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Dodge and Toughness

Discussion in 'Chaos Chronicles' started by Maerimydra, May 28, 2013.

  1. Maerimydra Literate

    Maerimydra
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    Of all the D&D 3.5 OGL feats that need to be improved, Dodge and Toughness are probably the best examples. Dodge gives you a +1 dodge bonus to AC against a single opponent that you choose at the beginning of your turn (not very useful when fighting more than one opponent). Pathfinder fixed that by turning the dodge feat into a fixed +1 dodge bonus to AC against all opponents. This ruling makes the dodge feat a more viable option and it is also easier to convert into a video game. Toughness gives you only 3 extra hp. It might be useful at level 1 but those extra hp become insignificant at higher levels. Pathfinder fixed that by giving characters/creatures with Toughness 1 extra hp per character level/hit die (but you can only take this feat a single time, unlike the 3.5 Toughness).

    I hope that Chaos Chronicles will use the ''Pathfinder'' version of those feats instead of their useless D&D 3.5 OGL version.
     
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  2. Ferdator Developer

    Ferdator
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    I didn't know about the fact that those feats do differ in Pathfinder. I personally haven't ever played it and my first contact was during the implementation of CC.

    Nervertheless those two feats do actually work different in our game regarding the OGL rules.
    In the original rules the dodge does cause way to much micromanagement for my taste. So I impemented the dodge feat to give a general +1 dodge bonus against all melee attacks.
    My implementation of the toughness feat is closer to the original rules. But instead of granting a +3 HP with every choice of the feat, our game does increase the granted bonus by another +3 with every iteration. You get +3 HP with the first choice, another +6 HP with the second, +9 HP at third and +12 HP at the forth and final step.

    As always playtesting will show if our variation of the rules is appropriate.
    If I'll see any need for another alteration, I will have your suggestions in mind.
     
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  3. Rpguy Arcane Patron

    Rpguy
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Neverwinter nights implemented the toughness feat this way before pathfinder and I prefer it that way.
    Why does your dodge applies to melee only? shouldn't dodging range attacks be possible?
     
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  4. Ferdator Developer

    Ferdator
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    It's one thing to dodge the attacks of your direct opponents that you currently battle in melee.
    It's another to dodge an unlimited amount of arrows that rain on you from all directions.

    In the original rules you get the bonus against one single opponent you have an eye on. I thought to have the bonus against several possible opponents that are directly threatening you is a good enough advancement. Having a permanent bonus against any attacks seemed quite overpowered for a level 1 feat. Plus there are other feats giving you advantages against ranged attack (e.g. deflect arrows).
     
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  5. Maerimydra Literate

    Maerimydra
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    It's a good advancement sure, but being 5% less likely to being hit is not equal to ''dodging an unlimited amount of arrows that rain on you from all direction''. Some of those arrows are going to hit you, even if you have dodge. Your ruling also make dodge less useful for ranged characters who stay out of melee range (archer, caster, etc.)

    On the other hand, you need dodge as a prerequisite for mobility, and mobility works only against AoOs, which are always melee attacks, so I guess your ruling does make sense. At least it's better than the original version and I would be fine with it.

    As for the Toughness feat, would you, Ferdator, as a player, burn 4 feats (all your feats from level 1 to 9 if you are not playing a human or a Fighter) on the Toughness feats chain? Unless characters in Chaos Chronicles gain more feats per level than the in OGL of D&D 3.5, which is only 1 feat per 3 levels, it stills look like a trap chose IMO.

    Another thing I like about Pathfinder is that you gain 1 feat per 2 levels (1, 3, 5, 7, etc.) It really helps you create more versatile characters (ranged/melee switch-hitter) and makes feat-starved builds more viable (archery, two-weapon fighting, etc.) I realise it might be too late to make such modifications to the game, but it would be something to consider for Chaos Chronicles 2. ;)

    P.S.: Did you guys created some of your own feats? That would be awesome because I think that the list of feats featured in the OGL of D&D 3.5 is quite limited. There is not even a feat that make you better at using shields outside of shield proficiency (like shield focus in Pathfinder, which give you an extra +1 shield bonus to AC when using a shield).
     
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  6. AbounI Colonist Patron

    AbounI
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    And we can suppose it's easier to manage with the " groups of ennemies" design if everyone in it have to attack PCs "at the same time"
     
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  7. Maerimydra Literate

    Maerimydra
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    Also, Deadly Aim. If there's one feat from Pathfinder I would like to see making its way to Chaos Chronicles, it's Deadly Aim. It's the ranged version of Power Attack. It only requires Dex 13+ as a prerequisite and it makes crossbow users able to deal significant damage past the first levels (archer can benefit from it too, but they don't need it as much as crossbowmen do, because, unlike crossbow, mighty bows can add your Strength bonus to damage). Just change the name to Power Shot or something similar to prevent any copyright issues with Pathfinder. :P
     
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  8. Rpguy Arcane Patron

    Rpguy
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I don't see any problem with a feat that gives you +1 to armor class ( it is somewhat limited since you need dex 13 and doesnt work when you lose your dexterity bonus ) but hey you do what you think is best for the game, that just like my opinion :P
     
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  9. bigdogchris Novice

    bigdogchris
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    May 14, 2013
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    I prefer the IWD2 implementation where you can select this feat 5 times, each time granting +3 HP. In D&D/OGL I consider +15 HP a powerful boost, especially considering that this is a video game and that healing will be relatively easy. More HP compounds the already "ease-of-play" of a video game.

    Also, giving a caster +45 HP (3,6,9,12,15) would be overpowered. If you decide to keep your current implementation, maybe limit casters to 3 ranks and allow warriors to take 5 ranks?

    At first I agreed with you. Upon further thought I now agree with the developers. Ranged attacks can come from great distances and from any angle. I see Dodge bonuses vs. that to be too great an advantage. When a character chooses Deflect Arrow they are honing their skills to be aware of ranged attacks. I agree they should be separate.
     
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  10. tuluse Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    tuluse
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    Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
    You're ignoring opportunity cost. If you took toughness 5 times you missed out on 5 feats that were much better and would have made the game even easier. Toughness is probably the worst feat in all of 3E.
     
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  11. Rpguy Arcane Patron

    Rpguy
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Look, it is very simple - in D&D dodge bonus to armor class ( not the feat ) applies to everything and it stacks, the feat increases this bonus by 1. No point in trying to make sense it in ( like why isn't this bonus applied to reflex saving throws? ) the only question is , is it too powerful or not...
     
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  12. bigdogchris Novice

    bigdogchris
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    You're right, it does. I forgot about that. Even if it doesn't make sense I would prefer the game follow the 3.5 rules as close as possible.
     
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