Preview Dungeon Hero - big blocks of text are outdated

[DarkUnderlord]

Tags: Dungeon Hero

<a href="http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3168863&p=1">1up have taken a look at Dungeon Hero</a>. It's about the third preview now which has expressed some concern about the combat:
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<blockquote>NPCs go about their business just as you might expect -- the developers dubbed a particularly party-happy bunch as the "Gamecock Goblins." The story plays out more from paying attention to these little tidbits and sticking them together into plot arcs than it does from big blocks of text, which feel outdated to the developers at Firefly.
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The combat system, however, doesn't seem to be fully implemented yet. The main takeaway here is that instead of having combos, you mostly use face buttons to perform actions while fighting packs of enemies. As you level up, you explore skill trees, which automatically upgrade actions assigned to whichever button you press. Say you're facing an enemy who has a shield. If you have the shield-break move unlocked, pressing the heavy-attack button automatically brings out that new action without you having to think about it.
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The boss battle at the end against an ogre with small Godzilla-esque spikes on his back and pointy fingers is appropriately ugly -- in a good way. The developers also mentioned a multiplayer mode. But it's not the co-op we're hoping for -- it's more like an arcadey minigame experience.</blockquote>
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I'm glad to see developers are finally doing away with old-fashioned text and going with the much newer audio and visual approach. It's advancements in technology like this that push the gaming industry forward.
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Spotted @ <a href="http://www.rpgdot.com">RPGDot</a>

 

[Jasede]

Okay okay, I take it back, this is awful.

 

[treave]

Not having big blocks of text kinda cancels out whatever good Terry Pratchett may have brought to the game.

 

[JarlFrank]

As you level up, you explore skill trees, which automatically upgrade actions assigned to whichever button you press. Say you're facing an enemy who has a shield. If you have the shield-break move unlocked, pressing the heavy-attack button automatically brings out that new action without you having to think about it.

What. Heck, Diablo is an intelligent game compared to that. Attack an enemy and automatically use the best attack possible for this special enemy... without having to think about it! Will this be anything else than a clickfest?

 

[thesheeep]

I'm glad to see developers are finally doing away with old-fashioned text and going with the much newer audio and visual approach. It's advancements in technology like this that push the gaming industry forward.

You may not believe it, but that is actually true.
If you can just tell (or even better, show) an information, there is no need for forcing the player to read endless textblocks. That basically keeps the player in game instead of pulling him out of the experience by suddenly switching to "book-mode". Of course, it always depends on the kind of information, its importance, etc. Also, you simply can't tell everything by showing it

Anyway, doesn't change that this game seems to be, uh, weird. I'm quite confused about it, because I can't yet imagine anything concrete. Also, that skill system seems to reduce the combat to button-smashing a la Fable.

 

[Jasede]

I liked book-mode better.
So might most here; I might be wrong.

Yet I don't think most here want "all info at a glance", at least not when this comes with reduced writing and text. Having both is fairly acceptable, but not the former at the cost of the latter, never.

While they might LIKE, for example, seeing, instead of only HP, the wounds on their character, realistic and all that, I think they would rather have a nice, immersive text blurb you can read when you click on your status window, something like

"You are tired. You are somewhat hungry. Your left foot aches from when you kicked a door. There's an untreated scratch on your right face and you think two of your ribs are broken." - better still, make the accuracy of this info medical-skill dependent; heavan.

The way of the future is basically no interface and everything at a glance - it's awful when not at least backed up with optional interface toggles and lots of text. It might seem weird to kids, but I'd much rather have a window where I can read the backstory of my new sword than be able to tell just from how it glows in my character's hand how strong it is. Make people read. It's not immersion-breaking, it's immersion enhancing.

Also, I MUCH prefer a "look" command like in older games that, when you click on something you can see, provides you with a nicely detailed atmosphere. Sure, you can -render- a table... but with text you could, for example, include a perception check to maybe deduce what once stood on it. With text you can describe moods, smells, colours. I guess you can just render it, but call me dumb, but I really prefer to read something in addition.

 

[JarlFrank]

I'm all with Jasede here. Text is a great enhancer of immersion, especially if it serves to give you more detailed descriptions of how *your character* percieves the gameworld, in his or her own eyes. The graphics on the screen - they are how you see them. If there's a small hole in the wall, and you don't see it because your eyes aren't that good, but your character sees it because he has a high perception stat... text is the only way to make it work. "You see a hole in the wall." Makes something obvious that your character sees, but you maybe don't see.

Also, you can never show smell by visual means. You need text if you want your gameworld to go into details. And text is *good* for things like that.

 

[treave]

Well... I assume that their target audience isn't exactly the book-loving sort. Readers are a dying breed..

The recent trend in games seems to be more 'cinematic'. Whereas a good number of games used to be more like books in terms of plot and length, they're all moving towards a style more akin to movies nowadays. I suppose it's just flashier and more appealing. More modern. Why waste all those processing power when you can use it to render beautiful vistas?

..Of course that means the game length also steadily decreases from book-length to movie-length.

 

[SpaceKungFuMan]

I agree 100% with everything Jasede said. But the premise of a coherent city and more importantly logical dungeon design/enemy placement is still appealing, if it is true. The developer sentitment expressed here is more of a problem then the way the game itself is being developed. How much do you really have to read in most diablo clones anyway? If they were making a real RPG and said this, then they deserve to be roasted.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I swear some of you guys didn't read the first preview I linked.

Firefly has taken every preconception you may have, and turned them on their heads.

Dem dere's mighty big werds.

... and they had this to say about combat:

What we wanted to do was make it more interesting and tactical than just hitting 'X', whilst not requiring you to learn a combination of buttons, because that's hard.

Most people, myself included, just can't be bothered to learn them, or simply forget them.

Learning a combination of buttons (they're talking about the console version here) is "hard". A developer who feels that most people "can't be bothered to learn them" when you're talking about simple button combinations, can't have anything good in mind for the rest of the game. Certainly not anything "hard" or requiring thinking.

But the premise of a coherent city and more importantly logical dungeon design/enemy placement is still appealing, if it is true.

I agree but in the context of everything else, it'll be seen as "background noise". Given there is "evil death" living underneath that the Goblins accidentally dug into as well, I'll believe it when I see it. It's one thing to talk about the Goblin city being a real society when they're the ones you're fighting - sent there to clear them out by the human city above - it's another thing entirely when there's even more evil underneath which needs to be killed. It demotes the interesting Goblin city from a "learn about them and understand their world" to "find the blacksmith to sell all your phat loot" (though this game apparently doesn't have loot).

The conversations on the Codex about a living and breathing world all end in talk about deeper and more meaningful quests. I just don't see it here. All I see will be you'll walk into an area and a guy will walk by carrying another guy on a stretcher and you'll go "cool" and then look around for whatever it is you're meant to be killing there. And as treave already said, what's the point of Terry Pratchet if there's no giant slabs of text?

 

[Chefe]

Okay okay, I take it back, this is awful.

Me too.

 

[thesheeep]

I liked book-mode better.
So might most here; I might be wrong.

Yet I don't think most here want "all info at a glance", at least not when this comes with reduced writing and text. Having both is fairly acceptable, but not the former at the cost of the latter, never.

While they might LIKE, for example, seeing, instead of only HP, the wounds on their character, realistic and all that, I think they would rather have a nice, immersive text blurb you can read when you click on your status window, something like

"You are tired. You are somewhat hungry. Your left foot aches from when you kicked a door. There's an untreated scratch on your right face and you think two of your ribs are broken." - better still, make the accuracy of this info medical-skill dependent; heavan.

If I had to choose between a display that shows me all of that, probably via a model of my character with those things pointed out by whatever means, and a plain text like the one you wrote, I'd always go for the display. I just don't like reading stuff I could easily see, as do most players (not here, though ).

The best solution would be, of course, to have both. A dislay that shows what's going on and a nice text that goes more into detail. Just avoid charts. Ewwww.

Make people read. It's not immersion-breaking, it's immersion enhancing.

IF it is optional. If you are forced to do something you simply don't want to, it will kick you out of the game. That's how most players feel (again, not here) and I somehow envy those people that can be immersed by text only. I know I can't.

(Optional) Additional information is always a win. And additional information is (almost) always text, and there is no kicking you out of the immersion, since you don't need it.
I like how that was done in Bioshock. You could just run through the game, ignoring everything beside you, still having fun (well as much as you can have until the weird ending hits you...). And you could go off the track, read diaries, etc. Just getting additional information.
I don't want to say that the additional information there was good or meaningful, but Bioshock is a good example of seperating the absolutely necessary from the interesting rest.

I guess you can just render it, but call me dumb, but I really prefer to read something in addition.

Yep. Again, in addition.

Also, you can never show smell by visual means.

Not yet

 

[Shoelip]

You know, the E3 dev interview on Gametrailers had the developers saying it was an action game with RPG elements. It was kind of funny to read the comments though. Someone said something like,

"It's an action game? Too bad it's not an RPG, oh well I guess I'll give it a try anyway."

I wonder if they're an Oblivion fan or not...

 

[easychord]

It's a shame that people think that reading is such a chore and that lack of reading is a selling point. If that Metal Gears game can sell with 90 minute cutscenes then it seems even more odd that a few paragraphs of non voice acted text are enough to turn people off. Gamers, huh.

Their ideas behind their action game controls seem even more odd to me.

If someone doesn't like God of War or complex fighting game combo controls then their answer is to give them a dumbed down version of the same? Sick of spam, what you need is spam light! Now 50% more digestible and tasteless! Enjoy!

 

[SpaceKungFuMan]

I agree but in the context of everything else, it'll be seen as "background noise". Given there is "evil death" living underneath that the Goblins accidentally dug into as well, I'll believe it when I see it. It's one thing to talk about the Goblin city being a real society when they're the ones you're fighting - sent there to clear them out by the human city above - it's another thing entirely when there's even more evil underneath which needs to be killed. It demotes the interesting Goblin city from a "learn about them and understand their world" to "find the blacksmith to sell all your phat loot" (though this game apparently doesn't have loot).

The conversations on the Codex about a living and breathing world all end in talk about deeper and more meaningful quests. I just don't see it here. All I see will be you'll walk into an area and a guy will walk by carrying another guy on a stretcher and you'll go "cool" and then look around for whatever it is you're meant to be killing there. And as treave already said, what's the point of Terry Pratchet if there's no giant slabs of text?

I guess we're just coming from different places here. I'm the rare person who actually sees classification as more than semantics. I get in to mood to play and RPG, or an action game, and when I'm in the mood for an RPG, an action RPG won't cut it (unless the RPG is fantastic like Bloodlines, which redeems the shit combat). But when I approach a diablo clone, I'm not sitting in my lofty RPG afficiando's seat, and I expect MUCH less from the game. I basically just expect to have fun fighting and building a character. If this game delivers fun on those fronts (combat actually sounds awful now, so I'm doubtful) then the living city is just a big plus. And if going into the underworld yields a logically laid out setting where the demons exist for a reason and have houses and things, that that's cool with me.

Here's the simplest way I can put it. If this game was nothing but an exact clone of diablo where the people in the town walked around and gave the impression of life in a destroyed town, and the dungeons were laid out to be coherent tombs instead of mazes, I would view that as a successful addition to the basic Diablo formula.

 

[Jasede]

That's cool and all, but I was kinda hoping for an RPG underneath all the action buzzwords. Don't get me wrong - I'll likely love Diablo 3. But it's not what the RPG-lover inside me craves. Oh no, he wants a new Arcanum, or Wizardry 9, or Ultima X Zero: The True Story.

 

[SpaceKungFuMan]

That's cool and all, but I was kinda hoping for an RPG underneath all the action buzzwords. Don't get me wrong - I'll likely love Diablo 3. But it's not what the RPG-lover inside me craves. Oh no, he wants a new Arcanum, or Wizardry 9, or Ultima X Zero: The True Story.

We get very little anymore. Obsidian is doing alright, but Troika were the ones that really kept the faith. If I could undue black isle closing or Troika closing, I'd save Troika. . .

 

[Lemunde]

I'm glad to see developers are finally doing away with old-fashioned text and going with the much newer audio and visual approach. It's advancements in technology like this that push the gaming industry forward.

It's getting harder and harder to tell whether or not someone around here is being sarcastic.

 

[FrancoTAU]

Okay, I apologize to DU. This game sounds like a steaming pile of shit.

 

[Micmu]

In before Firefly closes doors thread.

 

[Murk]

i still think it could be a lot of fun, but the de-emphasis on text is bleh, especially if they wanted to make the game world living

if they meant it doesn't have torment style HUGE blocks of text at once, that's fine, but i do hope there's a lot of character interaction, communication, and dialog