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Dragon Age: Origins PC Gamer preview out, tidbits...

hiver

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Why is it that "thousands could dwell" ("could" being speculative) but "wolves were stabled" (being an absolute statement of fact)?
Because human and Orc forces were collected, dispatched, used and its meant to show possibility of capacity while wolves were actually there, stabled and waiting to be used?

Bright and clear morning, singing birds, green everything, pretty stream--stop me if you've seen this before.
Thats what you usually can see in nature on bright and clear mornings. Nature is generally green and birds do sing. For the part of the world it describes its perfectly appropriate.

The last sentence contains not one but two similes, and it's mixed metaphor. The grass is like snow, but the flowers are like stars? Do stars grow side-by-side with snow maybe? In fact, in winter wild flowers wouldn't even be growing, would they?
The grass seemed white as snow because of the flowers, which are white and cover it because they are as numerous as stars.

Some flowers in middle earth grow even during the winter. At some places.
Flower of Rohan. Simbelmyne was a small white flower that blossomed throughout the year. It grew on land where the dead were buried, particularly upon the barrows of the Kings of Rohan.

Anybody could've written these passages.
Thats not true.
You are welcome to try, by all means.

Dave Gaider could probably have written something much like it, given the same objects/scene.
-edited- Cheap and petty insult i would consider much cruder and juvenile then the quote i posted.
 

nomask7

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Infernaeus said:
Lesifoere said:
"Thousands dwelled there: workers, servants, slaves and warriors with great stores of arms; in the deep dens underneath, wolves were fed and stabled."

The above version fits best, though.
I don't recall the sound-context, but that sounds god awful. I don't think you have much ear for language.
 

Infernaeus

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I am admittedly not a literature major nor a great author, and perhaps I shouldn't have said fits best as a general term, as I was only referring to making the original sentence work better in the context of

The omniscient narration falters here.

For its own sake:

Many houses there were, chambers, halls, and passages, cut and tunneled back into the walls upon their inner side, so that all the open circle was overlooked by countless windows and dark doors. Thousands dwelled there: workers, servants, slaves and warriors with great stores of arms; in the deep dens underneath, wolves were fed and stabled.

I would only feel startled by Tolkien's version if I actually considered it for a moment, whereas the various others and the above elicit a more knee-jerk type of reaction.
 

Annie Mitsoda

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Brother None said:
I get this, but in some ways it resounds more with a need to engender positive feedback than to be truly creative. Creativity to some extent means working on the basis of your own imagination without considering other works, not so much turning away from other people's works.

Obviously, in practice it doesn't work that way, and I'd rather see considerations of "is this interesting" or "is this new" made than avoided in some farcical attempt to get at the core of creativity. Still, a pathologic need not to copy Tolkien might be as bad as a slavish inclination to do the opposite.

Well, the majority of it is really my own curiosity. The secondary part is that if one is GOING to create a setting, being aware of what else is out there and what the primary touchstones of the best-known fantasy work ever (notice I said best KNOWN, not BEST) are is beneficial. Not that I would ever base a world entirely on what something ISN'T (because as I've said before, deliberately trying to make the opposite of a stereotype only strengthens that stereotype) - that too is no way to make something lasting or unique.

Aside from curiosity - and making sure that my own writing doesn't turn out to be subconsciously derivative - I have to say that in my own experience with the industry, FAMILIAR shit is what sells. So - figuring out what the touchstone experiences of Middle Earth are and spinning that - or even distilling it to "what is it about this setting, in terms of feeling instead of physical elements, that's so compelling to people, especially in terms of gameplay?"

And at heart I'm an academic. I like to study shit. Can't help it. Show me a shiny thing, and I will poke at it with a stick until my curiosity is satisfied.

(and again, I look at this thread now and see hissing and a lot of defensive noise, not discussion, so it may be this investigation of mine is best put on hold)
 

kris

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Lesifoere said:
nomask7 said:
I'm not sure how speculative "could dwell" is in the context. "Could have dwelt" would be speculative.

It's still not as absolute as "wolves were fed." The omniscient narration falters here--it's not sure whether the thousands are really there (it only states that the place is big enough for thousands), but it seems certain the wolves are definitely fed and stabled. Given that it's not a limited third person narrator, that jars.

I must say I am happy not to pick asunder and analyse tidbits of a book on this level. In fact I am quite happy that I don't care at all. I am interested in a great story, a story that makes me either think or fantasize. There were nothing cliché about Tolkien at the time I wrote it, most other books I read later ended up being though.

I written some 200 pages in what is my own setting. It is quite discouraging hearing about all ideas other had and realise it was the ones you believed were your own completely original one. Soon I have exposed all my ideas!
 

hiver

Guest
So - figuring out what the touchstone experiences of Middle Earth are and spinning that - or even distilling it to "what is it about this setting, in terms of feeling instead of physical elements, that's so compelling to people, especially in terms of gameplay?"
Evidently, a lot of people tried to do just that and came up with inane simplifications.

To a lot of people it turned out to be that elves are some kind of sexy ninjas, dwarfs are stupid berserkers with eyes crossed who usually spit all over themselves when eating and drinking and that everything is clearly divided into black and white - which its not.

And what makes Tolkien setting so special is the opposite of that. (if it can be put so simply in one sentence at all)

I dont think you can really pin point the thing you are searching for by distilling it or breaking it into smaller segments because its gestalt effect of all of them combined that matters.

Like Fallout. As soon as you take it apart and start picking feature by feature it falls apart because this is bad, that is not right, bla, bla, bla...
But when you just play it its an experience of a lifetime and in its own gestalt better parts bolster weaker ones and the whole makes even the mistakes funny or entertaining.

It may sound too simple or even pathetic to modern sensibilities but that line of Gandalf :
"And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
Is true on many levels and appropriate for this speculation.

With that in mind i could dare to single out a few things from his setting and "feeling" of it that i think are important cornerstones in the whole story.

Love and respect of the nature is one of the obvious ones. It plays a great role in his works, not one of scenery or background for acshun.
First of all it is a delicate creation of Valars and high God as ultimate manifestation of their combined powers.
Its further strengthened by creation of Elves as a first race and their connection and manner of relation to it.
Elves talk to the trees not because they are some funny treehuggers but because they see them as kindred living creatures - to the point that they teach some of them how to talk. Other elves who have great craftsman talents always use them to revere nature. Feanor created Silmarils so he could save the light of two great trees that gave light to the world before there was a sun and other elves who dealt with masonry shaped the stone with love and care for it so much so that Legolas can still feel it when the fellowship comes across remnants of their work.

And Lothlorien is one huge fusion of nature and elven respect, love and ability to live with it and use it without destroying it.

Then you have the example of Elrond using a river to defeat Nazguls - a clear example of connection to the nature instead of some sort of elemental (vomit) magic.
The examples go on and on and on.

Its also pretty clear what Tolkien feels about blind industrialization from his descriptions of Saruman and closing chapters in Shire.
He must have been ridiculed for it in those times of rampant industrialization hailed as the second coming even more then today.


Next easy to spot important feature is surely his meditations on entropy and easy short term solutions against harder, long term decisions.
What to do when faces with tough choices, how to act in the face of evil and fear.
Do you toss the Ring into the sea or give it to someone else then hide and hope for the best?
To do something when you are afraid or not?
Persist despite of it all?
Simply, do you surrender to greater force or fight desperately. And can you, by your actions create some meaning where there isnt one.

Fear and dealing with it is a great part of the story. from standing up to Nazguls who are fear incarnated to the king of Numenor who Sauron corrupted (and then many other Numenoreans) because of his fear of mortality and so caused the complete destruction of Numenor.

And how the war affects everyone included. Look what it did to elves that came across the sea. Even if it could be said they have "won" they lost too much. They even fought and killed each other and been betrayed and destroyed which must be very hard thing to experience when you are otherwise immortal.
There was no victory for them, only loss.

LOTR is epic? Yes, and not because of the action and huge battles and badass this and that. (which it has more then enough)

Its no secret Tolkien setting contains much more food for thought, i barely mentioned the Ring and whole "power corrupts" because i dont see it as separate from themes i mentioned above.

But this is already long enough and i made my point, i think.
 

Deleted Member 10432

Guest
This is possibly the most pointless discussion since the question of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin*, but the removal of 'were', like so:

Thousands could dwell there, workers, servants, slaves, and warriors with great store of arms; wolves fed and stabled in the deep dens beneath

would alter the mood of the subsequent clause to suit Lesifoere's problem while not actually substantially altering the piece. AFAIK.

It's strained English but still acceptable, I believe. To make it fit properly would require rewording the second clause more, though, IMO.

*It depends on the size of the pin and the dance, of course, but a waltz on an average-sized pin could probably take four.
 

Lesifoere

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Djadjamankh said:
*It depends on the size of the pin and the dance, of course, but a waltz on an average-sized pin could probably take four.

I like the cut of your jib.
 

nomask7

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Everyone knows that academics can't read or think. Creativity has always taken place far from academia, or has barely survived it. The academic environment selects for high conformism and other feminine traits. Innovation is socially and emotionally impossible for them, unless it's the right kind of "innovation". The ability to parrot accurately and with flare, and with a tone that fits the expected sort of flare, is most highly valued.
 

-Pavlos-

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nomask7 said:
Everyone knows that academics can't read or think. Creativity has always taken place far from academia, or has barely survived it. The academic environment selects for high conformism and other feminine traits. Innovation is socially and emotionally impossible for them, unless it's the right kind of "innovation". The ability to parrot accurately and with flare, and with a tone that fits the expected sort of flare, is most highly valued.
Speaking as one who lives in the Ivory Towers, I find your comment to be inaccurate. Very inaccurate.
 

nomask7

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-Pavlos- said:
nomask7 said:
Everyone knows that academics can't read or think. Creativity has always taken place far from academia, or has barely survived it. The academic environment selects for high conformism and other feminine traits. Innovation is socially and emotionally impossible for them, unless it's the right kind of "innovation". The ability to parrot accurately and with flare, and with a tone that fits the expected sort of flare, is most highly valued.
Speaking as one who lives in the Ivory Towers, I find your comment to be inaccurate. Very inaccurate.
On the other hand, you're unable to speak the truth about anything. That's because you're not familiar with it. Even if you were, taboo and social penalties would be enough to deter you.

If I were wrong, how could one man know more about cosmology than thousands of certified cosmologists:

http://www.holoscience.com/news.php

Thinking in groups has never been something humans are good at. Yet that's the only sort of thinking most of them know how to do.

If I were wrong, "race is skin deep" would be seen as a laughable proposition by most everyone in the acedemia, since glaring truth wouldn't be so hard to accept if there were no tremendous social & emotional & even career penalties for doing so.

If I were wrong, history wouldn't continually prove me right.

If I'm wrong, where is today's Nietzsche? You have to look for major Holocaust-deniers to find someone controversial to the degree that Nietzsche was during his day (and, I must say, continues to be, even with all the Marxist egalitarian distortion of his work through translation and twenty-page introductions that twist your perception so forcefully you never recover from the double vision induced).

If I were wrong, historians who wish to question convenient myths instead of reinforcing them wouldn't be ostracized or sent to prison (depending on the particular demokrassy in question). They could also write about the good sides of Third Reich as well as the bad, without being "discredited".

If I were wrong, cultural and religious studies wouldn't be so pathetically PC. It's difficult to find out the truth about anything when you have to continually try to hide it instead.

I could continue the list endlessly, but most of it would be elaboration only. Bio denial, for example, is huge and covers lots of things.
 

Lesifoere

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You know, for the most part I take hilarious things said by Codexers to be mere trolling, but sometimes I find out that some actually believe in the faux-edgy things they spout and I facepalm a little.

(You're not edgy. Seriously.)
 

buccaroobonzai

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Tolkien's main inspiration and writing template was the Finnish "Kalevala", not the Eddas. The Eddas, Der Ring des Nibelungen, Beowulf, and Arthurian tales also played major roles in his writing and that is true. But it was the Kalevala that had the most influence in themes and characters. I have done a research paper on Tolkien, read other papers and a biography on him.

His writing template is in the form of the "sagas", and maintains that format though interweaved into a more modern style. This style is nothing like modern literature though of course, it is still mainly reminiscent of the sagas. That is why he did not put a very unique literary flavor or stamp on these writings.

He was first and formost a philologist. A philologist considers both form and meaning in linguistic expression, combining linguistics and literary studies. Definitions are: "the study of the historical development of languages" and in British academia, "philology" remains largely synonymous with "historical linguistics". His writing is based on historical languages and the mythologies of those traditions.

His writing was not meant to be the next Great Gatsby etc. He wrote it for himself, and best read by other linguistics and mythology afficianados. If one just picks up his works and reads them as any other novel of modern times, one will miss most of the themes and subtelties etc. Tolkien reads much better if one is familiar with his influences.

The other major influence on him was WWI. The brutalities and horrors of that war combined with the templates of the mythologies he studied provided the good vs.evil worldviews in his works. He was not writing character studies here obviously, he was more interested in the consequences of global war, mechanisation of killing machines (which he associated with the massive arms race for industrialization), the depletion of natural wilderness in his own countryside to factories and smog, and allegorical themes-of which there are massive amounts. He and C.S.Lewis were in a club and Lewis a devout Christian of course, had a major influence as well.
 

hiver

Guest
Yup.
Though i wouldnt be so sure to include Lewis influence as anything major. Tolkien is very far from representing christian dogmas as Lewis did.
I think it was more his own views on morality and ethic questions then anything else.

good sig btw :)
 

buccaroobonzai

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hiver said:
Yup.
Though i wouldnt be so sure to include Lewis influence as anything major. Tolkien is very far from representing christian dogmas as Lewis did.
I think it was more his own views on morality and ethic questions then anything else.

good sig btw :)

Yes you're right, I had read that Lewis had quite an effect on Tolkien and the rest of the people and members of the clubs they both formed the "Coalbiters" and "Inklings" . I read Lewis had quite an influence on most people he was around. Lewis was also the person who urged Tolkien to publish "The Hobbit".
 

hiver

Guest
:squints:
I was talking... about supposed christianity themes in Tolkien work. As influenced by Lewis. Supposedly.

And what about those "allegorical themes-of which there are massive amounts" since its commonly known Tolkien disliked them and tryied to avoid making any as much as he could?
 

nomask7

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Lesifoere said:
You know, for the most part I take hilarious things said by Codexers to be mere trolling, but sometimes I find out that some actually believe in the faux-edgy things they spout and I facepalm a little.

...because you've examined the arguments you habitually ridicule - as opposed to memorized the party line based on blind faith in authority?


Lesifoere said:
(You're not edgy. Seriously.)

You can't read, write, or think. That's a bad combination of disabilities. Seriously.
 

nomask7

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buccaroobonzai said:
The other major influence on him was WWI. The brutalities and horrors of that war combined with the templates of the mythologies he studied provided the good vs.evil worldviews in his works.
Yet he saw neither world war as a "good vs. evil" affair, and the only good vs. evil theme in LotR is the good of resisting the evil of temptation and corruption.

Somehow the old fascist managed to be less politically naive than the faux-edgy leftist liberals that people such as Lesifoere admire and represent.
 

Xor

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Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
In before nomask starts spouting holocaust denial stupidity.
 

Deleted Member 10432

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nomask7 said:
Lesifoere said:
(You're not edgy. Seriously.)

You can't read, write, or think. That's a bad combination of disabilities. Seriously.
Then the posts by Lesifoere are positive miracles, and so prove both the existence of God and therefore the First Convenant with the Jews, and their status as the Chosen People. QED.
 

buccaroobonzai

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hiver said:
:squints:
I was talking... about supposed christianity themes in Tolkien work. As influenced by Lewis. Supposedly.

And what about those "allegorical themes-of which there are massive amounts" since its commonly known Tolkien disliked them and tried to avoid making any as much as he could?

Oh I agree with you Hiver. I was just relating what I read in papers and a couple of biographies on him.

There is quite a good amount support for allegory as well as additional quotes from Tolkien himself that contradict other statements he himself made about not being allegory in his works. The reference material I got that from is called "JRR Tolkien: Architect of Middle Earth: Daniel Grotta", and there are other papers, I will have to look them up...

These are also good books: "J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century by Tom Shippey "
"Tolkien and the Great War: The Threshold of Middle-earth by John Garth "
"J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment "
 

nomask7

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Xor said:
In before nomask starts spouting holocaust denial stupidity.
And it's stupidity because ... you've examined the arguments - as opposed to dutifully memorized a one-sided narrative and accepted it on fate?

In the recent argument about the "Holocaust" history, no one managed to provide me or Squeeco with a single piece of evidence or convincing argument in support of the official victor's narrative of the "Holocaust":

http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

...whereas we provided plenty that contradicted it.
 

nomask7

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Djadjamankh said:
nomask7 said:
Lesifoere said:
(You're not edgy. Seriously.)

You can't read, write, or think. That's a bad combination of disabilities. Seriously.
Then the posts by Lesifoere are positive miracles, and so prove both the existence of God and therefore the First Convenant with the Jews, and their status as the Chosen People. QED.
Yep, the yidzim are the only self-chosen master race on the planet at the moment. Funny how all the anti-racists still find them so venerable.
 

Shannow

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Djadjamankh said:
nomask7 said:
Lesifoere said:
(You're not edgy. Seriously.)

You can't read, write, or think. That's a bad combination of disabilities. Seriously.
Then the posts by Lesifoere are positive miracles, and so prove both the existence of God and therefore the First Convenant with the Jews, and their status as the Chosen People. QED.
Either that, or he was thrown out of troll school by headmaster Volourn and now sits next to andhaira, sharing half a rotten apple as a brain, under the the most decrepit bridge possible. Spends his time stealing our precious air, watching the sewage float by, at random intervals smashing his face on the keyboard generating his "posts" and waiting for some merciful person to put him out of his misery. But who'd voluntarily get near that stinking pile of feces? He'd prove the existence of satan if satan were a pathetic loser.

While both possibilities sound reasonable I'd tend towards the second.
Anyway, you were talking about Tolkien ripping off dgaider. Please continue.
 

nomask7

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Shannow said:
Djadjamankh said:
nomask7 said:
Lesifoere said:
(You're not edgy. Seriously.)

You can't read, write, or think. That's a bad combination of disabilities. Seriously.
Then the posts by Lesifoere are positive miracles, and so prove both the existence of God and therefore the First Convenant with the Jews, and their status as the Chosen People. QED.
Either that, or he was thrown out of troll school by headmaster Volourn and now sits next to andhaira, sharing half a rotten apple as a brain, under the the most decrepit bridge possible. Spends his time stealing our precious air, watching the sewage float by, at random intervals smashing his face on the keyboard generating his "posts" and waiting for some merciful person to put him out of his misery. But who'd voluntarily get near that stinking pile of feces? He'd prove the existence of satan if satan were a pathetic loser.

While both possibilities sound reasonable I'd tend towards the second.
Anyway, you were talking about Tolkien ripping off dgaider. Please continue.
Either that, or not everything you dutifully memorized at school and learned by watching the joo box represents an actual truth, or even a close approximation of truth, about the world. Gee, which might it be?
 

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