Interview Feargus Urquhart talks Dungeon Siege, Fallout and new IP

[ironyuri]

I made a thread a while ago about NBA20K11.

The character creation process in NBA20K11 involves extremely complex, much more so than any cRPG I've ever played, chargen.

First you pick your height and weight and position on the court.

The taller you are, the less overall stats you start with for distribution. Tall and heavy is bad news, tall and skinny is equally bad news. Depending on position, shooting guard, center, etc, you get different stats at actual chargen.

Once in chargen you have to pick stats in several categories, two of which are offensive and defensive. There are also stats which effect dialogue skills in post-game press conferences, your overall team chemistry and the way your character plays out.

After this, you have to pick how your character looks.

The sheer amount of stats was impenetrable for me because I know very little about the technical aspects of basketball.

This brings me to the point of my post: If basketball fans, NFL fans, baseball fans, football (soccer) fans and in general sports fans, can push through chargen which involved delicate and sophisticated numerical decision making in order to create a player who is both good at his position and valuable to the overall team.

So why the fuck do studios think players are unable to handle chargen in RPGs? Seriously. For the love of motherfucking god. If you can have a fucking 15+ minute chargen session just to start playing a career sports season in the latest iteration of your favourite sports game, why the fuck would RPG devs think their traditional audience and even the new casuals who probably play sports games too, would not be able to handle numbers?

 

[DragoFireheart]

It’s almost unfair not to say that RPGs over the course of the years have been dumbed down for consoles.

‘So what do role-playing gamers want now?’ The way that I see it is: I always look at accessibility.

A company I used to work for was Black Isle Studios and a PC game I worked on was Icewind Dale, which required you to roll six whole second-edition D&D characters before you could even start playing the game. No one would get through character creation nowadays.

Laidlaw, is that you?

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

It's interesting, how Icewind Dale as he mentionend was considered too "complicated" at startup, while Neverwinter Nights 2, a game which came out a bit more recent, had way more possibilities, variables and stuff to choose from at character creation

He's referring to having to roll 6 characters before you get to play. In nwn2/motb you only get to make one character and in SOZ you play right after making your first character.

So no, he doesn't contradict himself.

 

[janjetina]

With all the diarrhea gushing from his mouth, Urukheart must have contracted a case of verbal disenteria. Is there a problem with an easier solution than the one quoted below?

Accessibility = include pre-made Characters to choose from as an alternative to roll one.
If a player can't be bothered with Character creation - or if it should proof to be too difficult for him - give him the option to select 6 pre-made Chars from a list. I think Icewind Dale even gave you that option all those years ago.

Problem solved!

 

[l3loodAngel]

The point is if you can't even make a character in a game you should remove yourself from the gene pool, wtf are you even doing playing games if that's too hard for you?

Can you even imagine how many people should be removed from the gene pool? And they dont play games that requires learning stuff. So why we are left with stuff we dont want to play...

 

[Darth Roxor]

I think a part of it is that games are evolving, and so a lot of it is looking at it going, ‘So what do role-playing gamers want now?’ The way that I see it is: I always look at accessibility. Accessibility does not necessarily mean ‘dumbing down’, it means that when the player starts the game it has to be accessible to them.

Icewind Dale, which required you to roll six whole second-edition D&D characters before you could even start playing the game. No one would get through character creation nowadays.

Jesus K Reist.

 

[circ]

That Feargus cockhole is a funny man.

It's strange how JRPG's, a console exclusive largely, have had their combat, character and inventory systems staying largely the same, and gotten more complex if anything. Yet, Feargus feels the need to defend dumbing even something like that down for the western market.

 

[Mastermind]

No one would get through character creation nowadays.

i said a big FUCK YOU after this.

Character creation is one of the most fun aspects.

That's ironic because I bought their piece of shit NWN2 + MOTB and the only fun part is the character creation.

Actually playing an Obshitian game is like getting raped by a pack of midgets with crocodile shaped dildos.

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

Is there a problem with an easier solution than the one quoted below?

Accessibility = include pre-made Characters to choose from as an alternative to roll one.
If a player can't be bothered with Character creation - or if it should proof to be too difficult for him - give him the option to select 6 pre-made Chars from a list. I think Icewind Dale even gave you that option all those years ago.

Problem solved!

Different solutions for different kinds of gamers, people who'd be happy with using pre-generated characters are possibly a minority among the audience.

Consider the context of Uncle Feargus' statement: people who might be unfamiliar with the game's system. Players unfamiliar with an rpg's system are prone to restart a couple of times while they're getting the hang of it, if we're talking a 6 man D&D party with some levels it could easily take 20-30 minutes each time.

I don't have a problem with the way SOZ did it.

 

[Mastermind]

So, if we hit our vertical slice then it makes us really ready for production and then production goes more smoothly. If we then hit our alpha date, then everything after that is pretty much just bug polish, tuning and things like that, then it just guarantees that we hit our end dates and I think that is something that we as a developer, and others out there, all have to get better at.

At least he's honest.

 

[Zarniwoop]

The point is if you can't even make a character in a game you should remove yourself from the gene pool, wtf are you even doing playing games if that's too hard for you?

Can you even imagine how many people should be removed from the gene pool? And they dont play games that requires learning stuff. So why we are left with stuff we dont want to play...

It was actually me who said that, not Shannow, but nevermind.

If people don't like games, especially RPGs, they should go do something else. Why are developers/publishers fucking up the games we like to make them easier for morons?

For example, if I decided to take up sailing or some shit, I would learn how to do it properly. If I couldn't get myself to do it even after trying or realised I just didn't like it, I'd go do something else I do like. I wouldn't want them to give me an unsinkable boat, with a jet engine on because sailing is teh hardz, then go tell all my friends how awesome sailing is, and eventually outnumber the people who actually like sailing, until all that's left is a bunch of twits blasting around on unsinkable boats with jet engines and GPS-guided autopilot.

But, we wouldn't actually be sailing then, would we? We'd be doing something new, because we never actually liked the original, we just thought we did because we didn't understand it...

 

[Shemar]

What he really means is: "We used to sell games for a niche audience that appreciated deep mechanics, but nowadays we want to sell millions of copies to gamers who like a simpler experience and THEY WOULD NOT GET THROUGH CHARACTER GENERATION".

This. All the ranting and raving in the world will not change that.

There is a feeding off each other effect here in the Codex that makes a lot of members actually believe that the people who like the deep role playing game mechanics of the past represent a measurable market share. They do not. Not for the kind of sales these major developers/publishers are looking for.

I have long given up on even the remotest possibility that a AAA title will ever cater to my specific needs again. Thankfully I am not as stuck in my ways as to be unable to enjoy some major titles for what they are and a large selection of indie titles fill the rest of the void in my gaming needs. Ranting and raving about big companies wanting to sell millions of copies and thus catering to much less sophisticated audiences is just a waste of my energy.

Life won't scale down and make everything easy for you kid, you have to adapt and just deal with it.

And here the sad turns tragic. Because it is not games that are being dumbed down, it is the human race...

 

[hoverdog]

You fuckers should love Skyrim then...now with 80% more beards to choose from!

80% more than zero is still zero

 

[Andyman Messiah]

Obsidian’s Feargus Urquhart talks Dungeon Siege, Fallout and new IPI think a part of it is that games are evolving, and so a lot of it is looking at it going, ‘So what do role-playing gamers want now?’

I think Your finger slipped here, VoD.

As for character creation, removing it is not the best idea out there. Angelo said it well, a few posts above. Ok, make a bunch of pre-made characters for people who don't want to create their own. Hell, even make the premade ones the default choice, if You have to, but with a tiny 'customize character/party' button somewhere on the screen. For some people that may be the whole point to play the game!

All I'm asking is: BE REASONABLE - DO NOT REMOVE RPG FEATURES FROM RPGS.

What RPGs?

One thing to keep in mind is that there is a difference between character creation today and character creation in the past. Most cc is just about giving your character a name and a face and a couple of attributes here and there, but nothing really special or advanced. Actually the one feature today's gamers can get stuck tweaking for hours and never be satisfied with is the appearance of their character. Oh yes. Character creation today = dressing up.

Example. Start a new game of your favorite Bethesda game. Most of us don't give a shit about what our characters look like, it's a fucking first person game after all and there is no reason to ever go into third person mode. If played correctly, you will never see your character's face. And herein lies a useless feature of character creation that should be removed. It's a vanity feature for people that like to pose their characters with guns and upload them to the Nexus sites, so fuck those people and remove that shit.

tl;dr
Character creation in the past: just put in a name and fiddle with your numbers, then push play.
Character creation today: THOSE CHEEK BONES LOOK TERRIBLE!!

edit: Also, don't kid yourselves, people, we ARE in the minority here. Just accept that "roleplaying" and "character creation" means something entirely different these days.

 

[Jaesun]

The Horse speaks the truth.

 

[thesisko]

I have long given up on even the remotest possibility that a AAA title will ever cater to my specific needs again. Thankfully I am not as stuck in my ways as to be unable to enjoy some major titles for what they are and a large selection of indie titles fill the rest of the void in my gaming needs. Ranting and raving about big companies wanting to sell millions of copies and thus catering to much less sophisticated audiences is just a waste of my energy.

Doesn't have to be "indie", but it's not going to sell millions. It's just insulting to hear someone who's company made a game with deep character generation just 2.5 years ago to claim that gamers have since then "evolved" to a place where they won't accept that anymore. He could simply state that Obsidian (or the publishers they are approaching) aren't interested in games of that scope anymore.

 

[Reject_666_6]

What's everybody getting so riled up about? He's pretty much right about what he said, and he said it without resorting to bullshit spin. No dumb console gamer would bother with creating 6 characters before getting to the action.

If you'd like to go on believing that Obsidian is some kind of remnant from the 90s ready to change the face of gaming, carry on.

 

[thesisko]

What's everybody getting so riled up about? He's pretty much right about what he said, and he said it without resorting to bullshit spin. No dumb console gamer would bother with creating 6 characters before getting to the action.

He made it sound like it's modern vs. old gamers rather than niche vs. mainstream. There were plenty of simple console games in 2000 that sold boatloads more than Icewind Dale.

 

[nihil]

As some have implied already, I think he meant it as:

No one would get through character creation [in Icewind Dale] nowadays.

Not that it's much better, but it should clear him from suspictions of being psychotic.

 

[DragoFireheart]

There were plenty of simple console games in 2000 that sold boatloads more than Icewind Dale.

But they didn't have cover or health/shield regen or magical trail of crumbs or REVIVE YOU WHEN YOU DIE WITH NO CONSEQUENCES or unkillable NPCs in a game where you could kill NPCs or sauerkraut goat shit.

 

[G.O.D]

I made a thread a while ago about NBA20K11.

The character creation process in NBA20K11 involves extremely complex, much more so than any cRPG I've ever played, chargen.

First you pick your height and weight and position on the court.

The taller you are, the less overall stats you start with for distribution. Tall and heavy is bad news, tall and skinny is equally bad news. Depending on position, shooting guard, center, etc, you get different stats at actual chargen.

Once in chargen you have to pick stats in several categories, two of which are offensive and defensive. There are also stats which effect dialogue skills in post-game press conferences, your overall team chemistry and the way your character plays out.

After this, you have to pick how your character looks.

The sheer amount of stats was impenetrable for me because I know very little about the technical aspects of basketball.

This brings me to the point of my post: If basketball fans, NFL fans, baseball fans, football (soccer) fans and in general sports fans, can push through chargen which involved delicate and sophisticated numerical decision making in order to create a player who is both good at his position and valuable to the overall team.

So why the fuck do studios think players are unable to handle chargen in RPGs? Seriously. For the love of motherfucking god. If you can have a fucking 15+ minute chargen session just to start playing a career sports season in the latest iteration of your favourite sports game, why the fuck would RPG devs think their traditional audience and even the new casuals who probably play sports games too, would not be able to handle numbers?

I totally agree with you, man..
But i do want to point out that dumbing down is creeping into sports games also.
Like in Fifa11, you have the auto aim/pass/shoot crap.
In a fucking sports game :/
Come on...

 

[.Sigurd]

You fuckers should love Skyrim then...now with 80% more beards to choose from!

80% more than zero is still zero

More beards, uh? Pity that you can only chose complete sets of armor instead of individual parts, yes, just like Fallout 3/New Vegas the only slots for armor are head and body. Seems like a fair trade.

 

[Volourn]

"Like in Fifa11, you have the auto aim/pass/shoot crap. "

Been around for eyars in sports games as an option.

Sports games are awesome stats wise though, and it makes sense since stats play a big part in real sports.

It should be pointed out though that nom doubt most sports games players likely don't really worry about stats and whatnot and just play the game as is. They're for the more 'hardcore'.

Anyways, FU to FU!

 

[l3loodAngel]

For example, if I decided to take up sailing or some shit, I would learn how to do it properly. If I couldn't get myself to do it even after trying or realised I just didn't like it, I'd go do something else I do like. I wouldn't want them to give me an unsinkable boat, with a jet engine on because sailing is teh hardz, then go tell all my friends how awesome sailing is, and eventually outnumber the people who actually like sailing, until all that's left is a bunch of twits blasting around on unsinkable boats with jet engines and GPS-guided autopilot.

Tbh the developers are going for call of duty or any action shooter with romances. The general population doesnt want RPGs. They want romances, bromances, gay romances and action. So the developers are going for mainstream. I think the RPGs are a missed opportunity for quake and crisis developers. They just haven't thought that their audience want's a shooter or a fantasy shooter with story and romances.
For me it's simple. If you fight it's an action game ( with of without stats it doesnt matter), if your character's stats fight it's an RPG.

 

[.Sigurd]

if your character's stats fight it's an RPG.

The dice! Don't forget the dice! Otherwise strategy games are RPG too.