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Game News Divinity: Original Sin released on GOG

Grotesque

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It's like a big fuck you to all the backers that chose the physical version of the game.
Another piece of advice: next time keep it for yourself and act accordingly to your conclusions.
 

l3loodAngel

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"Don’t do anything physical," says Vincke, when I ask him about recommendations for his fellow developers who are thinking about using Kickstarter. "I would never again do all the boxed stuff, and I regret that we spent so much time on everything related to making a physical release happen."​

But how would they raise the big backer bucks without the boxed sets and physical rewards?

They likely won't, but judging from Swen's post it not economically feasible. There is no point in raising a lot of money if you are going to spend it on boxes, CDs, translations and not on the game itself.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I only buy boxed copies, so I'm quite disappointed by this announcement. And the Div OS collector's box is pretty damn awesome.
 

Charles-cgr

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Project: Eternity
Well I'm glad I got it. If a new no-physical trend is shaping up it may be one of the last opportunities. Except for Grimoire!
 

Zed

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they should go the star citizen route for their next game, creating their own portal along with the KS. maybe use the larian vault or something.
 

Metro

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Why?

And you physical fags need to get with the times. Boxed copies are dead. I'm sorry but you can no longer caress, cradle, and jizz on your cloth maps.
 

DarkUnderlord

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"Don’t do anything physical," says Vincke, when I ask him about recommendations for his fellow developers who are thinking about using Kickstarter. "I would never again do all the boxed stuff, and I regret that we spent so much time on everything related to making a physical release happen."
Bad, bad, bad idea.

Project Eternity:

Eternity_KickStarter.png


Almost half was raised just from adding "Physical Box, Collector's Box and Signed Collector's Box" alone (and no, I don't know why KickStarter's amount raised and number of backers is different than when you add up all the tiers manually).

Digital Backers only pledge $32 on average, while Physical backers pledge at least 4 times as much just for the box ($121 average from 9,060 backers if you only add up the basic boxed versions and ignore all the super high tiers). Also note that most of the money raised was where people got a copy of the game. The $5 "thanks" tier was hardly worth the effort; the first two digital tiers ($20 for early backers and $25 for those who came later) raised just over $1M; while the physical Box, Collector Box and Signed Collector Box raised over $1.1M.

Wasteland 2:

Wasteland2_KickStarter.png


Here, Wasteland 2 probably under-sold their digital copy by $5 - $10 (costing them about $300k) but again you can see most of the money goes straight into the tiers where people get a copy of the game. And while $500k was raised from the digital game only, look at the physical versions. $400k on the Standard box, over $500k on the Collector's Box and $300k on the Signed Collector's Box - all raising more than the digital only tiers. You could also say Wasteland 2 undersold their physical box at $50, another $15 there would've added $200k (all up they probably lost around $500k with low pricing, even if you factor in a 10% or 20% drop in number of purchases as a result).

Now look at Divinity: Original Sin:

DivinityOriginalSin.png


Wow, can you say too many fucking tiers? First thing I found putting this together was how all over the shop it was. There's no clear "Collector's Edition" listed in the rewards (along the right side where you choose), it just becomes "Box with printed manual and cloth map", which seems to be the standard box? Then it casually mentions a "KickStarter Box" and then gets confusing later as it just keeps repeating everything in the box rather than just saying "Collector's Edition" (in fact, there is no clear "Collector's Edition" tier).

EDIT: And... it helps if I add up the right columns.

The difference between D:OS and W2 and P:E is their really long ass list and extra digital crap (design a dog that talks to you and choose the 3 words it says, or would you rather have a potion with magical underpants and a digital portrait of your favourite porn star?), it's harder to tease out the people who wanted physicals. The lowest $65 "box with printed manual" tier only raised $13k, and for $10 more the same box but with digital map (who the fuck leaves a digital map out in the first place?) only had 47 backers. The $95 "box with cloth map" raised more, coming in at $33k, and the fact that there are 3x $95 tiers (2 of which are "physical") just got confusing.

I can certainly see how Larian would be looking at that, seeing the $25 (and the later $28), $40 and $65 digital only tiers raising the most and conclude "digital only!!". But the $40 tier is two copies of D:OS and the $65 includes another game as well (Dragon Commander). And, most importantly, there is no clear physical tier. Which tier do I choose if I want the "Standard Edition" box with printed manual and map? And which tier is the "Collector's Edition" box with cloth map and CD soundtrack? And where's the "signed box" tier? All that shit is either non-existent, unclear or buried in a pile of other shit which would've just made making their game harder to manage (given the spreadsheet we had to complete).

In fact, I'd say there's a huge risk that a "digital only" KickStarter could've failed because physical backers wouldn't be backing at all, losing half your revenue and making the KickStarter look like it may not get through, which would discourage late backers and may lead to a cancelled KickStarter - or just a barely successful one. And this is for a KickStarter that didn't raise all that much to begin with (compared with W2, P:E and Torment it only raised a third as much). In fact arguably, that's exactly what happened with D:OS. They potentially lost out on another $1M by not having clear physical tiers.

People who want Physical goodies are willing to pay, on average, 4 - 5 times more than those who want digital rewards only (and personally I'm eager to see one of those Torment statues).

Personally I would not give up on physical editions entirely, but I would give up on $60 standard physical editions. They should cost in the hundreds of dollars, and their production should be outsourced to a trusted party.
This. Here's how I'd do a KickStarter:

$25 Digital Copy: Get a digital copy of the game (including manual and map) on Steam / GOG + your name mentioned in the credits as a KickStarter supporter.
$40 2x Digital Copies: Get two digital copies (give one to a friend!) + your name in the credits.
$50 Digital Special Edition: Digital Copy tier + digital soundtrack + digital making of + digital concept art + other digital things.
$75 Standard Edition Box: Digital Special Edition tier + Box of game including printed manual and printed map.
$150 Collector's Edition Box: Digital Special Edition tier + Collector's Edition box (different design to standard) which includes CD Soundtrack, Cloth Map, Spiral bound printed manual, t-shirt and wall poster. Your name will be in a special part of the credits.
$250 Signed Collector's Edition Box: Collector's Edition Box tier only your cloth map is signed on the back by developers + your t-shirt is signed.
$500 Design a Character: Signed Collector's Edition tier + Design a character players will meet in-game, have input on dialogue + your name listed somewhere special in the credits.
$1,000 Design a Side-Quest: Signed Collector's Edition tier + Design a side-quest + your name listed somewhere special in the credits.
$2,500 Be in the Game: Signed Collector's Edition tier + send us your photo and we will make you a character in the game. + your name listed somewhere special in the credits.
$5,000 Design a Location: Signed Collector's Edition tier + design a location. Maybe a small town? Maybe a building? Includes 50x Digital Copies. + Your name up front in the loading screen.
$10,000 Community Tier: Just for communities! 100x Digital Copies to give-away, 1x Signed Collector's Edition Box, 5x Collector's Edition Boxes + we'll work with you to design something in-game as a thanks to your community support. This could be an encounter with an adventuring party, characters inside an inn, a Statue or something else! + Your community's name up front in the loading screen.​

And that'd be about it. The D:OS KickStarter is just confusing, whether you want a pet or a dialogue or some other crap that only you will ever see in-game.

BTW, if you really want the big bucks, offer in-game content. It sure worked on us and RPGWatch. :M
In-game content that everyone can see. Name in the credits at various tiers is great (everyone who backed the KickStarter should be in, otherwise why not wait until it comes out?). And if I'm designing a dialogue or creating a quest or something, I want everyone playing that game to see what I've done, not just those who enter a special code. It should also be modified by the developer's to be appropriate. Getting excel spreadsheets at the last minute to enter in lame, 2-part conversations isn't really worth it. You need shit like that for the one or two really big backers but not everyone.
 
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Crane

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath
At first I wondered why this required its own thread when D:OS already has a release thread. But then I read the OP and decided that the info Crooked Bee posted was helpful for those who haven't been following the already existing thread. Thank you for not simply having a long winded version of the thread's title as the OP.
 

PowerTorment

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Wow it is not a lot of people on the higher D:OS tiers. So to show off a bit:

* My signed box
* Signed concept art (front/back)
* Cloth map

1T2Kfwbocr5I



1T2LXxSYusIO


1T2LyKkfKy10


1T2MFX9SFleM
 

l3loodAngel

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"Don’t do anything physical," says Vincke, when I ask him about recommendations for his fellow developers who are thinking about using Kickstarter. "I would never again do all the boxed stuff, and I regret that we spent so much time on everything related to making a physical release happen."
Bad, bad, bad idea.

Almost half was raised just from adding "Physical Box, Collector's Box and Signed Collector's Box" alone (and no, I don't know why KickStarter's amount raised and number of backers is different than when you add up all the tiers manually).

Could be add-ons.

You ignore the fact that it's not the final amount the company gets. You have to subtract KS fees, sales/vat tax and actually produce physical goods. So we don't know how much money there is actually left for developers. In manufacturing physical goods quantity is the main way to receive profit. Low quantity + high quality =/= profit (in most cases). Manufacturing boxed sets for PE, WL2 or some other big project might be feasible and slightly profitable, while for DOS it might be unprofitable.

Another thing is that people who would not buy physical goods would likely buy digital version. AND that could mean much more money for developers.

Besides, you have a made a logical fallacy by attributing high level tiers to physical rewards. Designing a custom portrait, inn, a party or weapon should be digital. Or split even to not skew the calculation.
 
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Charles-cgr

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Project: Eternity
True that the high tiers, while they include the box, also include other (digital) things. While the box may weigh in on a backer's decision to choose that tier, those other things do as well and it is hard to say how many less of these tiers would have sold without the box.
 

Martius

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DarkUnderlord
Well, maybe by that he just means he wont do that alone in house? With next game there could be also similar deal like Obsidian made with Pillars of Eternity and Paradox (or InExile with Deep Silver)
 

l3loodAngel

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True that the high tiers, while they include the box, also include other (digital) things. While the box may weigh in on a backer's decision to choose that tier, those other things do as well and it is hard to say how many less of these tiers would have sold without the box.
I would estimate that for PE all above $500 tier. No point in paying for box more than $250-500...
 
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Metro

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Why?

And you RPG fags need to get with the times. TB RPGs are dead. I'm sorry but you can no longer caress, cradle, and jizz on your superior gameplay.
Very compelling argument. Especially on the codex in this day and age...:roll:

It wasn't meant to be a compelling argument but I am thankful you don't post much anymore.
 

ghostdog

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DarkUnderlord

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"Don’t do anything physical," says Vincke, when I ask him about recommendations for his fellow developers who are thinking about using Kickstarter. "I would never again do all the boxed stuff, and I regret that we spent so much time on everything related to making a physical release happen."
Bad, bad, bad idea.

Almost half was raised just from adding "Physical Box, Collector's Box and Signed Collector's Box" alone (and no, I don't know why KickStarter's amount raised and number of backers is different than when you add up all the tiers manually).
Could be add-ons.
I'm only talking about those first 3 Project: Eternity Physical tiers:

1. Physical Box = $248,170

Pledge $65 or more; 3818 backers

Previous reward tier + BOX VERSION OF PROJECT ETERNITY. The boxed copy will include a DVD version of the game and a printed manual. This is in addition to the digital version of the game (so 2 copies total!). Please add $15 for international shipping.​

2. Collector's Box = $489,440

Pledge $140 or more; 3496 backers

Previous reward tier + we will upgrade your box to a COLLECTOR'S EDITION BOX. You will find a CLOTH MAP OF THE GAME WORLD and the PROJECT ETERNITY CLOTH PATCH inside the box + EARLY BETA ACCESS + PROJECT ETERNITY MOUSE PAD. The collector's edition box will include a cloth map just like the old RPGs that we love. You will also get early access to the game with a BETA KEY. Includes Making of Project Eternity Documentary (DVD/Blu-ray). The game patch is an embroidered high quality non-iron on patch. Game patches are a tradition at Obsidian, and we want to share that tradition with you! Please add $20 for international shipping.​

3. Signed Collector's Box = $436,500

Pledge $250 or more; 1746 backers

Previous reward tier + you get your COLLECTOR'S EDITION BOX signed by CHRIS AVELLONE, TIM CAIN, JOSH SAWYER, and the rest of the development team + full color printed PROJECT ETERNITY COLLECTOR'S BOOK + an elite version of the PROJECT ETERNITY CLOTH PATCH. The book will be a full color book that includes concept art, player's handbook, monster manual, exclusive information about the campaign setting and characters, and a special behind the scenes look at making the game. Please add $30 for international shipping.​

I don't think you can say someone paying $250 for the Collector's Box is just after the other add-ons, they want that Collector's Box. Same as with the Physical box and the Signed Box. The total for tiers higher than that is another $489,750, which is only half of the $1,174,110 total from those three box editions above. I'm not saying don't do the really high tiers and bonuses, but you can clearly see people are looking for a copy of the game either in Digital Form, Physical Form, Collector's Edition or Signed Collector's Edition. They're the options that raise the most and have the most backers.

You ignore the fact that it's not the final amount the company gets. You have to subtract KS fees, sales/vat tax and actually produce physical goods.
Tax and KS fees are irrelevant as they're equally applied to all tiers. Producing the physical goods is an issue and I totally agree, but it's clear people are willing to pay more for those physical goods that should make it profitable. I do think some KickStarters got carried away and didn't realise how much some of this would cost though (which is just lack of business skills) - even with all the extra work they added for the digital tiers (adding in named pets, custom content for players costs development money).

So we don't know how much money there is actually left for developers. In manufacturing physical goods quantity is the main way to receive profit. Low quantity + high quality =/= profit (in most cases). Manufacturing boxed sets for PE, WL2 or some other big project might be feasible and slightly profitable, while for DOS it might be unprofitable.
If it was unprofitable for DOS, it was because they didn't have clear physical tiers and got caught up in their digital clutter. Look at the numbers and you can see D:OS raised most of its money from all the tiers under $65 (Over $575k or 65% of their funds raised). So again, people aren't after add-ons. They don't want extra personal digital crap as much. They're after copies of the game. Some people want a boxed copy though and that's what D:OS missed out on.

Another thing is that people who would not buy physical goods would likely buy digital version.
If true, then removing the digital tier would result in more people buying the physical tier. AMIRITE?

See how that doesn't work?

(How many people would you lose? How many people are buying the digital tiers because that's all the money they're willing to risk on the project and how many people are buying the Signed Collector's Box because money isn't an issue and they just want to support the game but want something physical to show for it?)

AND that could mean much more money for developers.
It wouldn't mean that much more - and in fact could mean less. The P:E digital tiers of $20.00, $25.00, $35.00 and $50.00 have 60,048 backers and raise $1,603,320.

By comparison, the $65, $140 and $250 tiers (the boxed versions) only have 9,060 backers (Less than 1/6th the number of people) and yet they raise $1,174,110. If we include all the super high add-on content tiers, it's about even. But if those 9,060 backers all decided, "Well, if I can't have a box / cloth map / signed box, so I may as well just get the digital tier" it'd only be $453,000 a $721,110 reduction. You also add the risk that they could've decided "well, fuck it I'm just not buying anything" and you lose anywhere up to the full $1.1M.

While I do think they may have lost more money on that $65 tier compared to the $50 (or more accurately, made more money on the $50 digital tier), I don't think you can argue that an extra $110 to have a cloth map signed would be a "loss". Like-wise a Cloth Map, Mouse Pad and embroidered patch can't cost $75 to manufacture (the difference between the Standard and Collector's Edition). I can get custom printed Mouse Pads for $5 each from my local printer and that's at quantities of 500 and a quick google of a bunch of fabric printing places shows prices around $20 for one-offs (depending on material and size). I'd think a few hundred (or getting it done in China) would reduce that down to around the $10 mark. Plenty of places do the embroidered patch too. Hell, I had a company name hand-stitched into a shirt for $15 and if you can buy patches online for $5 - $10 they can't be more than that to manufacture.

I do think the physical box tier at $65 is priced way too low though. It's an extra $15 above the $50 "Digital Collector's Edition" tier. But then, it's a DVD, manual and a cardboard box. Those things aren't expensive and I'd trust a company that's made boxed games in the past to actually know their pricing on that.

Either way, that has impacts on the KickStarter and it's marketing - which I think is seen in the D:OS KickStarter where while they only asked for $400,000 and got $900,000 - P:E was asking for $1.1M. If D:OS had asked for $1.1M would they have gotten it without physicals? If D:OS had had better and clearer physical tiers, would they have made a lot more money and reached higher stretch goals? It then feeds into a "failed KickStarter" versus "successful KickStarter" in all the marketing. "Oh, here's this game that failed it's KickStarter..." which presumably would have a potentially larger impact on sales down the track.

Besides, you have a made a logical fallacy by attributing high level tiers to physical rewards. Designing a custom portrait, inn, a party or weapon should be digital. Or split even to not skew the calculation.
No, that's why I said for Eternity that "Almost half was raised just from adding "Physical Box, Collector's Box and Signed Collector's Box" alone" IE: Ignoring all the rest of that crap down the bottom and basically excluding it from both sides of the equation. It's also why I posted the numbers, so you can actually see how much money comes in from only a relative handful of people compared to the masses buying the digital copies.
 

Infinitron

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Isn't the main issue here post-release physical retail distribution for non-Kickstarter backers? Seems to me that printing boxes for a few thousand backers shouldn't be a big deal either way.
 

evdk

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Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Isn't the main issue here post-release physical retail distribution for non-Kickstarter backers? Seems to me that printing boxes for a few thousand backers shouldn't be a big deal either way.
Wouldn't printing boxes for such in such small numbers (from retail perspective) actually be more expensive than printing in huge numbers with all the discounts that would mean?
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Isn't the main issue here post-release physical retail distribution for non-Kickstarter backers? Seems to me that printing boxes for a few thousand backers shouldn't be a big deal either way.
Wouldn't printing boxes for such in such small numbers (from retail perspective) actually be more expensive than printing in huge numbers with all the discounts that would mean?

Maybe, but I get the feeling that the main problem on Swen's end isn't so much expenses as it is having to time his release to line up with retailers' preferred release windows and stuff like that. I might be wrong, though.
 

:Flash:

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Isn't the main issue here post-release physical retail distribution for non-Kickstarter backers? Seems to me that printing boxes for a few thousand backers shouldn't be a big deal either way.
Wouldn't printing boxes for such in such small numbers (from retail perspective) actually be more expensive than printing in huge numbers with all the discounts that would mean?
The "Kickstarter Backer Edition" is a special box that is not available in retail, so - at least for the box itself - there wouldn't be a difference in that regard.
 

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