Game News Dragon Age semi-annual update

[kris]

Consequences of those choices? From INVENTORY MANAGEMENT? What are you, some emo bitch? Oh noes, my healing potion is on the other character. Woe is me! Seriously, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

It is really easy. If you can carry around a sword of fire, frost, giantkilling and acid (together with everything else) then you have never have to suffer the consequence of not choosing the best suited weapon for the situation. Maybe a even better example is the hundreds of grenades in KOTOR as some was really useful in different situations. No worries I had a fucking truck in tow.

Also the "picking up everything I see so I can sell it", now I am sure it makes you happy not avoiding getting any loot. I can see the rage in your face as you couldn't pick up more than two platemails to haul back to the city in baldurs gate.

Now I tell you what is tedious, that is scrolling around the hundreds of shit I had in my inventory truck in KOTOR. Inventory managment there was about selling stuff, for I really needed the money.

admittedly, inventory managment in Arcanum was a bit tedious, that mostly because I kept around to much tech/alchemy stuff that "maybe I could use this in the future" style. Never did I think "how good it could be if I could just keep it all", like those 2000 pounds of steel I found on the way.

 

[Shannow]

i don't really see why npcs waiting in an inn is so much better than npcs waiting in a camp. i suspect it to be a matter of implementation. i hated the way kotor went about it while the BG2 way of managing this was ok.

How are they not? I want to pick up the foul-mouthed dwarf in BG2 for just long enough to do his mini-quest, because I'm roleplaying a relentless XP-whoring min-maxer, so I drop a character to make room. Not realizing she's one of the few that can't conveniently be put into storage at the usual hub (that tavern place), I boot Mazzy and she waltzes off all the way to...Trademeet? Do the dwarf's murder/package retrieval/graverobbing thing (ka-ching!), boot him, traipse over to Trademeet a character short, get Mary Poppins back.

i'd like to stop being a relentless XP-whoring min-maxer. so, i'd get rid of xp and use a system similar to jagged alliance to advance my character. (did i actually write that? *expecting a shitstorm to come my way*)

VD and Veracity already fleshed out most of what i wanted to suggest.
non-plot-critical-characters could join you because they need your help (e.g. minsc or sulik). if you just let them sit around camp or have them in your party but do not follow their mission they will start bitching and depending on your leadership-skill they will find more patience or go out on their own. then they could either come back later or you could find their corpse lying somewhere in the country-side. this wouldn't require a generally simulated world.

the base camp:
is it an actual tent camp, an inn or a stronghold? or something else? all of that can have an influence on how long an npc would want to wait there.

suggestions for npc motivation:
you helped them do their quest and they are in your debt.
they are old friends and they don't mind waiting for you.
they are the mercenary type and as long as you pay them, they'll wait.
you have become a famous hero and they just hope that you'll take them with you some day and they wait as long as it takes.

as long as the npcs don't feel like replacable and forgettable dummies.

there should also be reasons why only one or two npcs accompany you if it is obvious that you are going into danger and more support would make sence.

 

[Jed]

Consequences of those choices? From INVENTORY MANAGEMENT? What are you, some emo bitch? Oh noes, my healing potion is on the other character. Woe is me! Seriously, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

It is really easy. If you can carry around a sword of fire, frost, giantkilling and acid (together with everything else) then you have never have to suffer the consequence of not choosing the best suited weapon for the situation.

I've always been against the "Dumbfuck" tag, but here is a perfect example of why he wears it.

I've gotta say that a great inventory system doesn't mean shit to me if the narrative sucks. To me, choices in narrative/plot progression are alot more important than choices in what item you want to carry.

I mostly agree with you here. I would rather have choices that matter in terms of advancing a plot or affecting the gameworld, but since that has been stripped out of RPGs for the most part, minor choice and consequence are the best I can usually expect, i.e., I only have enough space/weight in my inventory carry another two-handed sword that has a great bonus against Undead or a set of full plate that gives me a great AC bonus, but wrecks my DEX bonus? If it's a weight issue, do I spend my next level up investing a point in strenght to carry more, or should I raise my DEX again lowering my need for heavy armor? But with KotOR's "Magical Wal-Mart" system, I never have to make any choice or deal with any consequence other than scrolling forever through a shitty interface.

 

[Twinfalls]

Or to put it another way, inventory doesn't exist in a vacuum. If managing inventory is tedious in a game, it's probably not just because the management system is ill-conceived, but because the game itself doesn't allow it to be interesting.

Would proper inventory limits and management in the KOTORs have made it more interesting? Negligibly so - not because inventory management is not interesting per se, but because it cannot add anything when the basic design of the game is to ensure all players are kept trudging along the linear path to the next cut-scene. Like Jed mentioned, if you lose the freedom in a game such that the sense of equipping your party with hard-won items and setting out on an adventure is lost, or such that real, sweat-inducing decisions are no longer to be made deep in a multiple-path dungeon, then you can't just blame inventory management alone for any tedium along the way.

Objects should be relatively rare, should be interesting and coherent with their surrounds and the overall gameworld, so that playing around with them is not a chore. In the KOTORs, while there was a commendable effort to write good background material on each object, this was rendered superfluous where every fucking room had tons of the same stuff lying inside the same stupid canisters.

If gameplay must be based on loot'n'levelling, then it should be done well. The player must make decisions about what to take back, has to take risks (eg in Daggerfall non-automatic identifying, sinking when swimming overweight), etc. Inventory management then becomes interesting.

Deus Ex IW's single ammo, and the complete eradication of any inventory management whatsoever in the recent version of Bard's Tale, were not 'steps forward', but were reactions to bad overall design. Billions of repetitive items + munchkinist, utilitarian gameplay is lazy design which is not fixed by 'streamlining' inventory management away.

 

[elander_]

I've gotta say that a great inventory system doesn't mean shit to me if the narrative sucks. To me, choices in narrative/plot progression are alot more important than choices in what item you want to carry.

There are several ways to tell a story to the player. One is to tell it straight to him with a video showing the consequences to his actions (like Fallout final movies). Another is for npcs to tell it to the player with dialog. Yet another and much less used is to have the player experience the narrative trough gameplay. A movie can tell a great storie just with images in motion and sounds and no dialog. The great thing about games and rpgs in particular is that they can do this with gameplay too.

Ok so food, ammo and anything related to management can be a drag. Everything can be a drag if not made properly.

If the player needs to open his inventory every day to pick up some food and water and drag it to the characters mouth then that would certainly be as gay and larper as it can be. Food and water are very important when there is a proper world map like Fallout had, where traveling takes days in desert areas and the Outdoors skill is an important way to automatically collect food and water resources from the environment.

Choosing the shell ammo to use with a shotgun for example is an important combat option that adds to a believable experience. In Fallout it was annoying to do this because the inv gui was not very well done but this option is important.

Another not so common example consider for example a guy who needs to take his heart pills everyday or a guy who is dependent on cigarretes. You just put a pack on his inv and he consumes a unit everyday. If he starts geting low on this he will start bitching and picking fights with his team menbers. Without this he will lower his stats in combat every day and become very annoying or useless.

If gameplay isn't used to make the game more beliavable they might as well put a "WIN AND PLAY THE NEXT MOVIE" button instead of forcing the player to waste time with crapy gameplay that is neither good action combat or good tb combat. Gameplay has a purpose in an rpg that belongs to rpgs and is different from an action or a tactical tb combat game like FT.

 

[Shoelip]

Ok, your statement is reasonable, I'm not sure why you quoted me. I didn't say a good story makes up for bad gameplay. I said that having choices that affect plot progression are alot more important that choices that affect how good you are at killing stuff, to me at least. For instance, in Diablo you have to manage your inventory carefully, but there's no choice within the plot whatsoever. You just click click munchkin munchkin. I just think we should be more worried about the lack of actual roleplaying than the lack of inventory management.

 

[Sarvis]

Here's some anemic logic, repeated with quest compass since you didn't get the implication before: If you believe computer role-playing games don't exist, why are you posting on the Role-Playing Games Codex?

I never said RPGs don't exist, I said you can't roleplay in a video game. As even Vault Dweller told you, I have different ideas on what an RPG is. Is putting words in my mouth the only defence you're capable of?

Oh, and EDIT- It's not a memory issue, I just usually skip your posts.

No, it is a memory issue. We've argued about this shit. It's been a while, but it's happened.

 

[Sarvis]

It is really easy. If you can carry around a sword of fire, frost, giantkilling and acid (together with everything else) then you have never have to suffer the consequence of not choosing the best suited weapon for the situation. Maybe a even better example is the hundreds of grenades in KOTOR as some was really useful in different situations. No worries I had a fucking truck in tow.

Oh noes, it will take me <b>6</b> rounds to kill the giant rather than <b>5</b>! Woe is me!

Yeah, I'm still more worried about having to go to work in Pink Socks.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm not sure I get VD's problem with the whole circus thing. Why does every party member need a special skill? If Keith Richards approached you and said "come live in my mansion and snort coke and root supermodels" you'd probably say yes.

Probably. However, there is a big difference between partying with Keith Richards and adventuring in the deepest dungeons where danger lurks behind every corner or something similarly poetic. If we are talking about the latter, than I'd definitely prefer to be surrounded by people who have something to contribute (other than their enthusiasm and some coke).

 

[elander_]

I don't think that having a great inventory system will contribute much to the rp experience but an rpg is made of small details each one working to create a good rp experience. As long as the gui is well done and the player isn't force to manage tons of junk constantly to play the game i think few people would consider it a problem and could safely ignore it. Im one of those persons who felt the annoyance that is dealing with a bad inventory gui in a good rp game twice (not counting Diablo).

However i would miss that part of the game that is dealing with the greed of not being able to carry all the loot i can find because my char is small and weak but on the other side he has a good charisma so he can convince a companion pack rat to do it for him. I think this is one of the small details that can improve a good rpg but it would be worthless and annoying in an action/adventure game.

 

[Elwro]

A small idea about improving the basic "camp" concept... One of the danger with such a "camp" is that it may seem to be a limbo in which other characters stay until they're summoned, where nothing happens; just an NPC storage. First, create a way of communicating between the PC party and the camp. Both SF and fantasy offer some obvious tricks, from visions in steamy orkish entrails to magical balls and hitech communicators. Second, create a conflict situation in the camp. Someone's lying, someone's the traitor, someone has poisoned the water supply / destroyed one of the solar batteries. The problem is that the NPCs in the camp can't find the culprit themselves, while everyone's got their opinion of course. It would be nice if this was somehow connected to what the PC party was doing at the time. Shortly speaking, the PC could engage in conversation with the "camp" NPCs via the given method of communication, get as much info as he/she could, and then look for evidence which could prove that a certain NPC was lying. Or, in fact, that the whole camp was mistaken and it was the fault of someone/something else.
Even a single quest like this would perhaps be enough to break the "storage" stereotype.

Of course, perhaps such an idea has been already beaten to death countless times, but I don't think I've ever played a game with such a "camp". (KotOR bored me to tears on the first planet.)

 

[EEVIAC]

Probably. However, there is a big difference between partying with Keith Richards and adventuring in the deepest dungeons where danger lurks behind every corner or something similarly poetic. If we are talking about the latter, than I'd definitely prefer to be surrounded by people who have something to contribute (other than their enthusiasm and some coke).

Not to the average dweller in a fantasy world. Going out on dungeon crawls is at least a break from the rotten food and shitting in the street that prevails in the setting. Obviously though, some of the characters are going to need some skills otherwise you're going to be gimped. But that in itself raises the possibility of creating loser parties, which is at least a choice. Imagine an adventuring party featuring Ian, Tomi and Aerie - legendary!

I'm more concerned with the "story NPC's" that you can't tell to fuck off. It smacks of poor design. Surely the information they could impart could be gained from a journal or a non-party NPC, rather than the thirty second cut-scene we know its going to be.

 

[Vault Dweller]

First, create a way of communicating between the PC party and the camp.

Great idea.

...creating loser parties...

That would be nice, but it's Bio we are talking about, so my suggestions revolved around concepts that Bio might implement.

I'm more concerned with the "story NPC's" that you can't tell to fuck off.

I agree. However, Bio thinks that such NPCs are the best thing since sliced bread, so the question is how to make such setup work, how to make it more alive and interesting, how to upgrade the "NPCs storage" into an actual base.

 

[obediah]

Deus Ex IW's single ammo, and the complete eradication of any inventory management whatsoever in the recent version of Bard's Tale, were not 'steps forward', but were reactions to bad overall design. Billions of repetitive items + munchkinist, utilitarian gameplay is lazy design which is not fixed by 'streamlining' inventory management away.

I thought Titan Quest's way of dealing with this was pretty decent (I don't play many diablo clones, so no idea who invented it), monsters spewed out tons of shit all over the place, but you could tell by the color of the name how interested you should be in it, and assign some basic filters to which types of items on the ground were highlighted.

So McScrooge could have easily picked up every piece of lewt in the game, and using portals every 5 minutes to sell it, I just ran past 99.9% of the junk, stopping to pick up anything that was OMFG!!!! color, or my main weapon type.

I'm thinking back to Pool of Radiance, and that was pretty rough for magic item hunters. Unless you spent all your lvl1 slots on detect magic, you pretty much had to take whatever looked potentially interesting. Usually it wasn't too bad - hmmm 35 suits of chainmail, 35 shields, 35 short swords, and platemail, 2-handed sword, and a ring. Which three might be magic? To be honest, I'm not sure if I'd prefer going that hardcore, but definitely something closer to it.

 

[Ladonna]

If we new what the story was.........It would be easier......

Back in the dreamtime, I thought I heard something about DA having massive encounters in wars or something. This was something I am sure was written from a brief interview in PC Powerplay eons ago (Australian, not German). If this is still the way it is, perhaps the camp could be part of a merc war camp, with other soldiers and so on there too.

 

[EEVIAC]

I agree. However, Bio thinks that such NPCs are the best thing since sliced bread, so the question is how to make such setup work, how to make it more alive and interesting, how to upgrade the "NPCs storage" into an actual base.

What gets me is that there is already a solution that accomodates both the developers desire for story-essential pet-charcters and gamers desire to adventure with parties of their own choosing. Wiz 8 allowed you to select personalities for the characters you created, and although that didn't have a gameplay impact, if those personalities were tied into a quest tree or story-line you get both choice and story exposition.

 

[suibhne]

God, I miss parties. I don't prefer, but I can respect the loner rp-heavy setup (like Bloodlines, or AoD). The lobotomized 2-4 character teams is just an insult to everything that made the gold box games, Wasteland, the M&M's, X-COM, JA, etc... It's like if all the jigsaw puzzles were pulled from the market, leaving only the todder toys with 4 geometric shapes.

When DA was first announced, it was described as sort of a spiritual successor to BG2 and was billed as offering party-based combat. I was excited about it for that, and I didn't realize it was cut back to the bullshit JRPG standard 3-person party.

Even 6 is an arbitrary party limit, but it allows enough tactical diversity that at least you don't feel robbed. 3 is fucking ridiculous.

 

[Jed]

Another kludge in this system is that even if you don't take an NPC along the entire game, as soon as you do, they scale to you ...

 

[Ladonna]

Are you guys serious about it being one of the 3 character party games?

Its like im stuck in some loonie house. Who ever complained about there being too many party members? What research showed that 6 people was evil?

Is this Bio's way of saying 'with our new graphics engine, we discovered that having too many party members would require too many enemies on screen, which cause PC drain'?

 

[Micmu]

The choice is obvious:
1. you
2. hot chick with romance dialogue
3. utility drone / magic golem

 

[Mefi]

Who ever complained about there being too many party members? What research showed that 6 people was evil?

"And lo the number 6 was revealed unto me to verily be the number of the devil. But half of said number is but 3 which is the holy number, there being 3 parts to God, three toes to a foot and three cells to a brain." - 9:17, Teh Wizdum ov Bio.

edit: I'd imagine you're nearer the money with the second part of your post. With only 3 party members, you also get the associated benefits of maybe chopping out a few of those joinables and saving a bit of money/time.

 

[Catcher]

Are you guys serious about it being one of the 3 character party games?

Its like im stuck in some loonie house. Who ever complained about there being too many party members? What research showed that 6 people was evil?

Is this Bio's way of saying 'with our new graphics engine, we discovered that having too many party members would require too many enemies on screen, which cause PC drain'?

As far as I know, Ladonna, they're taking that whole cloth from the similarity between the NPC "camp" system with KoTOR. The last stated information on DA Party size is "4 to 6" with nothing said that such is set in stone. There's also no information, even unofficial, about the inventory system, so this whole discussion has been irrelevant to the original topic, however entertaining or informative it may be.

 

[Dgaider]

Are you guys serious about it being one of the 3 character party games?

I'm not sure where that comes from... another assumption, I suppose? We're still looking at the party being from 4-6 total. Where it ends up exactly will depend as much on how much info we need to fit into the GUI per character as on what feels like an appropriate size for the rules system and challenge level we'd like.

Me, I like larger parties because there is more opportunities then for cross-party banter. But that tends to run pretty low on the priority list, I'm afraid.

 

[suibhne]

Are you guys serious about it being one of the 3 character party games?

I'm not sure where that comes from... another assumption, I suppose? We're still looking at the party being from 4-6 total. Where it ends up exactly will depend as much on how much info we need to fit into the GUI per character as on what feels like an appropriate size for the rules system and challenge level we'd like.

Me, I like larger parties because there is more opportunities then for cross-party banter. But that tends to run pretty low on the priority list, I'm afraid.

If you get it to 6, I'll send you a bottle of halfway decent Argentinian wine.

 

[obediah]

edit: I'd imagine you're nearer the money with the second part of your post. With only 3 party members, you also get the associated benefits of maybe chopping out a few of those joinables and saving a bit of money/time.

I'm not sure there's much correlation between party size and number of joinables, especially when you consider the history of video/computer rpgs. Personally, I prefer hardcore party mechanics

- joinables can die and go *poof*

- if you don't recruit someone, or boot them from your party, they go about their lives. Maybe you'll run into them, maybe not. Whatever fits with the character/story. A sage you've coaxed from his research may just go back to his house and be easy to recruit again. A wide eyed youth that has tagged along may return home to share his riches, or he may head to the nearest inn and join up with another party. Maybe you never see him again, maybe you find his among some other corpses in a dungeon later on. Maybe someone a little touched immediately goes hostile.

'm not sure where that comes from... another assumption, I suppose? We're still looking at the party being from 4-6 total. Where it ends up exactly will depend as much on how much info we need to fit into the GUI per character as on what feels like an appropriate size for the rules system and challenge level we'd like.

You tease. :wink: Go with 6, and let the forums be filled with tons of people comparing party composition. Let the world be filled with combat where tactics, and combat is challenging because of the way people/monsters work together and not just because of their stats and special abilities.