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Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Alexandros said:
Still, Volourn's point stands. Many people consider ME 2 worth playing and DA not worth playing, which is :decline: of biblical proportions. Even if someone thought that DA was mediocre, it was still a RPG.
ME2 was a shit action game, DAO was a shit RPG. There, problem solved :smug:
 

Hoaxmetal

Arcane
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9,173
Sceptic said:
Alexandros said:
Still, Volourn's point stands. Many people consider ME 2 worth playing and DA not worth playing, which is :decline: of biblical proportions. Even if someone thought that DA was mediocre, it was still a RPG.
ME2 was a shit action game, DAO was a shit RPG. There, problem solved :smug:
ME2 was less tedious, simple as that.
 

Incline

Novice
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Aug 15, 2010
Messages
22
ME2 had that shitty dialogue wheel, that alone makes it worse than DA, and will make DA2 worse too
 
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VentilatorOfDoom said:
But if you’re playing as a real salty scoundrel, for example, choosing the polite dialogue options will often result in your character saying the nice thing with a hint of sarcasm because it’s not really something that fits with the character you’ve built thus far. You can still choose whatever dialogue options you want, but the way you actually sound during those options will be affected by decisions made far earlier in the game.


So a character who is an ass towards everyone but his friends will sound like an ass when speaking to his friends because he REALLY can't mean in nice? :M

I am actually deeply impressed by that stupidity. If I want to say something with SARCARSM make it have a *sarcasm* tag behind it. If I want to be nice towards someone I want to be. And if its only for laying my old boney fingers around her warm fleshy planet sized tits.
 

KalosKagathos

Learned
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But if you’re playing as a real salty scoundrel, for example, choosing the polite dialogue options will often result in your character saying the nice thing with a hint of sarcasm because it’s not really something that fits with the character you’ve built thus far. You can still choose whatever dialogue options you want, but the way you actually sound during those options will be affected by decisions made far earlier in the game.
Calling bullshit on this one. Having 3+ versions of each line will make the voice acting budget even more ridiculous than it already is.
 

tunguska

Liturgist
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Messages
227
Azrael the cat said:
'we're going the way of the audience' - sounds logical at first, but it's typical of the marketing blindness (in terms of market reach, not advertising) that's restricting the industry. In a truly competitive and quality industry, a major player like Bioware would look at those numbers and say 'hey, we're ALREADY managing to sell to that audience. They'd buy a Mass Effect expansion pack, or a sequel made along similar lines. The PC market is barely tapped, yet we're missing it - we need a product, a new one if necessary, that will get those customers on board.'

They'd be better off with different franchises targetting different crowds - increase production of regular Mass Effect sequels (or add another franchise with mostly the same gameplay elements) if they want to increase console sales.

The problem is the perception that making PC exclusive games is just not profitable. Whether due to piracy, fewer buyers, or more difficult to please buyers doesn't really matter. If it costs the same to produce a PC game and a console game the belief is that the console game will result in many more sales. If you don't care about anything but sales figures it's a no brainer. It looks like Bioware is also realizing that RPGs don't sell as well as other genres. I mean, duh! Everyone else had already figured that one out years ago. So they are going to make the transition to action games set in both a fantasy and a scifi setting. They are just following the money. And they are probably going to try to release a "new" <cough> game every year now that they are a sub-division of EA.

After finally playing Crysis, I have to say that there is a (relatively) new action sub-genre. I will call it a "story based shooter". Crysis had very little in common with the old fashioned FPS that we used to call a "doom clone". Now it's all about following a real story. A trend that I very much approve of. I think we have to stop seeing Biowhore as an RPG developer and start seeing them as an action game developer like Crytek. They make story-based action games.

I tihnk what their sales figures show is that it is very difficult to please both the console kiddies and the older PC gamers with the same content. Console kiddies want undemanding, short attention span, twitchy action games. They don't want strategic combat. They don't want to have to read a 100+ page manual before they can start playing. In fact they don't want to read anything at all, ever. They don't want to have to use a complicated qwerty keyboard or a mouse. If the typical console game is any guide they don't like saving their games either. PC gamers tend to be more sophisticated in their tastes and are much harder to please. Bioware is really only just beginning to tap into the console kiddie market. There is actually a lot more dumbing down they can do. And you can bet that they will. While we codexians trash them, they will be putting gas in their super-yachts.
 

Rhalle

Magister
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
2,192
tunguska said:
Azrael the cat said:
'we're going the way of the audience' - sounds logical at first, but it's typical of the marketing blindness (in terms of market reach, not advertising) that's restricting the industry. In a truly competitive and quality industry, a major player like Bioware would look at those numbers and say 'hey, we're ALREADY managing to sell to that audience. They'd buy a Mass Effect expansion pack, or a sequel made along similar lines. The PC market is barely tapped, yet we're missing it - we need a product, a new one if necessary, that will get those customers on board.'

They'd be better off with different franchises targetting different crowds - increase production of regular Mass Effect sequels (or add another franchise with mostly the same gameplay elements) if they want to increase console sales.

The problem is the perception that making PC exclusive games is just not profitable. Whether due to piracy, fewer buyers, or more difficult to please buyers doesn't really matter. If it costs the same to produce a PC game and a console game the belief is that the console game will result in many more sales. If you don't care about anything but sales figures it's a no brainer. It looks like Bioware is also realizing that RPGs don't sell as well as other genres. I mean, duh! Everyone else had already figured that one out years ago. So they are going to make the transition to action games set in both a fantasy and a scifi setting. They are just following the money. And they are probably going to try to release a "new" <cough> game every year now that they are a sub-division of EA.

After finally playing Crysis, I have to say that there is a (relatively) new action sub-genre. I will call it a "story based shooter". Crysis had very little in common with the old fashioned FPS that we used to call a "doom clone". Now it's all about following a real story. A trend that I very much approve of. I think we have to stop seeing Biowhore as an RPG developer and start seeing them as an action game developer like Crytek. They make story-based action games.

I tihnk what their sales figures show is that it is very difficult to please both the console kiddies and the older PC gamers with the same content. Console kiddies want undemanding, short attention span, twitchy action games. They don't want strategic combat. They don't want to have to read a 100+ page manual before they can start playing. In fact they don't want to read anything at all, ever. They don't want to have to use a complicated qwerty keyboard or a mouse. If the typical console game is any guide they don't like saving their games either. PC gamers tend to be more sophisticated in their tastes and are much harder to please. Bioware is really only just beginning to tap into the console kiddie market. There is actually a lot more dumbing down they can do. And you can bet that they will. While we codexians trash them, they will be putting gas in their super-yachts.

Yep.

My ugly coinage was ShooteRPG, which I made up here on the Codex in November of 2008. Lots of Hollywood blockbuster cinematics are an integral part of it as well.

A game every year from BiowEAr is probably right. How short do you reckon DA2 will be-- minus the bullshit about 'replayability', of course? I'm guessing it will be in the very low double-digits of hours, like, say, 12 hours, and games in following years will be single-digit hours of playtime games easily.

And yeah, all genres will begin (have already begun) to converge on the the story-driven, choice-lite, cinematic first-person shootery game. The original Half-Life is to blame, btw.
 
Joined
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Messages
3,181
tunguska said:
If it costs the same to produce a PC game and a console game the belief is that the console game will result in many more sales.
I'd say development for consoles costs quite a bit less: just two reasons off top of my head being the preset universal hardware/software configuration of consoles (QA and support can be rather costly for PC, as opposed to consoles) and demands of a specific crowd (in general, give a console kiddie some epic cinematic boob carnage and he's happy).
The rest of what you said is yeah, pretty much.

But to me, that bioquote sounds more like them just giving up. Saying 'we can't make interesting RPGs, so we might as well go the way of the action crowd and get it over with'. Personally, I hope to see them, someday, leave the PC market for good, to give any promising upstarts some breathing space. But eh, that's a common sentiment, I gather.
 

Achilles

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Sep 5, 2009
Messages
3,425
I'm not sure that's true, since you need some sort of certification to develop for a console. I remember CD Projekt being able to get the 360 licence only after the success of the Witcher. I think PC development is still cheaper, not only due to lack of said certification, but also because PC gamers are not as obsessed with 'blockbuster' games.

Grunker said:
Alexandros said:
Jaesun said:
Mas Effect 2 was an Action Game. moran.

Still, Volourn's point stands. Many people consider ME 2 worth playing and DA not worth playing, which is :decline: of biblical proportions. Even if someone thought that DA was mediocre, it was still a RPG.

Eh, that's a bit odd...

I like Civilization a fucking great deal more than I like Neverwinter Nights. Is that decline :?

I know it sounds odd, so allow me to explain. No, liking Civ more than NWN is not decline. Civ has nothing to do with the RPG genre and these two games cannot be compared with each other. However, ME2 tried to pass itself as a RPG and, as such, it is placed in direct comparison with the likes of Dragon Age. Thus, saying that you prefer ME2 to Dragon Age is kinda like saying that you support the dumbing down of the RPG genre and that's the decline part.

Now I know what you're going to say: "But I never said I considered ME2 a RPG, it's an action game". Yes, but the rest of the world thinks it's an RPG. Come the end of the year, most game sites will declare it "RPG of the Year". Do we really want to support that?

Anyway, I don't really understand the claims that DA has filler combat. ME hasn't? That game is pretty much 100% filler combat, there's nothing else there but combat and sex scenes. Are a few decent characters really enough to classify ME2 as a better game than DA?
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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How about this then: I like a dumbed down RPG that does quite good as an action game better than I like a game that ultimately gets boring no matter what I do with it?

Mind you, I actually like both games (and has taken flak for it many times). I've even played through them both twice. Dragon Age keeps me going because it has so much interesting stuff, but I always quit because of the big ball of boring. So when I've played ME2, I've played it from beginning to end. Playing Dragon Age is impossible unless you take breaks of a week or more once in a while.

But it sure as hell isn't decline to say that ME2 is the better game. It's the truth(tm). The sad truth, but still the truth.

Are a few decent characters really enough to classify ME2 as a better game than DA?

Yes. That and the filler combat in ME2 is a lot easier to live with. It's done faster, and involves action. I like strategy a lot better than action, but the fact remains that badly done strategy is a lot worse than badly done action.

ME2 is much, much, much, much better written. The characters are almost all fucking great. That makes it a better game.

And again, I actually like both games.
 

cogar48

Educated
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Aug 16, 2010
Messages
122
Alexandros said:
Thus, saying that you prefer ME2 to Dragon Age is kinda like saying that you support the dumbing down of the RPG genre and that's the decline part.
Maybe you prefer the setting? :smug:
 

Jaesun

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MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
Volourn said:
"Mas Effect 2 was an Action Game. moran."

Action RPG. And, the Codex thinks its better than DA.

No one at the prestigious Codex has ever claimed or stated ME2 was an RPG (it's not). At best it has something that could be slightly RPG like, but that is about it. System Shock 2 is way more an RPG than Mass Effect 2 could ever hope to achive. And nether ME/ME2 or DA even made it on our top 10 list of rpg games moran. r00fles!

Volourn said:
PLus, don't people cry about how ME series is a FPS? LMFAO

Bloodlines is our 5th favorite game at Codexia, and is a FPS. It also is much more an RPG than Mass Effect 2 could ever hope for.
 
Joined
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How about this then: I like a dumbed down RPG that does quite good as an action game better than I like a game that ultimately gets boring no matter what I do with it?

Ah, speaks volumes. No need to answer my question in the other thread.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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Blackadder said:
How about this then: I like a dumbed down RPG that does quite good as an action game better than I like a game that ultimately gets boring no matter what I do with it?

Ah, speaks volumes. No need to answer my question in the other thread.

You like a shit game that does nothing better than a shit game that does something, I take it?

Take your pretentiousness elsewhere Blackadder. I'm quite capable of recognizing the diamonds while taking pleasure in the silver, and I'm not going to pick up the decline-sthick as my fucking mantra no matter how much idiots like you try.

Argue with me, if you will, but if you're just here to throw around your "I'm so much better than you because of some arbitrary reason"-gimmick, then what's the fucking point?
 

cogar48

Educated
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Messages
122
Jaesun said:
No one at the prestigious Codex has ever claimed or stated ME2 was an RPG (it's not). At best it has something that could be slightly RPG like, but that is about it.


Eh, depends on how ME3 uses C&C. The only two things ME2 were really missing was an inventory and C&C. If ME2 ties into ME3 in a good way ME2 = RPG.

inb4 shitstorm.

Never thought I'd side with Volourn. :salute:

Edit: Why the fuck was it so hard for me to construct that sentence?
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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The only things ME2 is really missing is an inventory and C&C.

So an RPG is a game that has an inventory and C&C? :?

EDIT: Shit, forget it, that discussion is not worth going into again for anything.
 

cogar48

Educated
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Messages
122
Grunker said:
The only things ME2 is really missing is an inventory and C&C.

So an RPG is a game that has an inventory and C&C? :?

EDIT: Shit, forget it, that discussion is not worth going into again for anything.

No. But those were the only common elements ME2 was missing. I suppose I should add it needs those two things before the Codex even considers it to be an RPG. I already think it's an RPG.
 

cogar48

Educated
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Messages
122
Grunker said:
Good luck on the 'dex, Cogar48. Steel be with you.

Also:

Jaesun said:
Epic Picard Facepalm.jpg

Sorry, let me rephrase my post. FUCKING CONSOLETARD POPAMOLE DUMBD DOWN TRASH BIOWHORE ASS EFFECT SHIT COCK BALLS STREAMLINED POS FUCKING FAKE ASS RPG ACTION SHOOTER GENRE HORRIBLE!!!11!1!1111

Does I fit in now?
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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cogar48 said:
Grunker said:
Good luck on the 'dex, Cogar48. Steel be with you.

Also:

Jaesun said:
Epic Picard Facepalm.jpg

Sorry, let me rephrase my post. FUCKING CONSOLETARD POPAMOLE DUMBD DOWN TRASH BIOWHORE ASS EFFECT SHIT COCK BALLS STREAMLINED POS FUCKING FAKE ASS RPG ACTION SHOOTER GENRE HORRIBLE!!!11!1!1111

Does I fit in now?

Me and Jaesun aren't Blackadder or Skyway. In case you didn't notice.
 

cogar48

Educated
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
122
Grunker said:
cogar48 said:
Grunker said:
Good luck on the 'dex, Cogar48. Steel be with you.

Also:

Jaesun said:
Epic Picard Facepalm.jpg

Sorry, let me rephrase my post. FUCKING CONSOLETARD POPAMOLE DUMBD DOWN TRASH BIOWHORE ASS EFFECT SHIT COCK BALLS STREAMLINED POS FUCKING FAKE ASS RPG ACTION SHOOTER GENRE HORRIBLE!!!11!1!1111

Does I fit in now?

Me and Jaesun aren't Blackadder or Skyway. In case you didn't notice.

Yet I get a "Epic Picard Facepalm" for liking ME2? :retarded:
 

cogar48

Educated
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
122
Alexandros said:
No, for considering it a RPG.

Then what is an RPG? :retarded:

Teach me, Oh Great Codex.

Edit: Seriously, what do you guys consider to be an RPG?
 

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