Editorial Five features that irreversibly ruined gaming forever

[Annie Mitsoda]

That list is bullshit. Well-done co-op is a delicious thing that fucking HARDLY EVER APPEARS in fucking games anymore, because it's hard to do right, but what the fuck is wrong with playing a game WITH someone and not always fucking AGAINST them? Jesu Christo.

Also this list is suspect because it doesn't include one huge thing and that is QUICK TIME EVENTS. Sick to goddamn death of them. They were such the revolutionary thing in God of War and then every fucking game and their mom had them. DONE. FINITO. No more arbitrary button presses that punish instead of reward the player's skill at mastering actual game systems, thanks.

The hate about Achievements seems silly to me. They're foozles. They're MacGuffins. They're shiny shit that people like to have around to enjoy the experience. Once they BECOME the experience, that's crap, but they're harmless little fuckers that people enjoy. No, seriously, can you honestly say that you've felt a game is WORSE because they have them, versus, say, something like crap AI or QTE's? Be honest.

Cripes, another "CONSOLES RUINED GAMING!" post. Look. If anything, the advancement of consoles as focused gaming systems helped push PC gaming into new heights. If not for the technological advances of Super Mario, John Carmack would maybe not have been as inspired to recreate the experience on the PC (which was thought impossible at the time). The concept of a PC port was turned down, but the tech went on to make things like Wolfenstein 3D and Commander Keen. Tech from one field pushes others.

The issue I have between consoles and the PC is that they can offer fundamentally different experiences, neither of which I see as being superior or inferior to one another. They're just different, and that is the shit that a lot of publishers don't GET. Many just see the possibility of another SKU, another item on the shelf out there, and either consoles get a shit PC port or the PC gets a shit console port. It's square peg, round hole. Even as consoles and PCs start to equal each other in power, the fundamental issue isn't that - it's the input system you're dealing with, and that it's still far more easy for me to hit up other people via Teamspeak then try to get the damn Party feature working on Live. If I want a more complex input system (or even, I should say, something insanely SIMPLE that merely revolved around the mouse), PC is ideal, and you're not going to get that same experience on console. On the other hand, if you want to play an action game or something that requires quick and concise motion (not the micro scale of an FPS, but like a platformer), console's the better choice, as a controller has more of a tactile feel to it.

This option may earn me the ire of the whole Codex, but the goddamn console isn't a granny-killing enemy in and of itself. You wanna get mad at someone, get mad at the publishers who laser focus on a "mass appeal," get mad at the devs who do shitty ports and the people who pay them to do so. Getting mad at a console for BEING, when consoles have BEEN AROUND since the 19-fucking-70's, seems foolish to me.

And get mad at motherfuckers who pirate games and kill the PC market, because the best way to control product loss is to have a single entity control it, and keep it away from easily-distributable systems. The Demigod incident should tell you that it IS a problem, and it's fucking KILLING PC GAMING. Get mad at pirates. And if you are one, fuck you. You are seriously fucking it up for everybody.

...

...oh, and I don't like it when games give enemies both super-powerful weapons AND AI that can see right through your cover, because there's nothing like making the player feel like a total chump. FOR THE LOSE. Byeeeeeeeee!

 

[BethesdaLove]

See? And Obsidian is full of people like that one. No wonder skyway hates them.

 

[Rhalle]

The hate about Achievements seems silly to me. They're foozles. They're MacGuffins. They're shiny shit that people like to have around to enjoy the experience. Once they BECOME the experience, that's crap, but they're harmless little fuckers that people enjoy. No, seriously, can you honestly say that you've felt a game is WORSE because they have them, versus, say, something like crap AI or QTE's? Be honest.

Half-Life 2: Episode 2 is the object lesson.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

On the other hand, if you want to play an action game or something that requires quick and concise motion (not the micro scale of an FPS, but like a platformer), console's the better choice, as a controller has more of a tactile feel to it.

Though PC's have much greater variety of controllers available. And as you can easily connect your PC with a big TV today, there's no reason why you couldn't play a splitscreen game with friends on a PC. Consoles have nothing on PC:s - well, save for Wii's gimmicky controller, which sucks anyway - they are relics, antiquated technology and design.

This option may earn me the ire of the whole Codex, but the goddamn console isn't a granny-killing enemy in and of itself. You wanna get mad at someone, get mad at the publishers who laser focus on a "mass appeal," get mad at the devs who do shitty ports and the people who pay them to do so.

Consoles have greatly declined from the SNES to PSX era (you might say that so has PC gaming but I haven't yet played even half of the new interesting games released this year, all of them PC exclusives as far as I know, so I would say it's still better). New consoles are boring and they have a small library of boring, bland games. I'm sure somebody want's to say that PSX (or SNES) wasn't any better but that's completely false, it had lots of batshit insane, fun games - so many weird looking games were released that it was hard to keep track of them all. And now, how's PS3? Look wow - it got it's own Halo clone, certainly something to be celebrated!

And the console is something we would really be better off without.

And get mad at motherfuckers who pirate games and kill the PC market, because the best way to control product loss is to have a single entity control it, and keep it away from easily-distributable systems. The Demigod incident should tell you that it IS a problem, and it's fucking KILLING PC GAMING. Get mad at pirates. And if you are one, fuck you. You are seriously fucking it up for everybody.

Maybe, though it is certainly not piracy that started any of the current console trends, and it doesn't explain why console games are such an indistinquishable mess of boredom.

 

[racofer]

And get mad at motherfuckers who pirate games and kill the PC market, because the best way to control product loss is to have a single entity control it, and keep it away from easily-distributable systems. The Demigod incident should tell you that it IS a problem, and it's fucking KILLING PC GAMING. Get mad at pirates. And if you are one, fuck you. You are seriously fucking it up for everybody.

R00fles!

So naive.

See? And Obsidian is full of people like that one. No wonder skyway hates them.

Yep.

 

[Malachi]

Cripes, another "CONSOLES RUINED GAMING!" post.
....
The issue I have between consoles and the PC is that they can offer fundamentally different experiences, neither of which I see as being superior or inferior to one another. They're just different, and that is the shit that a lot of publishers don't GET. Many just see the possibility of another SKU, another item on the shelf out there, and either consoles get a shit PC port or the PC gets a shit console port. It's square peg, round hole. Even as consoles and PCs start to equal each other in power, the fundamental issue isn't that - it's the input system you're dealing with, and that it's still far more easy for me to hit up other people via Teamspeak then try to get the damn Party feature working on Live. If I want a more complex input system (or even, I should say, something insanely SIMPLE that merely revolved around the mouse), PC is ideal, and you're not going to get that same experience on console. On the other hand, if you want to play an action game or something that requires quick and concise motion (not the micro scale of an FPS, but like a platformer), console's the better choice, as a controller has more of a tactile feel to it.

This option may earn me the ire of the whole Codex, but the goddamn console isn't a granny-killing enemy in and of itself. You wanna get mad at someone, get mad at the publishers who laser focus on a "mass appeal," get mad at the devs who do shitty ports and the people who pay them to do so. Getting mad at a console for BEING, when consoles have BEEN AROUND since the 19-fucking-70's, seems foolish to me.

Since I am the only one who really brought up consoles at all, I have to guess that this post is referring to me. Annie, you seem to be a relatively intelligent person. Please re-read my post, and I think you will see that I was not hating *consoles* generally so much as the *X-box* specifically. And I hate the X-box for the same reasons you bring up yourself -- quoting again, for emphasis:

"They're just different, and that is the shit that a lot of publishers don't GET. Many just see the possibility of another SKU, another item on the shelf out there, and either consoles get a shit PC port or the PC gets a shit console port."

The whole point of my original post was that the X-Box, by essentially being a neutered PC, made it *too easy* for publishers and developers to shit out ports for PC. Too often, they are really, really bad ones. Prior to the X-Box, the crossover from one to the other did not happen so much. PC games actually looked and felt like they were designed for PC -- because they were.

You also state, in so many words, that consoles actually benefit PC gaming. On this point, I will venture to disagree. The tendency now is to go after the console market pot o' gold, with the PC game just thrown in. And you can't blame them, because that's where the money is. This has the unfortunate side effect of wrecking the PC market, since now PCs are an *afterthought*, whereas before they were more in their own niche. PC games are now the bastard stepchildren, and it shows.

Piracy is really another matter. I do think those who create deserve compensation for their work. But I am also aware that publishers frequently point to piracy to explain their sales figures, without also taking into account what effect a shitty product might have on those same figures.

 

[Ardanis]

No, seriously, can you honestly say that you've felt a game is WORSE because they have them, versus, say, something like crap AI or QTE's? Be honest.

I can honestly say I feel a game is worse when it has those crappy achievs instead of decent AI. And if it does have a decent AI, meaning there's some free time left to go innovative, then by all means why can't that time be spent onto something more sensible?

 

[HanoverF]

I'd say the Wii is worse, it's just a shitty box for shovelware.

 

[Jasede]

Don't talk the Wii down, it has Megaman 9.

 

[Annie Mitsoda]

POINT THE FIRST: Achievements are basically foozle text attached to naturally tracked game states. No time at all to do, not comparable in difficulty-to-achieve as say, good AI. Hence my point about 'are they really that big of a problem,' as there are others that stand out way further. And people like the shinies. Like I said, they're harmless little macguffins that more people like than hate, and if devs think they're neato, they'll put them in. Also I dunno if MS requires them for 360 games or not. Likely not, but I feel like you'd probably have to explain to the development team why you're not doing them, because you do ONE INTERESTING THING in a game and a dev will gleefully yelp "Achievement!" I don't care who you work for, everybody knows someone who does that.

POINT THE SECOND: OK, decent point about the Xbox. Although I would say it's a side effect of its design rather than a consequence - instead of having development kits that would react in wildly different ways to a PC-run build, you get stuff that hops over more easily. Ports are a function of the PUBLISHING system, not the structure of the console itself. All games are made on PC, regardless of where they end up. Having developed for both consoles and PCs I can tell you that while PCs are easiest to develop for in terms of transferring shit over, Xboxes are the second so. And consoles have their range in the market because they ALL have the same specs - you don't need to worry about your system not running something properly that came out a year and a half later because technology advanced so fast for the PC that you just damn can't keep up.

I'm not a console kiddie, I'm saying they each have their strengths and weaknesses. And while PCs and console have an uneasy connection NOW, what I'm also saying is that the technological advancements of one pushed the development of the other in the past. Their relation now, as justifiably noted, is more awkward. And there are games like HL2 that, when ported, stink.

Honestly, I prefer to play PC games on PC and console games on console, and Never the Twain Shall Meet. But I also understand the value of ports, because (as has been mentioned before) my PC fucking sucks ass, and many times a console version (bastardized as it may be) is the only way for me to play the thing. Also, a good friend of mine was born with crippled hands - he can't handle a controller, so the only way for him to play console games is to make do with the PC ports. They do have their place.

The issue is really one of translation. Once you take something out of a native format and slap it into a new one, you run the risk of fucking it up. I don't think PCs should be an afterthought AT ALL, and the tendency of publishers to frantically run to the consoles - seen as the bigger moneymaker - is bullpuckey right here and I'll never say different... but that falls into a whole long rant I've said before about crap business decisions.

Calling consoles "relics" seems to edit out the fact that they are more user-friendly than PCs in nearly every way (as far as games go), which, LIKE IT OR HATE IT, is what sells. And they do offer gameplay experiences that are lacking in PC games. I don't hold it against the PC that they don't have as many platformers, or action-type titles. I don't blame the PC for not having Katamari Damacy. And me liking those games doesn't restrict my gaming to the console, either. It's not either-or. And frankly, it's a lot easier to play Castle Crashers with some folks that drop by for hangouts than hook up a LAN party to fire up Team Fortress 2. Not dissing the experience of either, just saying - different flavors.

Consoles DO have a problem that the PC doesn't suffer as much for - and that's big-budget games, and the difficulties for getting them finished, and out, and whatnot. The environment for getting games made and on shelves is vastly different from the PSX era, yes, but c'mon - there were LOTS of shit games then, too. We remember the good ones. And comparing a console with a now-complete life cycle of six or eight years to one that's maybe - what - three years down the line? And consider that an SNES game usually clocked a year of production where a modern game (PC included) clocks at about twice that in terms of development time and EXPONENTIALLY more in terms of team size and budget. Indie games will always find their truest home on the PC, and I welcome that, but I do appreciate that there are platforms for homebrew console stuff like WiiWare, Live, and PSN. They're in their infancy and have a fuckload of problems, but I do hope they improve.

But the issues you're pointing out as problems with consoles are OVERALL GAME DEVELOPMENT ISSUES. I don't see it as exclusive to either consoles or PC because I've seen that shit happen with BOTH.

PIRACY - yeah, you do see publishers howling about it when they get crap sales figures. Which I think is all the more irritating, because it's a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation - that shit IS a problem, but when you get certain people screaming about it or putting really draconian measures out there, you hurt the people who respect you and the people who don't STILL won't give a shit. I wouldn't make a repeated point about it, though, if I didn't genuninely know from experience and repeated study that it IS a huge problem. Vogel's figures, World of Goo - that could be dev hearsay, sure. But when you have a problem like 100,000 pirates swarming Demigod servers when the game sold maybe a THIRD of that in legitimate copies - that's some shit right there, some undeniable badness.

And when it comes down to it, what's an ACCEPTABLE level of piracy? What should one really expect? Less and less developers can do anything but sign with publishers, because a contract there guarantees them that they won't go out of business if things don't go well. I'm not talking as much about publishers here - the issue is that it always comes back to the devs, and even if you don't like a publisher and thus swipe their shit, it always comes back to hurt the developer. If I had a solution I'd offer it to you freely - but I don't. I just got my experience, and my pointing out that it IS a problem. I said before that it's easy to shit on someone when they're just words on the Internet, and it sort of applies when it's a game on a site - it's not a box you hide under your coat as you slip out of a store, it's just data - but that data is the same, in a box or not, and it's something someone worked hard to make. It IS theft, as uncomfortable as we are with the idea and as easy as it is to dismiss. In college, I had some cracked games. But when I thought about it more, and had friends who were developers, I actually went and bought the titles. Too little too late, probably, but it got to me.

And I represent ME, not Obsidian. Helloooo, haven't worked there since October, wasn't hired because of my opinions on internet forums.

 

[Annie Mitsoda]

ALSO, and here's a follow-up: there's going to be some shit out there, and follow me here, that's not FOR you. It's not meant for your consumption, you're not the target audience, and that's okay. I'm not talking shitty games, I'm not talking shovelware - I'm talking titles that we dislike but can recognize appeal to a different set. I think Gran Turismo is boring as shit - but it's not for me. I'd have to be a retard to whine that I don't like a racing game because IT IS WHAT IT IS. I hate the shit out Madden but as a football game I guess it's well-designed. Meh.

What I dislike is the lack of diversity in games, and so much that's a function of 1) needing a publisher to give you a contract so you can afford to do ANYTHING, and 2) not getting any publisher interested unless it looks like something that looks like something else that sold real well. This is true for every platform, PC or console. It's a business, they want a return on their money. And so you get sequelitis, you get same-looking games, you get a billion copycats for any fortunate risk. What I wish is that you had a situation where publishers were willing to put forth smaller budgets to foment innovation, and take more risks on smaller and quirkier projects - instead of the current business model where they pile millions into a single project and go completely to shit if that aforementioned project doesn't sell a hojillion copies. And that's Captain Retardo.

 

[racofer]

blah blah blah

Damn, it feels so good to know a simple one liner made someone waste so much time thinking and writing all that shit up for nothing.

Also, you're still repeating yourself Annie, same as your first post on this page, you went on circles and got nowhere.

 

[Silellak]

See? And Obsidian is full of people like that one. No wonder skyway hates them.

Yeah, I fucking hate people who have reasonable opinions balanced by years of actual experience in the gaming industry.

I much prefer to listen to the opinion of a bunch of whiny, naive gamers bitching about the Big Bad Consoles raping their precious hobby.

blah blah blah

Damn, it feels so good to know a simple one liner made someone waste so much time thinking and writing all that shit up for nothing.

Also, you're still repeating yourself Annie, same as your first post on this page, you went on circles and got nowhere.

Yet, interestingly, her posts are far more entertaining to read than anything you've ever shat out on these forums. Shocking, that.

 

[racofer]

Yeah, I fucking hate people who have reasonable opinions balanced by years of actual experience in the gaming industry.

Todd Howard tells the truth then, by your preference. Go suck his fat rich cock then and swallow his load, you deserve it.

Yet, interestingly, her posts are far more entertaining to read than anything you've ever shat out on these forums. Shocking, that.

Lol the irony.

 

[Silellak]

Yeah, I fucking hate people who have reasonable opinions balanced by years of actual experience in the gaming industry.

Todd Howard tells the truth then, by your preference. Go suck his fat rich cock then and swallow his load, you deserve it.

Yet, interestingly, her posts are far more entertaining to read than anything you've ever shat out on these forums. Shocking, that.

Lol the irony.

Yeah, Todd and Annie are totally the exact same person, and this comparison is completely valid.

Assuming, of course, you can find me quotes where Annie has blatantly lied about the games she's developing. Right?

 

[racofer]

Yeah, Todd and Annie are totally the exact same person, and this comparison is completely valid.

Yeah, I fucking hate people who have reasonable opinions balanced by years of actual experience in the gaming industry.

Self rape much?

R00fles!

 

[Silellak]

Yeah, Todd and Annie are totally the exact same person, and this comparison is completely valid.

Yeah, I fucking hate people who have reasonable opinions balanced by years of actual experience in the gaming industry.

Self rape much?

R00fles!

If Howard posted reasonable shit like Annie does, I'd say the same thing about him. However, the only things I've heard come out of his mouth are lies and hype about his own games. I tend to ignore the opinions of anyone who has proven to be a flat-out liar, which sort of dismisses the whole "reasonable" part of "reasonable opinions".

 

[racofer]

Allow me to repeat the quote, so you might understand the stupidity of what you said:

Yeah, I fucking hate people who have reasonable opinions balanced by years of actual experience in the gaming industry.

You generalized the entire game developing "community", therefore including people like Todd.

R00fles!

 

[Silellak]

Allow me to repeat the quote, so you might understand the stupidity of what you said:

Yeah, I fucking hate people who have reasonable opinions balanced by years of actual experience in the gaming industry.

You generalized the entire game developing "community", therefore including people like Todd.

R00fles!

If you say so, champ.

 

[racofer]

Actually, you did, pal.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

Calling consoles "relics" seems to edit out the fact that they are more user-friendly than PCs in nearly every way (as far as games go), which, LIKE IT OR HATE IT, is what sells.

My view is that you could easily replace a console with a PC, losing nothing in the process while gaining a lot in terms of better technology, usability etc. (I'll try to make some sense even while it's very late.) Now, maybe consoles are cheaper, easier to use etc. but none of that make them better gaming or general purpose entertainment systems. Of course, my view doesn't make them go away but a console is still a dated concept.

And they do offer gameplay experiences that are lacking in PC games. I don't hold it against the PC that they don't have as many platformers, or action-type titles.

My point is that there's no reason for those genres being console-exclusive, or if there was no consoles, there shouldn't be any reason why games like them wouldn't be made.

Consoles DO have a problem that the PC doesn't suffer as much for - and that's big-budget games, and the difficulties for getting them finished, and out, and whatnot. The environment for getting games made and on shelves is vastly different from the PSX era, yes, but c'mon - there were LOTS of shit games then, too. We remember the good ones.

There were much more games total back then, and somehow in that sea of games, there was a whole bunch of good ones (and even some of the bad or mediocre ones were much more memorable and imaginative than the bland, safe products of today). We can also compare those times to the already closed cycles of PS2, Gamecube and Xbox. Okay, I'm not saying anything about PS2 because I never had one, but Xbox was pretty horrible and so was Gamecube, for the entirety of their lifespans, with perhaps ten or less interesting games a console. Whatever the reason (probably what you said), consoles are in decline.

But the issues you're pointing out as problems with consoles are OVERALL GAME DEVELOPMENT ISSUES. I don't see it as exclusive to either consoles or PC because I've seen that shit happen with BOTH.

I'm not sure to whom are you talking now, but I don't think today's PC games are even near the level of bleakness of the console library.

And when it comes down to it, what's an ACCEPTABLE level of piracy? What should one really expect?

One should probably expect the worst. There's not much that motivates people to buy something they can easily obtain for free.

I'm still sure that my piracy solution is perfect - make the games so big that downloading them takes forever even on the fastest connection. Just fill the discs with all kinds of useless rubbish that takes space, but what the game doesn't work without.

 

[Annie Mitsoda]

Demno - You do have some good points, but I think it does come down to a matter of preference, and at that we're at a stalemate. I think the PS2 had an awesome selection of games: Persona 3[/] and 4, for example, and shit while I'm at it the entire Shin Megami Tensei line - and that's purely RPGs. Which are not necessarily better on console. Also I liked the Katamari Damacy series, Ratchet & Clank, Ico, Amplitude, I could keep going but I think I've got a point here. It's about what you want and how you want it, and for many people who don't have the money to follow mainstream PC gaming AND/OR don't have a taste for more indie games, consoles are like - hm. Following a mainstream comic book series vs. indie labels, maybe. There's some horrible mainstream shit, and some real beauties as well. It's down to personal preference. And fundamentally, I think that's what the choice is about - which system works best for the experience you want to create. You CAN get a gamepad for a computer, yeah, but it's not the same kind of flavor.

And easy, kids, if you disagree with me it's entirely your call, I'm not gonna pretend like I know everything about gaming and the industry there is to know. I have my 4+ years of experience, and my life of being a gamer and knowing other devs and gamers, and that's me. Call me on my shit, yes, but remember when I do the same that it's all in fun. :twisted:

And I met Todd Howard. He's totally shorter than me. That made me feel pretty awesome in a very odd way.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Allow me to repeat the quote, so you might understand the stupidity of what you said:

Yeah, I fucking hate people who have reasonable opinions balanced by years of actual experience in the gaming industry.

You generalized the entire game developing "community", therefore including people like Todd.

R00fles!

Sorry Racofer, but I for one would LOVE the opportunity to hear from and grill Todd Howard over your boring, irrelevant shite anyday

 

[racofer]

Allow me to repeat the quote, so you might understand the stupidity of what you said:

Yeah, I fucking hate people who have reasonable opinions balanced by years of actual experience in the gaming industry.

You generalized the entire game developing "community", therefore including people like Todd.

R00fles!

Sorry Racofer, but I for one would LOVE the opportunity to hear from and grill Todd Howard

Ha!
Haha......hahahaha!

I bet it would be a very immershunvee dialog, full of bloom and whistles.

 

[The Ticktockman]

Allow me to repeat the quote, so you might understand the stupidity of what you said:

Yeah, I fucking hate people who have reasonable opinions balanced by years of actual experience in the gaming industry.

You generalized the entire game developing "community", therefore including people like Todd.

R00fles!

I'm pretty sure he was saying that developers who have years of experience AND reasonable opinions are worth listening to. He never made the claim that all devs are included in that category.

I think it's cute when people don't understand basic logic.