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Development Info Experience Systems: Loves and Hates

Grunker

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Some Moron On Welfare said:
Bloodlines' system was okay for a linear, story driven game, but it wouldn't work in, say, Morrowind.

Not if you accept that not everything has to yield XP, if it yields loot. Not perfect, I know, but I still dislike the kill enemy = gain XP version so much for any game that let's you do at least something without combat, that I'd rather have it done that way.

Even in Morrowind you could couple the objective-XP a la Bloodlines with Exploration-XP, as Zed suggested. So, how you get to the bottom of the dungeon doesn't matter (whether sneaking, killing, or some other, creative way).
 

Zomg

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Huh? You can grind all you want in JA2. Just having parallel LBD and XP level up systems doesn't do anything but kick the can down the road a little.
 

chzr

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sure you can grind, but only way to prevent grinding is having "fixed" amount of XP in whole game (regardless if you gain xp/skill increase from enemies or only quests).

This system can work in "corridor" games (like mass effect 2) because you simply will gain enough experience just by completing quests/missions and reach max level even you don't want to.

This however won't work well in open world games, because you can't 'feed' the player with xp during 'main quest' because he can choose not the follow the track. So you probably can't completely eliminate griding there.

And JA2 wasn't that terrible in grinding imho. Only skill that could be increased quickly was explosives...
 
In My Safe Space
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Zomg said:
Huh? You can grind all you want in JA2. Just having parallel LBD and XP level up systems doesn't do anything but kick the can down the road a little.
Except that you don't have to because you can simply have the characters train their skill alone or be taught by another character.
 

Coyote

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I'm also a fan of the Bloodlines system. And as Grunker suggests, it can be adapted to open-world games.

One way to do this is to reward exploration and certain achievements with XP, ala Deus Ex. Defeated a powerful type of enemy for the first time or a unique enemy? XP+. Snuck through a heavily guarded bank to reach a vault within? XP+. Talked an enemy into giving up his mission? XP+. And so on. Of course, limitations would have to be put in place to prevent abuses and keep jack-of-all-trades types from becoming overpowered.* Raising skills at higher levels might require more XP than at lower levels, and the XP bonuses would increase for more difficult tasks, discouraging spreading your skills too broadly. A limit on the number of skills you can raise past a certain point could also help mitigate this, as could something akin to cross-class skills where it's costs much harder to raise skills you haven't tagged or which don't jive well with your attributes (e.g., someone with low STR and END would require more XP to raise his combat skills, someone with low INT and CHA would require more XP to raise his persuasive skills, etc.). In the end, it might be easier just to make a raise-via-use system, but it's also difficult to prevent abuses in those and, I'd imagine, doubly so for an open-world game.

* I don't care so much about balance in single-player RPGs, but it is somewhat important in the sense of preventing TES-syndrome, where every decent character eventually gravitates towards a certain archetype. (In TES's case, this is the fighter/mage/thief that everyone eventually becomes unless actively gimping their character and/or LARPing.)

Another option is to limit experience rewards to quests and such, and encourage exploration via rare items, backstory and information that could prove useful like Vree's report in FO, picking up useful techniques, etc. This seems to favor finishing as many quests as possible in order to get the most out of exploring, but this problem could be lessened somewhat if whatever is gleaned from exploration proves necessary/extremely useful for completing the quests. I don't like this method as much, though, as it seems rather arbitrary to reward XP for actions performed during a sidequest but not for the same actions performed outside of one.

In the end, I'm (tentatively) of the view that the Bloodlines system works best in the context of linear games and smaller open-world games like FO, but I'd lean towards learn-by-doing in the case of larger open worlds with many optional areas, like Morrowind's or Gothic 3's. In any case, anything is better than the XP-per-kill system unless the game is a dungeon-crawler or similar type of game where 90+ percent of what the player does is either combat or preparing for combat.
 

mondblut

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PTD nailed it. Skills by use without much space for intentional grinding (no acrobatics crap, fairly scarce combats) + bonus points rewarded for quests to spend at will like Natuk or that VTMB shooter, + trainers for cash to beef up those pesky non-combat skills you can't really build in the field, + stats increase and feats granted as relevant skills reach specific thresholds, + hitpoints only increase when specific stats rise = perfekshun.

While an occasional oldschool massive xp grind like Wizardry or Goldbox is welcome for a change, I don't see why a modern RPG would use any other game mechanics than the one introduced in PTD. Oh wait, there are no modern RPGs being in production, only tomb raider clones with dialogue and achievements, disregard that.
 

JarlFrank

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mondblut said:
While an occasional oldschool massive xp grind like Wizardry or Goldbox is welcome for a change, I don't see why a modern RPG would use any other game mechanics than the one introduced in PTD. Oh wait, there are no modern RPGs being in production, only tomb raider clones with dialogue and achievements, disregard that.

Also, if they try to "revolutionize" or change the experience system, they usually do it by "streamlining", which means making it either a stupid gimmick or making skills completely insignificant, effectively removing the system entirely.
 

Zomg

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I actually read the thread for this at the ITS forums and I find I reiterated almost exactly what galsiah wrote about it even though I haven't read anything there since the AoD combat demo came out

just like old times :cry:
 

DefJam101

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More games with (nearly) static attributes would be nice, like Fallout or Darklands. It makes implementing a power curve more difficult but generally speaking RPGs that end in demigod status suck.
 

commie

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Zomg said:
The Betrayal at Krondor system is ridiculously terrible. The correct strategy is to go into the menu and refocus on whatever you are about to do to maximize XP i.e. the correct strategy is both idiotic and tedious i.e. the design is bad.

If I had a game with time implemented (like ZRPG seems to want), meaning everything gets a real opportunity cost, I'd go with no XP at all and just abstract training/practice. If you want to shoehorn in learn-by-doing you can have training raise potential caps and then you raise skills to that cap by actually doing it (or some combination). You can also "cap the caps" by tying your current maximum trainable levels to items like manuals or trainer characters.

But design is pretty fucking easy if your game has opportunity cost anyway.

I like the idea of time in game and no XP. So you can train all you want BUT apart from cost(for trainers if you want to learn new techniques), you also need to allocate time and this can come either during quests, exploration OR just making camp and training. The downside is that just sitting around training lets the 'bad mofo' complete whatever evil plan he has going, and makes your task harder or impossible. So you have to compromise a bit with getting the most you can during as short a time period as possible.
 

Zomg

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Well like I said it's a cute design to imagine but having real opportunity cost in an RPG is the real trick, even obviously stupid design will still usually run downhill from that point.
 
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Major_Blackhart said:
I was thinking on the idea of a skill system that actually granted you experience points based on what skills you used. For instance, a guy who uses an axe to hack his way though a discussion is hardly going to be the whiz kid at a board meeting.
etc.


DON'T YOU DARE RUIN MY CHILDHOOD MEMORY OF THE 'CONAN THE LIBRARIAN' SKIT!!! It was Weird Al's one good moment, and you had to take it away from him (sob).
 

Grunker

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Major_Blackhart said:
I was thinking on the idea of a skill system that actually granted you experience points based on what skills you used. For instance, a guy who uses an axe to hack his way though a discussion is hardly going to be the whiz kid at a board meeting.
etc.

This argument takes root solely in realism - not in effective or good game mechanics.

I'm not saying it can't fulfill both, but I don't really care whether my experience system is realistic as long as it works well within the game.
 

DraQ

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Grunker said:
Major_Blackhart said:
I was thinking on the idea of a skill system that actually granted you experience points based on what skills you used. For instance, a guy who uses an axe to hack his way though a discussion is hardly going to be the whiz kid at a board meeting.
etc.

This argument takes root solely in realism - not in effective or good game mechanics.
Nope. This argument takes root solely in making sense. The distinction is subtle - while there can be superfluous realism (like PC having to vacate their bowels regularly), there is really nothing like superfluous sense, and axing your way into supreme diplomacy just happens to make none.

I'm not saying it can't fulfill both, but I don't really care whether my experience system is realistic as long as it works well within the game.
In a PnP RPG about anything goes as GM can supply his own sense if the ruleset is lacking.

In a cRPG ruleset is everything, so it has to incorporate all the sense necessary.
 
In My Safe Space
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DraQ said:
Grunker said:
Major_Blackhart said:
I was thinking on the idea of a skill system that actually granted you experience points based on what skills you used. For instance, a guy who uses an axe to hack his way though a discussion is hardly going to be the whiz kid at a board meeting.
etc.

This argument takes root solely in realism - not in effective or good game mechanics.
Nope. This argument takes root solely in making sense. The distinction is subtle - while there can be superfluous realism (like PC having to vacate their bowels regularly), there is really nothing like superfluous sense, and axing your way into supreme diplomacy just happens to make none.
Yeah, also, it introduces some choices and consequences into PCs behaviour. You make choices how the PC behaves and it affects how he grows as a character which in turn affects the whole gameplay.
 

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