Don't Buy The Hype

[Severian Silk]

Please reconsider on behalf of this gem

Now I have to scroll to read every line, you dipshit.

 

[Dark Helmet]

Heh, someone made a thread "Don't Buy the Hype", Did anyone read it?, but it was locked, again.

I think it'd be more effective if it was shorter (easier on the PowerPoint generation), more concise, and less obvious about being anti-Bethesda.

 

[Bradylama]

The funny part is that I could've made it longer, and don't poke the ESF moderators. It's best to just let them have their way and let people find out on their own.

Good points all, galsiah, but the piece is already out there. There'd be little point in revising it, as this isn't a part of a concerted effort.

 

[jefklak]

Please reconsider on behalf of this gem

Now I have to scroll to read every line, you dipshit.

Oh poor guy, still on 1024x768

 

[JrK]

Bradylama, that was a good piece of research and writing. I've never thought of the way Bethesda uses Fansites against each other and I like the way you dissected those ideas. I do have to agree with all the critiques about assumptions and aggravated exclamations however. It loses it's front as an 'article' because of it. Maybe we can use your article for the upcoming FO3.org site?

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I didn't post this at ESF.

I like the mod reaction, though:

3. I'm not reading all of that.

I doubt anyone expects they will. The words aren't small enough, the sentences are too long and the font is way too small.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Please reconsider on behalf of this gem

Now I have to scroll to read every line, you dipshit.

Then turn of images in your browser, you whiny little twit. You request a new background colour in the forum css-sheet, get your wish granted, and then proceed to whine about image sizes? Does not fucking compute.

Good points all, galsiah, but the piece is already out there. There'd be little point in revising it, as this isn't a part of a concerted effort.

Hm, I don't quite see the problem. If you clearly state that this is a revised version you should do quite fine. Every written piece needs some severe editing, see the "Seeking cynical critical barstards"-thread for reference. I really think it needs it, and seeing how much time you probably put into it, it probably be fair to your self too.

All in all, a very good read, with consequent citing of sources. However, along with galsiahs remarks (he speaks, the truth as you know), you should more consequent with your formal approach. Calling Todd Howard "Todd" and The RPG Codex "the Codex", doesn't look too good. There are more examples, but I've just read it piece twice. I just can't bear reading it again, the reality is too brutal to face.

 

[dagorkan]

Great article, Brady.

One concern: the article starts great then progressively becomes more rabid approaching Oblivion release. Then it cools down again. I am not suggesting you change what you said, just that the tone you used in some parts may turn people off. Yeah stupid people but they are people as well and you want to influence them.

 

[Texas Red]

Heh, someone made a thread "Don't Buy the Hype", Did anyone read it?, but it was locked, again.

I think it'd be more effective if it was shorter (easier on the PowerPoint generation), more concise, and less obvious about being anti-Bethesda.

Biggest load of BS I've ever had the pleasure of half reading.

Therefore it was deleted.

What a perfect reason to lock a thread.

By the way, Dark Helmet, shouldnt you be banned by ESFtapo because you registered and post here?

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Man, you truly take geekdom to a new level. I am not sure something like this, that is despite claiming to "just be a warning" is making every effort to paint Behtesda as the devil incarante, serves any constructive purpose. Nevertheless, it's an interesting statement of your view on things and reasonably well researched. A couple of random comments:

- You take too much from that rather poor escapist article. I am a long standing TES fan, and I swear, this article is the first time I heard this Weaver guys name. He is a corporate head, and for all I kno or hear he had little or no impact on the creative process of the TES games.

- I am not a native speaker, but "curiouser" isn't a word, right?.

- You don't know TES or it's community well if you claim that they do not listen to fans. Interaction was pretty good throughout the development of Morrowind and still better than many other games during development of Oblivion. In part the problems in Oblivion are results of listening to fans too much, especially the new wave that came with MW and had other ideas for the future than me (or probably most of the Codex). Likewise I think its unfair to paint the firing of a community manager as merely an attempt to control the fanbase. Due to the enourmos influx of fans, the community aspect that worked well until morrowind has lost a lot of quality. Regular devs are just overwhelmed and frustrated as a result. A community manager is long overdue, and such concepts have worked well, e.g. for Gothic. The one on one interaction can't work anymore when one developer is facing 5000 forum posters.

- while occasional attempts at porn or shock posting were indeed made on Bethesdas forum too, they have always been consistently policed, there (even leading to the closure of the off topic forum for a considerable time). That argument therefore doesn't catch. I agree that the ban is ludicrous, but it's still more than half your fault. Related to that, considering what Kathode and MSFD were exposed to here, it was a miracle that they posted here as long as they did. There was and is a persistant ill will to bethesda, here that claims to be objective, but has almost religious overtones.

- I don't see Arena or Daggerfall as roguelikes. The feel is completely different. And to me at least, the roguelike elements were weak, insteead of strong, points of DF and arena. I am not alone among oldtime TES fans in liking MW better than DF. Thus it is with men - they are difficult to categorize.

- As long as NMA was the lair of Rosh, you needn't be surprised that people are scared away.

- Wether we like it or not, the alienated fans are probably more than made up by new fans. The message to bethesda needs to be that they can dare more on the hardcore side without loosing the market. Shitting all over Bethesda, bacause you decide to feel shat on is having exactly one effect - making it almost certain that you will be ignored. Who want to discuss with people that write something like this piece about you, in public, no less?

 

[Dementia Praecox]

- You don't know TES or it's community well if you claim that they do not listen to fans. Interaction was pretty good throughout the development of Morrowind and still better than many other games during development of Oblivion. In part the problems in Oblivion are results of listening to fans too much, especially the new wave that came with MW and had other ideas for the future than me (or probably most of the Codex).

This could explain much, actually. I lurked TESF prior to the release of Morrowind. It was an entirely different community back then, more NMA or Obsidian forums-like After Morrowind was released I left, and never looked back.

A community manager is long overdue, and such concepts have worked well, e.g. for Gothic. The one on one interaction can't work anymore when one developer is facing 5000 forum posters.

They have summer, what more can you ask?

- while occasional attempts at porn or shock posting were indeed made on Bethesdas forum too, they have always been consistently policed, there (even leading to the closure of the off topic forum for a considerable time). That argument therefore doesn't catch. I agree that the ban is ludicrous, but it's still more than half your fault.

I don't now if this is accurate or not, but a better example in any case is that they did, and still do, allow for links to other boards who post the occasional shock link.

Related to that, considering what Kathode and MSFD were exposed to here, it was a miracle that they posted here as long as they did. There was and is a persistant ill will to bethesda, here that claims to be objective, but has almost religious overtones.

If what you say here were accurate, they surely would have come back and posted that last "fuck you all, I'm leaving"-post, right? You don't stay active on a board for two years, have a post count of 700, and suddenly sinks in to the ocean. Sure it happens, Saint and Fez was MIA for a couple of months/years respectively. But when this happens to two posters at the same time, and they both happen to work for a company that seemingly just banned all mention of the same site on their official boards. I mean, come on! You don't have to be sheek to derive some serious conspiracy theories from that.

- As long as NMA was the lair of Rosh, you needn't be surprised that people are scared away.

I don't get this constant fear of Rosh and NMA (by this I don't mean just you, GBG), I've lurked DAC and NMA both allmost from the start, and The Codex two years from the beginning. In my opinion both DAC and The Codex have a much higher threshold for delurking. (Still The Codex ended up being the only forum I decided to partake in, but that's beacuse of the far lower retard ratio).

- Wether we like it or not, the alienated fans are probably more than made up by new fans. The message to bethesda needs to be that they can dare more on the hardcore side without loosing the market. Shitting all over Bethesda, bacause you decide to feel shat on is having exactly one effect - making it almost certain that you will be ignored. Who want to discuss with people that write something like this piece about you, in public, no less?

Good point, and I really hope you'll rise to the same geekdom level as Bradylama. I'd love to see the same type of article, only written from your point of view.

 

[OccupatedVoid]

I didn't post this at ESF.

I like the mod reaction, though:

3. I'm not reading all of that.

I doubt anyone expects they will. The words aren't small enough, the sentences are too long and the font is way too small.

redding is teh hards!!!11

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I don't now if this is accurate or not, but a better example in any case is that they did, and still do, allow for links to other boards who post the occasional shock link.

Maybe. But this is the only place that virginous old me has ever encountered tubgirl. Anyway, I am not in favor of this policy, and I have said so on the TESF, but the codex isn't the holy grail of discussion culture either, and shares some of the blame, IMHO.

If what you say here were accurate, they surely would have come back and posted that last "fuck you all, I'm leaving"-post, right? You don't stay active on a board for two years, have a post count of 700, and suddenly sinks in to the ocean. Sure it happens, Saint and Fez was MIA for a couple of months/years respectively. But when this happens to two posters at the same time, and they both happen to work for a company that seemingly just banned all mention of the same site on their official boards. I mean, come on! You don't have to be sheek to derive some serious conspiracy theories from that.

Well, all I can say is that I got the impression, when I talked to MSFD afterwards via the TES boards, that it was certainly his own intention not to post here anymore, and I got the impression that he felt genuinely insulted on a personal and professional level. You don't need a conspiracy theory. These guys work together. Maybe they talked about it over a lunchbreak and decided they had enough. Maybe it was discussed togehter with the project management and they decided that this is how they are going to handle it. Who knows! The version I am not buying is that evil Todd decided this and handed out a gag order against the will of those that posted here.

I don't get this constant fear of Rosh and NMA (by this I don't mean just you, GBG), I've lurked DAC and NMA both allmost from the start, and The Codex two years from the beginning. In my opinion both DAC and The Codex have a much higher threshold for delurking. (Still The Codex ended up being the only forum I decided to partake in, but that's beacuse of the far lower retard ratio).

I have simply never read threads that made me more angry than those with his involvement (mostly in the FO3 discussions). And even worse was the giggling crowd of other members enjoying the carnage. It was reading these threads that cemented my impression of an exceptionally hostile community.

 

[hiciacit]

Can't believe I read all of that. Not entirely uninteresting, but you come off far too opiniated to be taken seriously. Actually, it's not so much the bias that bothers me, but the way some impressions are often passed as facts.

A few small things:

Oblivion
...

The most telling sign of the loss of depth in Oblivion...

More significant was the complete loss...

Curiouser was the lack of any significant impact...

Perhaps the greatest flaw of all was...

Make up your mind already

Pete Hines: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. For a couple of reasons. Number one is that we're treating it as if we made the first two, with the same care and attention we give to The Elder Scrolls, but the truth of the matter is that we haven't. As a result there's probably a lot more divergent opinion about what it should be, what we should do, are we the right guys to do it, and so on.[33]

Remember how they treated The Elder Scrolls?

It's also interesting to note that he says that they've treated Fallout 3 like the first two games, while then saying that they actually haven't, making the entire exchange completely meaningless.

I think he means to say that they actually haven't made Fallout 1 and 2, while treating Fallout 3 development as if they had.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

redding is teh hards!!!11

Did you add that last "s" to avoid paying royalties to Kingcomrade?

Well, all I can say is that I got the impression, when I talked to MSFD afterwards via the TES boards, that it was certainly his own intention not to post here anymore, and I got the impression that he felt genuinely insulted on a personal and professional level. You don't need a conspiracy theory. These guys work together. Maybe they talked about it over a lunchbreak and decided they had enough. Maybe it was discussed togehter with the project management and they decided that this is how they are going to handle it. Who knows!

Hm, fair enough. But still, I keep getting that nagging feeling that if this was the case, at least MSFD would have come back, now that things have settled somewhat.

I have simply never read threads that made me more angry than those with his involvement (mostly in the FO3 discussions). And even worse was the giggling crowd of other members enjoying the carnage. It was reading these threads that cemented my impression of an exceptionally hostile community.

This I can understand.
But here on The Codex, most of giggling crowd is like Rosh. How do you manage that?

 

[dagorkan]

Fuck Bethesda but fuck NMA too. Criticizing TESF shouldn't in any way mean you validate Rosh's opinions or have to become a Rosh groupie. DaC I don't know well enough to say. They are pretty rabid as well but seem slightly more chilled out than the other fanboys.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Fuck Bethesda but fuck NMA too. Criticizing TESF shouldn't in any way mean you validate Rosh's opinions or have to become a Rosh groupie. DaC I don't know well enough to say. They are pretty rabid as well but seem slightly more chilled out than the other fanboys.

Uh, was this directed at me?

 

[dagorkan]

No. Why would it be? Everything does not revolve around you.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

No. Why would it be? Everything does not revolve around you.

Just asking. Your post followed mine and covered what I talked about, and I even mentioned your nick in there somwhere. It's not allways easy to understand what goes on in a dumbfucks mind. Which reminds me, what the hell were you rambeling about?

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Hm, fair enough. But still, I keep getting that nagging feeling that if this was the case, at least MSFD would have come back, now that things have settled somewhat.

He didn't even post on the TESF for a long time. Recently he has been posting again, do a search.

But here on The Codex, most of giggling crowd is like Rosh.

Nah, not even close

 

[Brother None]

Criticizing TESF shouldn't in any way mean you validate Rosh's opinions or have to become a Rosh groupie.

...

You don't pay much attention to what's going on, do you?

- I am not a native speaker, but "curiouser" isn't a word, right?.

Yes it is.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Criticizing TESF shouldn't in any way mean you validate Rosh's opinions or have to become a Rosh groupie.

...

You don't pay much attention to what's going on, do you?

Don't mind him. He is a dumbfuck trying to run from his tag.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Yes it is.

Well...

“Curiouser and curiouser!” Cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English).

 

[galsiah]

“Curiouser and curiouser!”

Should be "Curiouser and more curious!".
"Curiouser" always gets you a touch of wonderland chic, though - even without the repetition.

 

[Briosafreak]

I have simply never read threads that made me more angry than those with his involvement (mostly in the FO3 discussions). And even worse was the giggling crowd of other members enjoying the carnage. It was reading these threads that cemented my impression of an exceptionally hostile community.

You do realise Rosh is an old TeS fan, that until Battlespire was quite a follower of Beth right? And that he talks will all that hostility because he feels betrayed by them?

Look he resigned because we weren't hard enough on Beth on our newsposting, so that could give a hint that what he said was, well, his views. But since we didn't went to the Oblivion fora telling how TeS fans should behave and what they should ask about their games we at least thought it would be clear that in our forum we would let things roll as we are used to, and we weren't expecting the Oblivion fans and devs to tell us how to behave, therefore Rosh remains free to post what he wants in the forum, he earned it through years of membership.

We actually had a rule of not overly speculate about FO3 and no rude posts against Beth devs in general (which was placed so people wouldn't start sterile discussions and generalizations that would make everyone seem like HayT or Shadowstrider, when it's not the case) but after the devs flew without giving us a hint to why those rules were dropped.

And when they did the arguments were feeble, at best, so we continued to operate in the same manner as before, more care and cross checking what shows up on the news, more free discussion on the subjects in the forum, with extra care to the trolls that insult everything NMA, like the Qt3 guys, that on the other hand feel all shocked when NMA members do the same regarding things that have to do with Beth.

Still you won't find the amount of bitterness against Oblivion and Bethesda that you can find here, the sheer quantity, mostly by TeS fans, not even Fallout fans, so I still find those words not only contradictory but also completely wrong.