthropic-vampiric-or-similar-player-char

 

[Infinitron]

You guys are being pretty dumb. No, there is not some groundswell of RPG fans who want unconventional settings. Swords and sorcery are the bedrock of this genre and always will be. And honestly, I don't think you should be a fan of this genre if you can't deal with that.

(That's not to say it's not okay to prefer other settings, but if you hate, truly hate, generic high fantasy, then you're just in the wrong place.)

 

[Korron]

You guys are being pretty dumb. No, there is not some groundswell of RPG fans who want unconventional settings. Swords and sorcery are the bedrock of this genre and always will be. And honestly, I don't think you should be a fan of this genre if you can't deal with that.

(That's not to say it's not okay to prefer other settings, but if you hate, truly hate, generic high fantasy, then you're just in the wrong place.)

The diversity in tabletop and RPGs (not computer) is a testament to not having to accept generic high fantasy, and still appreciate mechanics and roleplaying. I don't hate it, but I'm bored to death of the writing and objectives that arise from it. RPGs are my bread and butter, but I have been expanding the type of games I play because it's just not as compelling to help the villager with the monster attack anymore. I'm tired of fucking the same girl in a different dress.

As far as a groundswell of folks not wanting new experiences, what does your coming here to say just that really add? Why isn't TToN an argument otherwise?

 

[Darth Roxor]

The diversity in tabletop and RPGs

and yet most of it started with sword and sorcery high fantasy

 

[Mangoose]

I just want a setting that has never been done, and for Larian to attempt a more mature storyline. If they use the same engine and do anything but fantasy, SciFi, or post-apoc I'll be a happy camper.

So you want them to make MCA's High school simulator?

Oh come on. Do I really need to clarify that it be within the realms of marketable?

Yes. Please explain to us this incredibly marketable setting they should use.

I certainly think it would need to be something fantastical, satisfy a desire for escapism, and is not in the realm of the mundane. Maybe there is a compelling story to be told in a HS setting, but I don't know if I could force myself to be interested even if a game with this setting received critical praise. I suspect that sentiment would be shared by many RPG players. I'm burned out with the same settings I've played over the past decade or so. European fantasy games using the dark eye or larian fantasy settings are probably more egregious than most RPGs as far as not being particularly divergent from the bullshit D&D high fantasy pulp fiction I subjected myself to as a teenager. I largely clicked through the dialogue in DOS as fast as I could. Can you honestly tell me you're not tired of the same stuff over and over again? I'm not going to presume to say my ideas are best, but a few ideas I find appealing off the top of my head for a setting?

Western
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
Prehistoric (Jurassic or Pleistocene)
Any fantasy setting that doesn't use goblins, orcs, & elves, and isn't based on previously established fairy tales or lore
17th Century Piracy

I freely acknowledge I can't quantify the "cool" factor of any particular setting, but can you really tell me a HS setting would be more appealing than any of the above mentioned? Was there really a post-apocalyptic setting before fallout in the CRPG realm? Was there really a planescape setting in the CRPG realm before PST? Both of those games receive critical praise now, and I suspect there is interest in something new. I admit I'm speculating, but are you really content with the same as it always was approach that these KS backed games are taking now that we've proven there is a sustainable audience to appease? That being said, isn't the persona series fairly popular and in a HS setting? So maybe I'm full of shit.

Autism detected.

 

[Mangoose]

You guys are being pretty dumb. No, there is not some groundswell of RPG fans who want unconventional settings. Swords and sorcery are the bedrock of this genre and always will be. And honestly, I don't think you should be a fan of this genre if you can't deal with that.

(That's not to say it's not okay to prefer other settings, but if you hate, truly hate, generic high fantasy, then you're just in the wrong place.)

The diversity in tabletop and RPGs (not computer) is a testament to not having to accept generic high fantasy, and still appreciate mechanics and roleplaying. I don't hate it, but I'm bored to death of the writing and objectives that arise from it. RPGs are my bread and butter, but I have been expanding the type of games I play because it's just not as compelling to help the villager with the monster attack anymore. I'm tired of fucking the same girl in a different dress.

As far as a groundswell of folks not wanting new experiences, what does your coming here to say just that really add? Why isn't TToN an argument otherwise?

Storyfag detected.

 

[Mangoose]

This is a fan forum and a critic forum, not a developer forum. Although it might seem otherwise sometimes, the fan or critic is not in fact a latent or incipient game developer. They are orthogonal roles.

I thought they were isometric.

 

[Reapa]

does the patch make petrification permanent?

 

[Davaris]

It would be nice if someone from the Codex took part in the devline and mentioned the flaws in writing, setting and itemization.

Yeah, I know, I too would prefer if they just hired me as a writer and designer, but we have to take what we are offered.

Lets see...

If we hired you as the writer, someone else here as the coder, the graphics artist, producer, etc... Ummm wait? Why hasn't the codex created its own cRPG with all of this abundant talent?

And no... I am not being facetious, I see a lot of good comments and direction here on this site, why hasn't someone here stepped up, defined the codex view and brought to life a game that personifies it? I mean, seriously, you have the greatest gaming minds of the industry here fulfilling their inner demons with baited breath and you guys haven't capitalized on it? Seriously.... incoming capitalization... W...T...F...?

You have a culmination of like minds here seeking all the same thing, antagonizing over it, lamenting like bitches in heat and you guys... in all this time can't figure out how to put the square block into the fucking square hole?

Seriously? WHAT THE FUCK? I mean, you can pour out thousands of dollars for the next wishful project and you can provide infinite gaming commentary on what is and what is not of cRPGs and yet... in a market where cRPG gaming is dying, all you can do is bitch about the next indie game not quite achieving the rub off you were expecting? Seriously, step up... use all of this talent here or fade into obscurity.

Because most people do what you are doing now, which is propose instead of doing. Instead of proposing that someone else do something, how about you do something and report your progress? The Codex Workshop is waiting for you.