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Dying in Adventures

Death In Adventures

  • Dying is good, Deadend rockz!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Death Yes, Deadend No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Death No, Deadend Yeah

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, I like it idiot-safe and risk-free

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • If you act too dumb there should be consequences, but it should be rare

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Ladders & Snakes

Educated
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Do you hate it? Or do you feel that the developers were- in the end - overdoing the LucasArts "no dead end, no death" doctrine?

Did adventures become too much pansy-adapted?
 

commie

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In Sierra games, everything would kill you and while it seemed annoying as fuck, (particularly in games like Larry 2 where if you forgot to take an item somewhere three hours earlier, you'd fucking die on that lifeboat. :rage:) in a way it provided much more definitive feedback that what you are doing is wrong than the Lucasfilm method where nothing would kill you and you wouldn't be sure if persevering in trying to do something was correct or not.

The stay alive method is ok in light-hearted games where getting ripped to pieces if going the wrong way is quite jarring, compare Monkey Island with Space Quest or LSL where death is kind of out of place.

On the other hand, more serious adventure games with violence, war, crime etc. should have fatal consequences. It's ridiculous in Runaway when Gina is being threatened and the 'clock ticking', to be able to leisurely spend the next 6 hours walking around before finally rescuing her. Even though I loathe timed puzzles, there should be a limit to the amount of fucking around you can do.
 

Wolfus

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Did you ever play Future Wars (Delphin Software)? We used to call it "Death-at-every-sterp" :) Also horror games like Black Mirror would be strange without death.
 
Unwanted

Scream Phoenix

Unwanted
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671
Some games do it right (I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream)

Some games do it wrong to fuck with you (Larry)
 

Wolfus

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roladka said:
Some games do it right (I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream)

Some games do it wrong to fuck with you (Larry)

Absolutely. I Have No Mouth is brilliant example of game, where dying is sometimes better than living. I have to play it again...
 

DraQ

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I don't enjoy learn-by-dying and consider long, unpredictable (meaning that player has no means of predicting that doing/not doing something now will determine success/failure in the future) dead ends to be quite malicious.

There are subgenres basing on such things, but as general practice I consider those wrong. OTOH, player not being smart or perceptive enough should be punished and making it lethal or resulting in a dead end is a fair game.

I picked the last option.
 

SerratedBiz

Arcane
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
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4,143
The final scenes of Laura Bow 2 were made all the more thriling by knowing you could be killed. It doesn't mean you should be able to die at any time, ala Larry, but it can add to the atmosphere (the first times you die, at the very least). Same with King's Quest, Space Quest, QFG, et al.

Sierra got it right.
 

Sceptic

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Don't mind dying, in fact trying to find all crazy ways to get killed in SQ was part of the fun. Dead ends I like less. Dead end because of outright player stupidity is fine, though only if it kills you eventually ala LSL2 (because if you get stuck and don't even KNOW you're in a dead end, then spend hours looking for a puzzle that doesn't exist, then that's just mean). I must say that, overall, presence or absence of death or dead ends doesn't really affect my overall enjoyment of a game, though it may create huge bouts of frustration at one point. Nice things about adventures being so short once you know the solution is that even if you have to restart you can be back where you got stuck in less than an hour.
 

Unkillable Cat

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SerratedBiz said:
Sierra got it right.

LO-fuckin-L.

Sierra got it SO WRONG. In fact, they got it so wrong for so long that by the time they realized what they were doing wrong and corrected it, it was already too late for them.

Leisure Suit Larry 2 has been mentioned, so I'll iterate on that. At one point you find yourself on a lifeboat and need to survive for days (weeks?) relying only on what items you've hoarded in the game up until then.

Like was mentioned, if you don't pick up a 32-gallon "cup" of soda at the start of the game, you'll die of thirst. (As we all know, logic and physics are not reliable when playing some Sierra adventure games, so let's just ignore the cases where they get grossly violated.) But that's not good enough for Sierra. You'll need to eat something too. That means taking the dip from the ship first. BUT, here's the kicker, if you DO take the dip, you'll die from food poisoning! Don't get me starting on the "pixel-hunt" with the sewing kit, or how the endgame only recognizes a strict set of commands at very strict locations. So much for vocabulary, I guess.

Not good enough? Play Police Quest. The "hoops" you're made to go through while playing the Police Quest games are numerous and annoying. Most of them make sense as Police Quest was partially intended as a training guide for police cadets, but there are times you just want to strangle Jim Walsh. Codename: Iceman is even worse.

Best example of Jim Walsh being an ass: You're asked for ID by a guard. You hand over the (fake) ID. Guard checks the ID, finds it OK, then hands it back to you. BUT, if you don't check your ID AFTER it is handed back to you, you lose. But you don't get to know that fact until much later in the game.

Gold Rush is the worst offender of them all. I don't have the heart to list how excruciating it is to play that game.

At least Quest For Glory often gave you fair warning before throwing you into a situation you could get killed in.

But then people are propably asking, do I rabidly support LucasArts's stance of "cannot be killed, never ever forever"? No. Because once you realize that you can't die in an adventure game, there's absolutely NOTHING stopping you from trying whatever you can think of, and combining everything with everything. Because you KNOW that whatever happens will not screw you over, you will not have to re-load a previously saved game. At worst you are simply given a chance to try again.

And this is precisely how every single adventure game released these days acts. Sierra On-Line went so completely overboard with their "Everything can and will kill you for no reason whatsoever" mentality, that nearly all adventure game designers have avoided it like the plague. But by doing so they have completely gone overboard in the other direction. This is why the new Sam & Max games by Telltale are boring as fuck, because even though you're packing a fucking GUN that you can point and click at whatever and whomever you want, you can't screw yourself over with it.

This has to be balanced. Very few games managed to do that. It wasn't until 1996 in Space Quest 6 that Sierra finally implemented a "OOPS" feature in an adventure game, allowing you to undo a stupid mistake that got you killed. A feature that, IIRC, was disabled at key moments in the game. That meant that while you were (mostly) protected by your own in-game stupidity, you weren't immortal either. But it was just too late. People were catching on to the frustrating gameplay of the Sierra games, and the gamer's attention was shifting away to First-Person-Shooters, so it was inevitable that their time was up.
 

Sceptic

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Unkillable Cat said:
Because once you realize that you can't die in an adventure game, there's absolutely NOTHING stopping you from trying whatever you can think of, and combining everything with everything. Because you KNOW that whatever happens will not screw you over
Some of Lucas's best games were aware of this and used it to make the game even more fun. In DoTT, S&M and others of that era combining random things with each other produced usually hilarious comments. Not quite the best way to discourage trial and error though...

Fate of Atlantis balanced this really well I think. It was possible to die, but unless you picked fights with everyone it was restricted to limited places where dying made sense (like the endgame)

It wasn't until 1996 in Space Quest 6 that Sierra finally implemented a "OOPS" feature
1993 and LSL6, actually. There were a few other non-Sierra games with the same mechanic around that time too (Rex Nebular).

Also interesting to note: LSL5, in 1991, was a Sierra game where it was impossible to die AND impossible to get into a dead end. It did give the game a very strange feel.
 

commie

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Oh Codename fucking Iceman....that took my sanity. Never finished it.

Strangely though, I managed to overcome most of the other Sierra games I played without any help despite these days having hardly the logical ability to finish anything. Not that I play modern adventures all that much, I tend to lose interest pretty quickly.

Shit, I was so much smarter when I was 12-15 than I am now.....I'd go through Infocom games on my Amstrad in the 80's, but now?
 

Manny

Educated
Joined
Nov 27, 2009
Messages
60
And this is precisely how every single adventure game released these days acts. Sierra On-Line went so completely overboard with their "Everything can and will kill you for no reason whatsoever" mentality, that nearly all adventure game designers have avoided it like the plague. But by doing so they have completely gone overboard in the other direction. This is why the new Sam & Max games by Telltale are boring as fuck, because even though you're packing a fucking GUN that you can point and click at whatever and whomever you want, you can't screw yourself over with it.

So? I think that dying or not dying depends of the kind of adventure you want to make/play. For example, Lucas Arts games, like Sam & Max, Day of the Tentacle or Secret of Monkey Island (well, technically, there you can die in one place, but only if you don’t know what to do in more than 10 minutes), don’t lose anything for not dying. Moreover, I will say that they benefit of this design decision: because they are comedy games, then you can try anything with everything and you almost allways find a funny dialogue about what you’re trying to do. The reasons why they are three of the best adventure games created don’t come from dying or not dying.

But it is true that other games can benefit from this mechanic. For example, I really like that in certain parts you can die in Gabriel Knight 1, even if you can load just before this death: this gives you a sense of urgency about what you have to do. Some scenes of the Police Quest games also benefit from this. But this kind of games “need” that you can die because they are trying to emulate reality. I think one of the things that I don’t like of Full Throttle is that you can’t die in any of the fights with the other bikers or at the end of the game.

Dead ends are other matter and I think that they are always bad. In my opinion, letting you advance in a game without knowing that you have “missed” a crucial item is not good design, because there’s a moment when you don’t know if you aren’t advancing more in the adventure because you can’t solve the most recent “puzzle” or because you´ve missed some item. At the end, you are going to look for a walkthrough even if you don’t want to. If the player knows that there aren’t dead ends, then he can continue to “look for the answer” without turning to external aid.

And about Sam & Max by Telltale, have you played the Second Season? Because if you’ve played it, I don’t know why you think they are “boring as fuck”. The story is absurdely good (like Hit the Road), the dialogues are very funny and good (Hit the Road is better in this respect), the characters facial expressions are excelent, very expressive, and, best of all, the puzzles are great. Some are very easy, like the majority of adventures nowadays, but some of them are just as good as the best of the genre. You really have to think “out of the box” to solve them, but they are never illogical (at least if you “enter” the wacky world of the Freelance Police). If you haven’t played that season, I can tell you about some of them.

Finally, I think that the pleasure of playing an adventure game doesn’t come from the fact that you can die or not. It derives from the ability of figuring out how to overcome an actual obastacle-puzzle using your wits to advance in the story. Obviously, the better the puzzles are integrated to the main story, the better the game is. In that sense, saying that an adventure game is boring because you can’t die is like saying that an RPG is boring because you don’t have puzzles in it. I think that none are essential to their respective genre.
 

el Supremo

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Death? By all means. Sure, in some games (Syberia comes to mind) it would not fit at all.
Then again, the hybrids are the best. So I do not mind an adventure game with arcade sequences. As long as it not means dumbed down puzzles. Something like this one once was:

1674dbs1.png

Not so easy puzzle adventure game, and quite difficult third person shooter at the same time. With optional co-op, to the boot[/img]
 

Forest Dweller

Smoking Dicks
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Oct 29, 2008
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12,210
If Deadend means what I think it means, then it is an abomination that should be wiped out from the face of gaming.
 

Elzair

Cipher
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Dicksmoker said:
If Deadend means what I think it means, then it is an abomination that should be wiped out from the face of gaming.

Yeah, I mean come on! This is totally like RPGs that do not allow you to change your build. Sometimes, you will encounter items and challenges that you could not have accounted for or make some mistakes on your build. If you do not allow players to respec their builds easily when they screw themselves over, they may have to restart the game!
 

Elzair

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Seriously, I don't get to say this often (being mostly a 'casual gamer' at heart), but stop whining, pussies! Sierra games are awesome!
 

Unkillable Cat

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Manny said:
And about Sam & Max by Telltale, have you played the Second Season? Because if you’ve played it, I don’t know why you think they are “boring as fuck”. The story is absurdely good (like Hit the Road), the dialogues are very funny and good (Hit the Road is better in this respect), the characters facial expressions are excelent, very expressive, and, best of all, the puzzles are great. Some are very easy, like the majority of adventures nowadays, but some of them are just as good as the best of the genre. You really have to think “out of the box” to solve them, but they are never illogical (at least if you “enter” the wacky world of the Freelance Police).

Yes, I have played Season 2. In fact, I just played through it last week.

Story absurdly good? No. At least, not to begin with. To start, where's the "case"? Season 1 and Hit The Road gave you a clear case to go with, and then events would unfold, spindle and mutilate themselves (deliberately at times) from there. Season 2? There is absolutely NOTHING that connects together the events in the first three episodes, and that's quite a feat of accomplishment considering that this is Sam & Max. It isn't until the middle of the fourth episode that Telltale manages to tie all these events together, and the only reason they succeed at that is because... it's Sam & Max. Suspension of disbelief is not required.

Brilliant conversations? Yes and no. I can't recall a single memorable line or joke from Season 1, but I'm fairly certain at least a couple of jokes will stick with me from Season 2. As for facial expressions, staring at each other silently with an open mouth hardly constitutes excellent facial features. The faces in Season 2 at least are not expressionless facades, but they're not comedy gold either.

I'll admit that the story, plotline and the jokes all pick up in the last two episodes, but everything leading up to that feels forced and paper-thin. The game relies WAY too much on Season 1 to stand on its own, down to the point that they should recommend you play Season 1 right before playing Season 2.

(I haven't played Season 3 yet for the very simple reason that it isn't commercially available in a non-Steam version... yet.)
 

Manny

Educated
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Yes, I have played Season 2. In fact, I just played through it last week.

Story absurdly good? No. At least, not to begin with. To start, where's the "case"? Season 1 and Hit The Road gave you a clear case to go with, and then events would unfold, spindle and mutilate themselves (deliberately at times) from there. Season 2? There is absolutely NOTHING that connects together the events in the first three episodes, and that's quite a feat of accomplishment considering that this is Sam & Max. It isn't until the middle of the fourth episode that Telltale manages to tie all these events together, and the only reason they succeed at that is because... it's Sam & Max. Suspension of disbelief is not required.

Well, here we have to desagree then. To me it was interesting exactly because of what you’re criticizing: how all this little “independent” episode cases were each more absurd than the other but come to the fourth and fifth episodes they all come together, so to speak. The fact that you don’t have a “big case” since the beginning wasn’t a problem for me. I think that one of the reasons why it is difficult to agree on common criteria to value the story in this kind of games (possitive or negative) comes from their episodic format, which we aren’t used to yet. But, like I told you, I really like how they manage to tie all the events and I also find the independent cases good, but I can understand that you didn’t like the general structure of the story.

Brilliant conversations? Yes and no. I can't recall a single memorable line or joke from Season 1, but I'm fairly certain at least a couple of jokes will stick with me from Season 2. As for facial expressions, staring at each other silently with an open mouth hardly constitutes excellent facial features. The faces in Season 2 at least are not expressionless facades, but they're not comedy gold either.

Well, I never said “brilliant conversations”. I said “funny and good”, and I think that they are. Not at the same level that Hit the Road (like I said). After playing Season 2, I replayed the original Sam and Max and the dialogues were better. And about facial expressions, come on, they don’t only look at each other silently. It is easy to think of various moments Telltale plays with the expressions (corporal and facial) to make jokes. On more precise terms, what I wanted to say was that they have achieved to transmit humour with the expressions of the characters. And those cases were they stare at each other silently were a good laugh as well.

I'll admit that the story, plotline and the jokes all pick up in the last two episodes, but everything leading up to that feels forced and paper-thin. The game relies WAY too much on Season 1 to stand on its own, down to the point that they should recommend you play Season 1 right before playing Season 2.

I think the 2 first episodes are ok (at the same level that other current adventures), but the third is very good, the fourth is excellent and the fifth is very good too. I hadn’t thought about how much this season relies on Season 1 until you said it. And maybe it’s true, but that isn’t a problem to me. When I play games in a series I know that I have to know what happens in the previous game to understand some of the things that are happening.

In any case, while I can understand that you don’t like Sam and Max from Telltale, I can’t agree that they were “boring as fuck” because the characters can’t die. This seems to me like a shallow argument.

And one question: What do you think about the puzzles? You never mentioned them. Since the old days I hadn’t played adventure games with, from my point of view, puzzles so great like some on this season of Sam and Max.

(I haven't played Season 3 yet for the very simple reason that it isn't commercially available in a non-Steam version... yet.)

By the end of 2010, Telltale sold the 3 Seasons with a very good discount. I had played Season 1 when it was released and I took this opportunity to buy the last 2 seasons. I played season 2 last month, but I have Season 3 still waiting for me. Right now I’m playing Clive Barker’s Undying and after that I have planned to play The Black Cauldron and Gold Rush! Then Season 3. And I see that you want to try it too. Why, if you were so bored by Season 2?
 

Achilles

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I have no problem with death in adventure games, as long as it is based on logic. Random deaths with no clue as to what you did wrong are stupid and so are dead-ends.
 

Elzair

Cipher
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Dicksmoker said:
I have never been unable to finish an rpg because of a bad build.

Have you ever tried to beat Gothic II (especially with NotR) as a melee fighter?
 

SoupNazi

Guest
Elzair said:
Have you ever tried to beat Gothic II (especially with NotR) as a melee fighter?
Perfectly doable with one-handed sword specialization.
 

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