1eyedking Do JRPG's do anything well?

[KalosKagathos]

bump into a boss -> die horrible while taking notes of what it was exactly that killed you -> fuse/recruit a party designed specifically to counter what killed you -> steamroll the bastard with a huge grin on your face.

Sounds like deep tactical combat.

Doesn't have enough eye shot spam, I know.

 

[quasimodo]

I'ld say the current argument has managed to establish BC as a quality poster now that she has dropped her old emetic posting style so I see some good coming out of it.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

So what is this ongoing argument about anyway? It has been established as to who likes some jRPGs and who doesn't like any jRPGs. What is the point of carrying on with this?

Proving that we're hardcore and we DON'T LIKE THAT WEEABOO SHIT I HATE IT I HATE IT I HATE IT PLEASE BELIEVE ME

 

[FeelTheRads]

Doesn't have enough eye shot spam, I know.

Ah, so it went from "deep and tactical" to "better than".

Cool stuff.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

bump into a boss -> die horrible while taking notes of what it was exactly that killed you -> fuse/recruit a party designed specifically to counter what killed you -> steamroll the bastard with a huge grin on your face.

Sounds like deep tactical combat.

So things die if you have a party specifically designed to counter them

THE HORROR

 

[Damned Registrations]

True tactical combat is pretty much impossible without having permanent troop losses as a real and acceptable risk in the fight. X-Com can achieve this; pretty much any rpg where you can just rez your characters can just get pretty close. Fallout isn't really even close. The only relevant tactical decisions to be made are 'Which enemy do I kill first?' and 'Do I attack this turn or use medicine?' Nothing else needs to be thought about.

Large number of party members is also kind of required. 4 is probably the bare minimum. Any fewer than that and you'll have designated roles so clearly defined everyone's actions will be the same in each battle.

 

[FeelTheRads]

bump into a boss -> die horrible while taking notes of what it was exactly that killed you -> fuse/recruit a party designed specifically to counter what killed you -> steamroll the bastard with a huge grin on your face.

Sounds like deep tactical combat.

So things die if you have a party specifically designed to counter them

THE HORROR

HERP DERP

Missing the point, unwillingness to listen, deep faggotry. That's pretty much you.


You faggots just admitted that the combat is trial & error bullshit. Learn what you have to use when and it's instant win. Fucking deep, man.

 

[roll-a-die]

bump into a boss -> die horrible while taking notes of what it was exactly that killed you -> fuse/recruit a party designed specifically to counter what killed you -> steamroll the bastard with a huge grin on your face.

Sounds like deep tactical combat.

So things die if you have a party specifically designed to counter them

THE HORROR

HERP DERP

Missing the point, unwillingness to listen, deep faggotry. That's pretty much you.


You faggots just admitted that the combat is trial & error bullshit. Learn what you have to use when and it's instant win. Fucking deep, man.

Not really, there's always the possibility of a boss firing off an instakill death ray and fucking you over, because your MC is weak to that kind of attacks. There's also bosses that are weak to 2 elements but will completely destroy you if you use the other 15 kinds of attacks. And are also immune to analyze.

And really most of the games labeled tactical here on the codex, bar possibly JA2, which I haven't played yet. Aren't really all that tactical, they're more, try to avoid dying in 1 hit, also try and actually hit the enemy this time, despite the chance of hit being somewhere around 1-10 percent for the entirety of the game on higher difficulty.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

You faggots just admitted that the combat is trial & error bullshit. Learn what you have to use when and it's instant win. Fucking deep, man.

*waters the Volourn flower*

He said the steamrolling happens if you know exactly what to use. Your tries-too-hard, bile-filled brian read this as "this is obligatory because non-optimal party can't win, it's either steamroll or insta-rape", which would only happen if by some mystical reason he managed to reach every tough fight with none of the "right" skills.

er, I mean

DURR LOOK IM FEELTHERADS AND I EAT BOOGERS

*polishes monocle*

Elite.

 

[KalosKagathos]

Doesn't have enough eye shot spam, I know.

Ah, so it went from "deep and tactical" to "better than".

Cool stuff.

Sorry I snapped at you. Was about to go to sleep after a long day. Anyway, it's not tactics in JA sense, no. The key to victory lies in understanding the fusion system, as I've said a hundred times already. The "recruit/fuse a party designed specifically to counter what killed you" bit isn't as straightforward as it may seem: you have to understand what skills can be inherited by which demons (there are different physical skills for beasts and humanoids, for example) and learn how to work with the fusion table and take full advantage of elemental and mitama fusion. People who say it feels more like a puzzle game at times are right; doesn't mean it's not fun or somehow un-RPG-like, though, just different.

 

[Archibald]

I tend to think that if JA didn`t have good combat system then nobody on codex would even call it rpg.

 

[laclongquan]

Other than combat system what else JA2 got going for it? Story? That's a laugh. Characters? Very sketchy. Quests? None worth talking about. JA2 is actually a turnbased squadbased tactical combat game. We called it RPG quite recently because what's with everything get called RPG these days there's no reason not to.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

 

[zeitgeist]

Other than combat system what else JA2 got going for it? Story? That's a laugh. Characters? Very sketchy. Quests? None worth talking about. JA2 is actually a turnbased squadbased tactical combat game. We called it RPG quite recently because what's with everything get called RPG these days there's no reason not to.

It has a storyline, it has cutscenes, it has interactive dialogues, it has meaningful C&C, it has quests, it has an open world, it has NPCs with independent schedules, character development and customization through skills and itemization, it has characters with unique personalities, it has party banter... If you go purely by the feature list, it has more RPG elements (and some are fleshed out better) than a lot of games that get called RPGs regularly, not only by the mainstream press, but by "RPG fans" too. What do you feel is missing?

I tend to think that if JA didn`t have good combat system then nobody on codex would even call it rpg.

I have a funny feeling it's the opposite - it could be considered one of the rare RPGs that actually has a great combat system that overshadows other features, so it automatically makes people think of it as a "turn-based tactics" game first. If the combat system was replaced with a Diablo clicker, or party blob combat, no one would bat an eye at people calling it an "RPG".

 

[FeelTheRads]

Other than combat system what else JA2 got going for it? Story? That's a laugh. Characters? Very sketchy. Quests? None worth talking about. JA2 is actually a turnbased squadbased tactical combat game. We called it RPG quite recently because what's with everything get called RPG these days there's no reason not to.

JRPG mini-game combat is definitely RPG, though. And they also have good stories, good characters and good quests, apparently. Because only if those are good they can be RPGs.

 

[Cenobyte]

Other than combat system what else JA2 got going for it? Story? That's a laugh. Characters? Very sketchy. Quests? None worth talking about. JA2 is actually a turnbased squadbased tactical combat game. We called it RPG quite recently because what's with everything get called RPG these days there's no reason not to.

Seriously, you realize that the combat system is the very core of the game? And as such that's of course the primary focus of it? All the other stuff is just for atmosphere and added depth, and all these elements are in my opinion well integrated and designed.

And btw, you can say what you want, but at least Japan's still delivering some good tactical games, like the Disgaea series. What was the last really good tactical game that came out here in the West? Starship Troopers: Terran Ascendancy?

 

[laclongquan]

Am I touching a nerve here? Everyone jump up and down like a hot coal in the crotch. As if the statement menace everything that is good and holy in JA2...

First, JA2, as far as I remember back, is considered to be a tactical game with strong element of RPG. IT's great, everyone agreed, but hardly anyone ever called it RPG. Turnbased Squadbased Tactical Game. Only until the recent decline of gaming press and marketing practice when everybody and his brother want to call his game RPG come about, when almost everygame on market can be called a RPG if it contain some element of the genre, did the practice of calling JA2 a RPG game appear. It does not really matter to me much since a great game is a great game, a rose by any other name and all that jazz.

Second, we can recheck its RPG elements, point by point.

Story: barely there. A small island nation got a coup de etat, with the old queen kick her husband out and estaliblish iron control of the lands. hubby hire a group of mercs to retake his nation. End of story. What else is there?

Characters: wide selection of characters from that island and foreigners (mercs). each got some disctinctive features of their own (face portraits, characteristics...) but almost no personal quest or additional features. The relationship between some characters are fairly extensive, true, but limited to banters (and maybe in long term, exclusion of each other). In a RPG classification we call that "wide but shallow".

CnC: what CnC? All meaningful choice are combat/tactical/strategical choice. Good, but in RPG setting that's not fit. Those choices dont go with story (none) or characters. They are choices of a combat game, not choices of a RPG. If you liberate the prison will that open up new quests, or close up old ones? Wait no it dont because there's no quests.

Dialogues: what a laugh. You click on them and that's it. What else is there?

Cutscenes? Pure fluffs.

A cRPG, if you really want to label it as a RPG. But whatever. Compared to Fallout 2, BG2, MM8 which are games of same age, its RPG elements are simply lite beer.

And dont talk to me about current RPG. It's like comparing a world classic with the fluff street graphitty or marketing posters.

 

[KalosKagathos]

RPG elements

Story

Characters

CnC

Dialogues

Cutscenes

 

[FeelTheRads]

Cutscenes? Pure fluffs.

A cRPG, if you really want to label it as a RPG.

What? Fucking cutscenes? This is part of RPGs now too? What's next? Spoken dialogue? Radial menus? What else is RPG that I don't know of?

Also, can cutscenes be anything else but fluff? I guess, in JRPGs and the latest games where cutscenes play the game for you.

 

[Archibald]

Why are you quoting him? He isn`t the one who come up with that list.

 

[Zomg]

JA2 is an RPG if you allow it in under the same rules as older RPGs etc. where the "PC" is kinda the spirit of the adventuring party instead of an incarnate individual. Thus you can do shit like get everyone in the party killed and swap in new characters for them in the same game Ship of Theseus style, e.g. Might and Magics, Wizardries, Bard's Tale, Darklands. The idea of a PC as an individual or multiple individuals you are characterizing (which is the point of CnC, really) comes mostly out of other genres like IF/adventure games and crystallized in Fallout.

I was kidding about the laptop guy has no stats thing but there's a smidgen there because there IS an actual individual narratively implied by the game to be the PC (laptop guy) yet he has no existence in the gameworld (can't be captured or something, and yes has no stats).

 

[zeitgeist]

Am I touching a nerve here? Everyone jump up and down like a hot coal in the crotch. As if the statement menace everything that is good and holy in JA2...

First, JA2, as far as I remember back, is considered to be a tactical game with strong element of RPG. IT's great, everyone agreed, but hardly anyone ever called it RPG. Turnbased Squadbased Tactical Game. Only until the recent decline of gaming press and marketing practice when everybody and his brother want to call his game RPG come about, when almost everygame on market can be called a RPG if it contain some element of the genre, did the practice of calling JA2 a RPG game appear. It does not really matter to me much since a great game is a great game, a rose by any other name and all that jazz.

Personally, I'd be perfectly happy with calling it a turn-based tactics game with RPG elements, in a world where KotC is considered the same, ME2 is considered a console shooter with light RPG elements, and so on, but as you said, the recent decline etc. - in practice this leads to debates along the lines of:

A: RPG X has the best combat system ever!
B: Seriously? JA2 was miles ahead of that, even without mods.
A: But JA2 is not an RPG, it doesn't count!
B: How so? It has all the RPG elements that RPG X has, if not more.
A: But... but in JA2 those elements are horrible!
B: Maybe, but are they really so much better in RPG X?
A: Whatever!

Also, why are you not only disregarding the quests in JA2, but negating their very existence, when this is blatantly untrue?

What? Fucking cutscenes? This is part of RPGs now too? What's next? Spoken dialogue? Radial menus? What else is RPG that I don't know of?

I was simply listing some elements most games considered RPGs by Codex, general public, gaming press, and others have. I'd love to hear what other essentials are missing, except a stronger focus on those elements, which is a rather fuzzy concept. I'd be overjoyed if recent RPGs paid as much attention to most of these elements as JA2 did. We can all probably agree that the RPG label is getting slapped on a lot these days, and I'm trying to make the point that this is most often not because of the feature list of the actual game, but because of the reputation of the developer, how the game is marketed, who the game is marketed to...

 

[laclongquan]

Refresh my fragmented minds again about the quest in JA2, please.

Other than the giving letter to Father Tully, steal the Chalice back to the town upnorth, and find the deliquent boy near the brothel, I mean. the number of quests can be counted on ONE hand and simple to the point of simplicity.

 

[Zomg]

There's all the stuff in the town with the empty mine and Kingpin, like 4-5 baldur's gate level shitty fetch quests there I guess, the bounty hunts, the child labor thing, getting skyrider, the chalice, the blood cat lair, the rednecks, getting dynamo/shank to the guys they want to talk to. Talking to the guy and getting the rocket rifle in the center-east town is kinda questy. The robot, the crepitus ointment, the vehicles I guess. Probably a few more I'm forgetting. The UFC fights? Anyway, about normal garbage RPG level quests all in all, inside a good squad tactics game with a decent strategic layer.

 

[laclongquan]

I give you the robot quest: Go really out of your way to hunt that scientist, find stuffs, the scientist guy give you a robot, a choice: using robot or one of your merc. Okay, one rpg quest.

I even give you some escort quests. In the best tradition of RPG, escort quests are a must.

Blood Cat Lair? explore then kill, sell stuffs at merchant. If you want to call it a quest I can agree to it but it's a real stretch

Crepitus? Isnt there a undying outcry among JA2 forum about the bugs, that they break the immershun? I agree that it's a quest, btw, but isnt that JA2 fans whine and whine and whine about the existence of them? Same deal as Silent Storm fans whine about PKs.

But the rest?

Child labour thingy. For one thing, is there any reason whatsoever to NOT kill or kick that old chick out? Th ere's useful stuffs inside that factory you need at the start of the game, so it's really a wonder that she doesnt get a bullet ASAP. Hardly can be called a quest.

UFC fights are a quest? it's a big LOL.

So no, if you judge JA2 as a RPG game it will be found wanting and average. Its stature is that a Great tactics game with a decent strategic layer. A gun porn. Whatever.