Game News First Dragon Age screen & info

[DarkUnderlord]

Re: First Dragon Age screen & info

Really? The ones that were done in the NWN engine? That would be... interesting.

They've already changed engines? That's like sign number #45 of a game that's going to be doomed.

 

[Direwolf]

Re: First Dragon Age screen & info

- The story is dark-much darker than the usual BioWare fare-and influenced by "realistic" modern fantasy like George R. R. Martin's A Game of Thrones.

So will we be able to rape and murder village kids?

 

[serch]

Ok, Gaider explained somewhere that they use the nwn engine as an instrument to help in the design of the game. Some kind of interactive storyboard. They have not changed the engine. VD screenshots seems indeed taken from nwn.

 

[Vault Dweller]

However, I think I know where VD is coming from: us RPGers are heavily biased to like the quasi-isometric views as we associate them with a greater level of roleplay than the behind-the-shoulder camera viewpoints. We're like Pavlov's dogs... Thinking rationally though, there's no reason per se why camera angle should anything to do with gameplay though.

Isometric angle gives you a better, more tactical view.

Compare the two screens. What do you *really* see on the new screen? How aware you are of what's around you? You could be chased by a mob and the only clue would be the angry "let's kill this fucker!" shouts. You need to stop and rotate the camera to see what kinda place you are in. The isometric screens show you everything at once, like a good report, and that's the key difference.

 

[Texas Red]

Re: First Dragon Age screen & info

- The story is dark-much darker than the usual BioWare fare-and influenced by "realistic" modern fantasy like George R. R. Martin's A Game of Thrones.

So will we be able to rape and murder village kids?

Gregor Clegane threw a baby against the wall in front of its mother. Then Gregor proceeded by raping the mother. Or perhaps we will hear tales of incest? How a brother was fucking his twin sister before throwing a child out of the window. And we better be able to romance underaged teens.

Will we have this? And was Bioware influenced only by A Game of Thrones? The other books in the series didnt have an effect?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Isometric angle gives you a better, more tactical view.

This is true and I agree with your stance on the need to pause at every turn requiring a better overview of particular combat situations. However, in a freeform camera possibility, you can pretty much get the same result by positioning the camera in an ideal position, such as isometric so as to perceive the area better. Of course this wouldn't negate the need to constantly pause if it used an underlying RTWP combat system but by then the constant pause would be required to handle the action instead of the camera.

 

[Sarvis]

There's only one way to shut me up, VD. You know what it is. Your choice NOT to use the awesome power you (or others) have.

What are you talking about? The dumbfuck title? If you want to have it removed, just say so.

We can do that?

 

[Elwro]

Re: First Dragon Age screen & info

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. Other than perhaps the fact that it will be a bit more cinematic, I don't really think the dialogue systems in DA and Mass Effect have much in common. *shrug*

Whoa, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Araanor]

This is true and I agree with your stance on the need to pause at every turn requiring a better overview of particular combat situations. However, in a freeform camera possibility, you can pretty much get the same result by positioning the camera in an ideal position, such as isometric so as to perceive the area better. Of course this wouldn't negate the need to constantly pause if it used an underlying RTWP combat system but by then the constant pause would be required to handle the action instead of the camera.

A game with a "freeform camera possibility" would be designed for this possibility, not for isometric view itself, and would thus be gimped in one way or another.

 

[Vault Dweller]

There's only one way to shut me up, VD. You know what it is. Your choice NOT to use the awesome power you (or others) have.

What are you talking about? The dumbfuck title? If you want to have it removed, just say so.

We can do that?

Do what? Ask to have it removed? Sure, you can ask me anything, sugar.

 

[Ladonna]

So, is there an example anywhere of this 'modified' mass effect dialogue anywhere? Its not real time dialogue anymore? If so, what is special about it? It just has the mood responses without it being real time?

 

[suibhne]

Where does everyone get the idea it won't be similar to isometric view (close enough, i.e., with a 3D camera as RP noted)? Word on the street was always that DA would feature different camera angles for combat versus plain old exploration, and that screenshot was plainly not combat.

 

[aweigh]

I hope it does have different camera types. Controllable camera that scales from behind-the-shoulder to isometric would be best.

 

[galsiah]

...there's no reason per se why camera angle should anything to do with gameplay though.

I have to agree with VD here and say that it absolutely does.

In NWN I always used a zoomed out isometric-style view because that gave the most gameplay advantage. Given that combat often came without any other warning, it made sense to keep the view zoomed out at all times.
Sure, I could have zoomed in further and perhaps made things prettier, but what was the point? It only meant restricting awareness of the surrounding environment, and consequential gameplay disadvantage.

It basically amounts to reducing your units' line of sight in exchange for making them prettier. What sane player is going to do that?

I do think a versatile camera angle has a lot to be said for it, but the freedom comes at a price. If you optimize the look of your game to one camera angle (second screenshot), then create gameplay which incentivizes another (first screenshot), you're likely to be putting a load of effort into making things look pretty from a viewing angle hardly anyone uses.

A fixed camera angle means that you can optimize both gameplay and graphics for one perspective - knowing that every player gets the benefit of all your work.


Again, I do like having a versatile camera angle - it just has a downside. I'd have thought that the best places for a versatile camera are where the downside is minimized. E.g. low combat (or similar challenge) scenarios, or games where combat (or similar challenges) are not at all tactical.
Either of those cases removes the gameplay incentive towards any particular angle.

I don't think DA is low combat, and it'd be unfortunate if combat weren't tactical.


To be fair, I guess the main issue with NWN was the first warning of combat depending on camera angle. Given that combat wasn't tactically involved afterwards, the view wouldn't have mattered much - provided some mechanism were used to make enemy detection view-independent.

Whatever the case with DA, I think it'd make sense to make enemy detection view-independent if possible. That way there'd be no need to walk around the entire game in a combat-optimized view.
If you want a versatile viewing angle to give the best of both worlds, the player needs to be able to use it for general viewing without penalizing his party.

If DA is using a fixed angle, or countless other games have tackled this issue already, please excuse my ignorance.

 

[Twinfalls]

The old shots had what seemed to be approximately 10 bajillion NPCs milling about below the bridgey structure, so what's up with that?

 

[Ladonna]

The original scoop that I remember from 04 or thereabouts went on about 'And we will have some battles with entire ARMIES in them!!!1!' This seems to have silently dropped away....until now the game looks and sounds somewhat different, and now Consolation cannot be ruled out apparently, but it was to be a PC only title once upon a time.

At sometime during the 'silent' Age, things changed.

 

[Volourn]

Sound slike ME and JE reverse. Intended to be console only, and now JE is on its way to PC and ME is rumouredly on its way too.

OMGZ! BIO wants to have all their games to have access to as many markets as possible.


L0L0L0L0L0L0LLIPOP

 

[Killzig]

Sound slike ME and JE reverse. Intended to be console only, and now JE is on its way to PC and ME is rumouredly on its way too.

OMGZ! BIO wants to have all their games to have access to as many markets as possible.


L0L0L0L0L0L0LLIPOP

larger customer base? whayyyyyyyyyy!?!?

 

[Dgaider]

Ok, Gaider explained somewhere that they use the nwn engine as an instrument to help in the design of the game. Some kind of interactive storyboard. They have not changed the engine. VD screenshots seems indeed taken from nwn.

Right. We prototype everything in the NWN engine first, to see how it plays without worrying about how pretty the graphics are or how combat runs. That way we don't get that long period where we have a half-built engine and can't test anything.

The original screenshots were from a tech demo that was based on the NWN engine to demonstrate our initial vision for the game. It was never intended for the final game to actually use that engine.

As for the camera angle, I imagine it'll go through several iterations yet. Some of us are rooting for the option to have an overhead camera all the time, so hopefully that will be an option. I do know, however, that there's a lot of players who like the over-the-shoulder and first-person views as they find it more immersive. More power to them, I guess, but the combat will always be from the overhead view regardless.

 

[Catcher]

Ok, Gaider explained somewhere that they use the nwn engine as an instrument to help in the design of the game. Some kind of interactive storyboard. They have not changed the engine. VD screenshots seems indeed taken from nwn.

Pretty close to correct. The images that we refer to as 'screenshots' from E3 2004 were really just a proof of concept demo done in a modified version of the NWN graphics engine. The DA engine was nowhere near complete then so they used what they had at hand. It was never intended to even suggest the final look for DA thus, the images were taken off the official website ~ 6-8 months ago IIRC. The 'storyboarding' took place later and used the NWN tools because, again, they were familiar and easily at hand. They mostly focused on dialogue so the fact that the character models, textures, etc. didn't have the DA look was irrelevant.

There's still no evidence of "consolization" that I've seen. The fact that it's the lead story of the launch of Microsoft's mouthpiece for Windows PC gaming actually seems to speak the opposite. Not definitive proof but then, we won't have that until it's released now will we. :wink:

 

[Excalibur]

Is the engine that you will be using actualy completed on some level now? or are you still trying ideas with the old engine?

 

[suibhne]

More power to them, I guess, but the combat will always be from the overhead view regardless.

I like the cut of your jib, good sir.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

A game with a "freeform camera possibility" would be designed for this possibility, not for isometric view itself, and would thus be gimped in one way or another.

A game with a freeform camera option or a fixed isometric angle can be gimped either way by lousy design of combat situations and specific maps. Look at Fallout's isometric angle which forced you to wiggle about the screen only during your turns to find enemies sniping at you in several combat situations. There, you have a great and tactical isometric view gimped by the inability to scale back and adjust the camera position to give you a global view of things, and the same applies to others such as Arcanum or even Baldur's Gate. On the other hand, NWN's combat is pretty bad but in most cases you can just simulate an isometric perspective with player-driven camera positioning and getting a global overlook of the entire combat situation with no penalties.

 

[suibhne]

I've never uttered another bad word about free cameras since playing Myth and Myth 2 for a few hundred hours.

 

[Dgaider]

Is the engine that you will be using actualy completed on some level now? or are you still trying ideas with the old engine?

Both. The new engine is useable but currently still in the Ugly Grandma stage, so the prototype is being used where it makes sense.