For Legend of Grimrock fans: Black Crypt

[Marquess Cornwallis]

Black Crypt is an obscure game??? Man, Black Crypt is a LEGENDARY game!!!

To be fair, that is probably (to a degree) a Czech/Slovak thing, especially due to how the game was championed (along with DM) by the Excalibur (and later Score) magazine as a paragon of dungeon crawling design throughout the early 1990s. I remember that at that time even people who never owned an Amiga generally knew about the game and assumed it was great.

 

[Wolfus]

That's possible, but it cannot change fact that BC is great game. I really cannot remember any better crawler from that time.

 

[octavius]

That's possible, but it cannot change fact that BC is great game. I really cannot remember any better crawler from that time.

Ultima Underworld was released the same year. Black Crypt just rehashed the formula that DM started 5 years earlier, while UU took real time crawlers to a whole new level, with real 3D and physics, interaction with NPCs (EOB had some, but I don't think BC had) and skills.

 

[Mortmal]

Yes but alas ultima underwolrd required a computer most people couldnt afford by then. Cant really compare them, black crypt was the pinnacle of DM clones , ultima underword birth another genre, it was phenomenal , completely broke the mold, it was almost a virtual reality game, the only thing it was missing was the virtual helmet . i remember black crypt scoring around 19/20 in the best magazines while UU litterally had perfect 20.

 

[Wolfus]

Just my own opinion:
UU was "perfect" and magazines masturbated over it just because it was 3D game in 2D era... BC is still enjoyable. UU has lousy controls and combat (now) and I cannot force myself to play it.

 

[Mortmal]

Yes but it was the very first to do that, and well throwing a stone and seeing it affected by gravity , falling and rolling down that was impressive .

 

[Whisper]

Good game.

 

[SCO]

Bah, UU is still boss. If people play Daggerfall and morrowind they will like UU.

Causes headaches though

 

[octavius]

I miss those days when computer games were made by geeks for geeks:

 

[made]

So Stabwound, how's your playthrough coming along?

 

[octavius]

I just played the first level. The game is slicker and more fun than I remember. Fortunately I remember very little of the game itself, so it's almost like playing it for the first time. Having to click on the character portraits instead of the weapons to attack will take some getting used to, though.
The spell system is also rather cumbersome, having to memorize spells and only having access to max five spells at a time. It adds an unnecessary level of micromanagement. The syllables/rune system of other, similar games is quicker.

 

[octavius]

Damned, I hate how hunger is treated in this game.
Have to restart the game, since two of my guys died from hunger when dancing with the Ogre, and the the two others shortly after.

EDIT: And of course the Create Food spell was found in the chamber which the Ogre's key gave access to...

 

[octavius]

The more I play, the more Black Crypt fails in comparison with Dungeon Master and Chaos Strikes Back. CSB was brutal, but it was never frustrating. Black Crypt is just fucking annoying when thieves who can teleport and turn invisible at will steals your items and teleport away before you can kill them. The gigglers in Dungeon Master and CSB were much more fun - that rage inducing giggle they make and then the little assholes run away while you try to fry them with fireballs. The thieves in Black Crypt just makes me go "is this really supposed to be fun?".

Still, it's more fun to replay than Eye of the Beholder and Abandoned Places was.

Weird how the very first game in this genre did just about everything right, and later games (except CSB) failed in comparison. Sure, later games had more varied dungeon graphics, NPCs and outdoor enviromens, but the basic UI and spell system (simple and elegant), combat system (different attack modes for various weapons, and using doors and traps against enemies), wounds system, immersion/atmosphere and pure gameplay was never improved. Even the sound effects were not improved.

 

[hrose]

Well, what about the Avernum(s) then?

I don't think realtime = bad. But the lack of choice is. The problem is that we got just one type of gameplay nowadays.

 

[octavius]

Since there is little discussion about this game on the Codex (except for Blackadder mentioning it like 500 times) or on the internet in general, I though I'd jot down some more of my impressions about Black Crypt.

Stamina seems to be bugged. My Druid with 7 STR and medium armour doesn't get tired, but all the other guys with 20+ STR (Fighter and Cleric) or 9 STR and light armour (Magic User) keep getting tired. All have 20 CON, except for the Cleric who has 17 CON. Replenishing Stamina seems to take ages, while HP recovery takes a few seconds.
The Druid is also the character with the most Hit Points, so I'm starting to wonder if he's supposed to be up front?

Melee characters can only attack enemies right in front of them. No message about not reaching monsters in front of the other melee character, just missing swings.

Unlike Dungeon Master and CSB, pits and stairs don't match up properly, which would have been annoying if mapping manually. The automap makes up for it, though.

There is no way to get detailed information about items, which is annoying. Dungeon Master and CBS has been "dissected" long time ago, but for Black Crypt the only item list I could find was from a guy who made his list based on in game use of weapons.

Overall the game feels less like a "living dungeon" than DM and CBS. In those games the dungeon was dark (as it bloody well should be) and the monsters played by the same rules as the party. In Black Crypt you can suddenly find that you are stripped of weapons for no logical reason, that your spells (or any magic item, for that matter) don't work (monsters' spells work, though) and invisible thieves can apparantly teleport from some other dimension since you never "bump into" them.
And spells don't seem to affect anything but monsters. In DM and CBS a Fireball could destroy wooden doors, for example.

Combat is also more of a click fest than it was in DM and CSB. DM and CSB actually had quite slow combat for a real time game, and you had some time to think, while in BC both monsters and the party attack with a higher frequency.

All in all Black Crypt is still a fun game, but I honestly can't understand why anyone would think it's better than Dungeon Master. The only thing I can think of that is better is that is has an automap, which was something I missed in DM (but not in CSB).

 

[octavius]

Looks like the designers of Black Crypt was not too impressed with Eye of the Beholder. Or is it just a coindidence that one of Medusa's victimes is named Redloheb the Dull?

BTW, regarding the item list mentioned above, the guy writing it was wrong about the Ring of Health. What it does is make the wearer immune to Disease. Very useful when fighting the spiders on lvl 10 or 11.

 

[made]

You cry a lot about them thieves; I thought it was a neat idea that kept me on my toes on that level. Basically you need to be fast to kill them or live with using inferior replacement weapons. Cheap? Maybe. But it worked. AFAIR they hang out in the vault where they stash your items in between raids.

"All in all Black Crypt is still a fun game, but I honestly can't understand why anyone would think it's better than Dungeon Master"
I liked DM for its atmosphere, or immersion if you will; I enjoyed BC more for its puzzles and level design.

 

[octavius]

"All in all Black Crypt is still a fun game, but I honestly can't understand why anyone would think it's better than Dungeon Master"
I liked DM for its atmosphere, or immersion if you will; I enjoyed BC more for its puzzles and level design.

BC may have good individual levels (lvl 10 or 11 with the the four stairs down to the four lieutenants was boring, though), but there is hardly any connection between the levels. I loved the overall dungeon design in DM and CSB: the central staircase in DM and the fact that you could fall ten levels down from one of the upper levels in CSB.

DM and CSB feels more "realistic" - fireballs look like real fireballs and they travel until they hit something. The fireballs in BC look like some cheap fireworks that explode right before your eyes, and has no "presence" in the dungeon - it is just some pretty looking effect.

 

[made]

DM and CSB feels more "realistic" - fireballs look like real fireballs and they travel until they hit something. The fireballs in BC look like some cheap fireworks that explode right before your eyes, and has no "presence" in the fungeon - it is just some pretty looking effect.

I file that stuff under immersion. Dunno if chasing down your own fireballs because they move slower than the party can be called "realistic".

As for level design, BC is split into several themed segments consisting of multiple levels that you travel back and forth in before you progress into the next segment - you have the first two levels with the ogre, then the next 3 with the thieves and invisible crawlers (fucking intense btw), then the next 4, etc. I guess you could argue that makes the game more linear overall.

 

[octavius]

DM and CSB feels more "realistic" - fireballs look like real fireballs and they travel until they hit something. The fireballs in BC look like some cheap fireworks that explode right before your eyes, and has no "presence" in the fungeon - it is just some pretty looking effect.

I file that stuff under immersion. Dunno if chasing down your own fireballs because they move slower than the party can be called "realistic".

Heh, had forgotten about that. I guess they just calibrated things wrongly. Or they needed to keep the speed of missiles down for other reasons.

Anyway, I'm nearing the end of Black Crypt now. Things went markedly smoother once I aquired the Stone Mace, which does 10 times more damage than any other weapon I had found at that point.
The big Ram Demon, who is supposed to be Esteroth's most powerful lieutenant went down in two swings. I don't really need to use magic spells or missile weapons any longer.

I have only the water lord left now. I had two Helms of Triton and one Ring of Waterbreathing, and had hoped to find an additional water breathing item before taking the plunge under water, and I cheered when the last place I had left to explore before entering the water lord's domain I found a second Ring of Waterbreathing. But either it's not working, or the first one has expired, 'cause only one of them works. I've seen some other items that can be worn that have had their magic effect expire. I think it's the only game in which I've seen such behaviour.

Oh well, according to the walkthrough there is supposed to be yet another Ring of Waterbreathing under water, so I guess one of my character will have to die before I find it.

Incidentally the Medusa is the only part of the game I can remember from my first playthrough. Weird that I should forget so much of the game, but no wonder it was the Meduaa I remembered, since on my current playthrough I kept calling her "fucking cunt!".

 

[Whisper]

In addition to Black crypt, i advise Crystal dragon, also great RPG on amiga.

 

[octavius]

In addition to Black crypt, i advise Crystal dragon, also great RPG on amiga.

I thought it looked a bit dull, but it's on my play list.

Another Amiga real time blobber, and supposedly one of the last big games for Amiga was Evil's Doom from 1996. It's not on Mobygames, though. Anyone play it?

 

[Crooked Bee]

Another Amiga real time blobber, and supposedly one of the last big games for Amiga was Evil's Doom from 1996. It's not on Mobygames, though. Anyone play it?

Looks pretty cool. Added on my to-play list.

 

[made]

Yea it looks great and sounds even better, but I never got to the actual dungeon part. Game was plagued by various bugs and issues but there's been a massive community effort to patch and update it.
Wolfus is the resident ED expert; maybe he could weigh in on whether there are still any bugs left. He did complete the game afaik. The version they have on on DJOG seems to run nicely out of the box at least.

 

[octavius]

And so, yet another dark lord hiding in the deepest bowels of a dungeon, from which he is bent on world domination, bites the dust.
When will they ever learn?