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GameDesign: Weapon skills synergies

Vault Dweller

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Another question for you guys. Weapon skills synergies. Should high weapon skills give bonuses to low skills. Is it reasonable to expect your sword-specializing fighter not to suck with a dagger? axe? spear? What are the pros and cons in your opinions?

For those who dig that synergy things, here is an example:
Sword skill 50, Dagger skill 10. The higher skill gives a bonus to the low skill, which is 40% of the difference: (50-10)*0.4=16. So, when you increase Sword skill to 50, that automatically bumps up Dagger skill to 26. The bonus isn't added to the skill permanently, and recalculated if skills change. So, if you decide to add 10 points to Dagger, it wouldn't be increased to 36, but to 20+(50-20)*0.4=32.

Any thoughts?
 

Deathy

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First thing that I noticed was the use of the word "synergy". Please, never use that word again. I have a hard time taking anyone who uses it seriously, because of the corporate buzzword undertones that it has.

Second thing that hit me is that it would confuse the player greatly. "I put 10 points into this skill, why the hell did I only get 6? Dumbass game!" In order to get around that, you'd need to have the unadjusted skill level displayed also.

Why just leave it at weapons skill. Surely the doctor skill is related to first aid skills, and even science. Science is related to repair, repair is related to lockpicking, pickpocketing is related to stealth....
Could turn into a complicated mess of adjustments, there.

Other than that, it seems that this idea could work, just as long as you balance it so that there aren't any jack-of-all-trades skills that you could bump up and become good at everything.
 

Whipporowill

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Weapon synergies are a pretty nifty addition, as long as the're reasonable connection between the different weapon types. I wouldn't say there's too many different weapon skills it can be applied to though - which makes it sort of unnecessary to dwell on too much.

1h Bladed are very different from 2h Bladed but not as different as Polearms (piercing) and Polearms (cutting) . Synergies for different types of firearms sounds a lot more logical than a synergy between Bow and Crossbow, or between different Thrown Weapons - daggers don't compare to axes.

What kind of weapon skills are you planning to run with VD? How specialized or unspecialized are they?
 
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Bah, synergy went out with merger mania. It's an acceptable word again.

I think you've got it backwards as far as giving you less points when you raise skills that already got a bonus. Synergy should actually make it easier to raise related skills, not harder. You're basically spending time to generalize and extend your existing expertise into a related field. Sort of like how a microbiologist would probably have an easier time picking up medicine than a mechanic. Having some generalized bonuses that represent your common knowledge in a given field even in areas you're not as skilled in (like feints, movement, etc. for combat) would be nice, though.
 

Sol Invictus

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Deathy said:
First thing that I noticed was the use of the word "synergy". Please, never use that word again. I have a hard time taking anyone who uses it seriously, because of the corporate buzzword undertones that it has.
So it seems that Part 1 of our agenda is to reengineer the English language to make it distinct from 'corporate buzzwords', thus disallowing the use of any words used in advertisements and slogans, ever due to their 'corporate buzzword undertones', because obviously people can't tell the difference between the word 'synergy' inspite of its correct usage and an advertisement that reads 'Buy McDonalds'.

Part 2 of our agenda is to please your disconcerted demeanor especially when it comes to the use of words seen in advertisements, so much so that the entire verbal directory needs to be relegated to the use of draconian terms that shouldn't see the light of day due to the preexistence of more useful words, which are unfortunately used as corporate buzzwords.

Second thing that hit me is that it would confuse the player greatly. "I put 10 points into this skill, why the hell did I only get 6? Dumbass game!" In order to get around that, you'd need to have the unadjusted skill level displayed also.
Part 3 of our agenda is to dumb down the content of our games and their mechanics to make it so that the lowest common denominator does not have to go through the trouble of reading a page of the manual pertaining to the subject.

Why just leave it at weapons skill. Surely the doctor skill is related to first aid skills, and even science. Science is related to repair, repair is related to lockpicking, pickpocketing is related to stealth....

Could turn into a complicated mess of adjustments, there.
Part 4 of our agenda is to synergize unrelated skills for no particular reason whatsoever to prove your point.

Other than that, it seems that this idea could work, just as long as you balance it so that there aren't any jack-of-all-trades skills that you could bump up and become good at everything.
Part 5 of our agenda is to contradict all the previous parts.
 

Jedi359

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I like the idea of synergies, but the bonus should only be based on the power of the first skill. Basing it on the difference means it's not viable to increase the lesser skill. Just increase the first skill.
 

Stark

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I've one question:

following your logic, if improving my sword skill improves my dagger skill indirectly, does improving my dagger skill improves sword skill?

If so, does the benefit/synergy works in the same beneficial manner? Or a dagger specialized guy gain marginally less benefit when using sword?

If the benefits only work one way, or if the benefits/synergy works better with one type of weapon over another, then you have one hell of a balancing problem on your hand.
 

Sol Invictus

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It'd definitely introduce a balancing problem of some sort (name something that doesn't) but I'd love to see it implemented.
 

Stark

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I'm of the opinion that this skill synergy concept, while novel, present alot of balancing hell to the developer. Beta testers (and eventually gamers) are bound to argue with you on some of the numerical values used. Or, someone will argue why it works for some skills but not others. I can almost imagine someone arguing why sword skill improves dagger skill but lockpick skill does not improve disable trap skill, etc.

Why not stick to the simplistic solution of independant skill progression, and spend the development time polishing other aspects of the game?
 

Sarvis

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After giving it some though, I kind of like the idea.

Assuming, of course, that combat ability is determined solely by weapon skill rather than having another outside factor such as thac0 or BAB.)

40% sounds like too much for dagger compared to sword though. In fact, I would probably make the synergy bonus vary based on how close the weapon styles are to each other. For instance a sword might give a 25% synergy bonus to dagger, but a 35% bonus to one handed axes.
 

Sol Invictus

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Synergies would be a good reason to level up various skills rather than simply focusing on a single one. It'd give you a lot of leeway in determining your choice of weapons and it would make it so that finding that brand new +5 Axe of Destroying worthwhile in comparison to your +3 Sword of Gimp.

You are a warrior, after all. You're supposed to be good at arms. Versatility is king.
 

Surlent

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I think this sounds like the way of the future. Sure you need more polish with this kind of system but the devs gotta try something new or we end up getting rehashed trash.

Like Rex said, Versatility is king. It makes sense a high level swordmaster gets some bonus to handling daggers. Think about it. Who specializes in daggers when you got greatswords and axes available? This way it would automatically balance the character and allow it to use other weapons also.

It really annoyes when you have specialized in one particular profession and then find something special item which you can't use. This system would at least allow you to take some advantage of it and break the boundaries of fundamental class development seen in DnD.

Making overall good jack of all weapons fighter could be easier also.

I don't consider this to be obstacle for roleplaying either since it doesn't affect the game plot and you can still specialize in weapons&spells you choose.
 

Deathy

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Part 3 of our agenda is to dumb down the content of our games and their mechanics to make it so that the lowest common denominator does not have to go through the trouble of reading a page of the manual pertaining to the subject.
Not entirely pertinent to this topic, however, since you brought it up, having a manual isn't an excuse for an obtuse and difficult to understand user interface.
My point had to do with the user interface design issues that this feature may bring in.
Your reply was to call people who may be confused by this feature the lowest common denominator. While that is probably true, I don't see how providing extra information in the interface can be percieved as dumbing it down in any fashion. Why add this information? Because the player may be interested in knowing how much of an effect putting x points into the skill may have.
Part 4 of our agenda is to synergize unrelated skills for no particular reason whatsoever to prove your point.
First of all, this makes no sense. Could you clarify for me, as far as I can tell, you're saying something about the example skills I chose are unrelated. I disagree.
Most skills are related in some way or another, example being science, the study of how the universe works, would be related to repair in that, if you know how something works, you're a lot better able to repair any damage that it may have. I'm not going to expand on this or any of the other skills because it would be a waste of your time. However, my point was to prove that most skills were related to each other, and therefore, if you synergise one type of skill, shoudln't you do it for the whole skillset, for consistencies sake?

Part 5 of our agenda is to contradict all the previous parts.
That really isn't true. I never implied that it was a bad idea, and with the jack of all trades point, I was attempting to show that there are skills that are too general, and that if you were to include them, you'd run into balancing problems in that one skill could turn into a uber-skill, and raise everything else in addition to having uses of its own.
A fine example is a Science skill. Considering that science would affect a large number of possible skills (doctor, repair, demolitions, outdoorsman...), and in addition, have uses on its own, it would definitely be a skill that has too many uses for a balance standpoint.
 

Section8

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I put forth the motion that we bring in some contractors to reevaluate, vis-a-vis the situation with weaponry in the workplace. It's my understanding that rather than developing synergies, we should be working more toward encompassing skillsets.

Bollocks, I really couldn't be assed trying to continue in corporate speak.

I think the idea of skill synergies is an interesting concept. It does make quite a bit of sense, especially within the example provided, but my opinion is that there might be other ways to get the desired results in a slightly more elegant manner. (as far as the player is concerned)

This is more or less a rambling train of thought, but firstly, consider the fundamental similarities and differences between your skills with regard to synergies. For the following, I'm keeping it simple in comparing a longsword to a dagger.

Similarities:

Appearance wise, both are similar, they're edged weapons, and both are wielded with the aim of slashing or thrusting at one's opponent.

Differences:

When you get right down to it, the use of a dagger and the use of a sword vary considerably. A sword primarily requires it's wielder to use their balance and strength to inflict high impact blows, in addition to offering a large surface with which to deflect attacks.

A dagger however, requires perception, patience and agility, with it's wielder opting for swift thrusts to vulnerable areas when they become exposed, and the trade off defensively is that the wielder is much more mobile due to the lighter and less cumbersome form of a dagger.

Now this isn't intended to debunk the idea of synergy, but to reinforce careful consideration of Why weapon skill A would feasibly be related to weapon skill B. Now consider a rapier and the similarities to a dagger. Both are wielded in a similar fashion, with a few differences according to their defensive use.

None of this is anything particularly new or interesting, but it leads into the idea of classification.

We could classify the above three weapons (longsword, dagger, rapier) according to their predominant mode of striking. Slash for longsword, Thrust for the other two. But this doesn't entirely fit. A dagger can be used to slash, but it still follows the same principles as a dagger used to thrust. It relies on speed and the ability to exploit vulnerable openings.

And so a pattern begins to emerge. The physical traits of the character play a large role in the ability to effectively wield the specific weapons. Strength and balance greatly aids the wielder of larger weapons, while speed and accuracy/perception favour the wielder of lighter weapons. Without delving into further categorising just yet, we can institute our first encompassing stat - Governing Attributes.

This concept is widely implemented in just about every RPG known to man, but has little bearing on synergy. Yet.

Morrowind's implementation of governing attributes brings me closer to the point I'm trying to make eventually. All skills in Morrowind have a single governing attribute. As skills improve, the attributes are marked as improving also. Likewise, as a governing attribute improves, so do all the skills that lie below it in the hierarchy. In this way, we have a simple implementation of synergy, although on a macro scale.

To better abstract this inheritance, I find it better to consider an increase in strength not as an increase in strength-based skills, but an improved disposition/suitability to using strength-based skills, which results in a performance increase.

By considering this abstraction, we can delve back into synergies, by introducing another age old concept of skill sets. Let's start breaking down our categorisation, and and some more specific weapons.

Strength based weapons: Longsword, Mace, Handaxe, Claymore, Archmace, Battleaxe.
Agility based weapons: Rapier, Dagger, Kama, Fist

With the addition of two handed weapons, we broaden our scope. While they require similar physical characteristics, the skill of wielding them as compared to one-handers once again quite different, but the physical characteristics are similar.

So as promised, we break it down.

  • Strength
    • Heavy Weapons
      • Claymore
      • Archmace
      • Battleaxe
    • Medium Weapons
      • Longsword
      • Mace
      • Handaxe
  • Agility
    • Light Weapons
      • Rapier
      • Dagger
      • Kama

...and through a simple method of inheritance, all skills encompassed within a skill set receive synergy bonuses, it's just a question of working out weighting and influences. Let's just say for example, everytime you invest a single point into a skill, half goes into the skill itself, and the other half goes into into the parent skill set, for a net gain of 1 on the skill level, and 0.5 across the other encompassed skills. On top of that, the governing attribute gets a bit of a kick, which can improve multiple skill sets, and their child skills.

That's my two cents, and I feel it kind of streamlines the original synergy concept, and eliminates any skill regression due to recalculation of synergy bonuses. It's all pretty straightforward at this level, but I'm sure you could implement multiple inheritances on all levels, with the biggest hurdle being effectively conveying said multiple inheritances to the player in a straightforward manner.
 

Eclecticist

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Synergy bonuses are great for any games aspiring to have serious realistic combat. It is true for real life, and therefore should be true in realistic combat.

The best approach in my humble opinion would be to separate the skills even further, so that there is a technique for "handling (one-handed)," as well as specific weapon training skills, i.e. "technique (longsword)". The "handling" skill would be the synergetic skill, whilst the technique should remain separate as it holds the art of the weapon, the tricks to causing more damage and the other weapon-specific skills involved.
 

Vault Dweller

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Deathy said:
In order to get around that, you'd need to have the unadjusted skill level displayed also.
Not a problem.

Walks with the Snails said:
I think you've got it backwards as far as giving you less points when you raise skills that already got a bonus. Synergy should actually make it easier to raise related skills, not harder.
The synergy is not there to make it easier, it's to make underdeveloped and rare/never used weapon skills somewhat useful. If you are actually investing in a skill, it's a different matter.

Jedi359 said:
I like the idea of synergies, but the bonus should only be based on the power of the first skill. Basing it on the difference means it's not viable to increase the lesser skill. Just increase the first skill.
It's viable to increase the lesser skill if you want to be good at it, and get high level skill bonuses. Overall, if you are planning to have 2-3 weapons skills (there are reasons to do that), you shouldn't care about synergies. If you are fine with one weapon, but want to be able to use other weapons occasionally, that's what synergies are for.

Stark said:
following your logic, if improving my sword skill improves my dagger skill indirectly, does improving my dagger skill improves sword skill?
Right now the highest weapon skill gives bonuses to the lower skills. The bonuses are different depending on the weapons (i.e. sword gives a better bonus to dagger, but a minor bonus to spear).

If so, does the benefit/synergy works in the same beneficial manner? Or a dagger specialized guy gain marginally less benefit when using sword?
Same. Sword-Dagger gives 40% of the difference regardless of which one is the highest.

Why not stick to the simplistic solution of independant skill progression, and spend the development time polishing other aspects of the game?
I'm considering that, that's why I posted a question to see what people think of such a concept.

Exitium said:
It'd definitely introduce a balancing problem of some sort (name something that doesn't) but I'd love to see it implemented.
The weapons are balanced, the synergies are not. It's more of a "makes sense" thingy. A spear is a more unique weapon in terms of wielding. It gives less bonuses, but it has other "built-in" qualities (all weapons do though).

Sarvis said:
40% sounds like too much for dagger compared to sword though. In fact, I would probably make the synergy bonus vary based on how close the weapon styles are to each other. For instance a sword might give a 25% synergy bonus to dagger, but a 35% bonus to one handed axes
The bonuses are different for different skills, as for the numbers, they are not final. Also, keep in mind, that the synergies are more of an emergency thing. Without synergies you shouldn't even think of using a weapon you are not skilled with, with synergies you can actually hit something with it, although you won't be as good as you are with your primary skill weapons.

Surlent said:
It really annoyes when you have specialized in one particular profession and then find something special item which you can't use. This system would at least allow you to take some advantage of it and break the boundaries of fundamental class development seen in DnD.
DnD is really bad in that regard, considering the penalties you get.

Section8 said:
..and through a simple method of inheritance, all skills encompassed within a skill set receive synergy bonuses, it's just a question of working out weighting and influences. Let's just say for example, everytime you invest a single point into a skill, half goes into the skill itself, and the other half goes into into the parent skill set, for a net gain of 1 on the skill level, and 0.5 across the other encompassed skills. On top of that, the governing attribute gets a bit of a kick, which can improve multiple skill sets, and their child skills.
Sounds good, but I have a concern. For example, you have 5 skills at 10. You raise 1 skill to 100, that increases all other skills to 60. You raise another skill to 100 (by 40) that gives another 20 points to the remaining skills. Now you have 120, 100, 80, 80, 80. Looks a bit too high to me. The system would work well when only one skill is increased, but when you increase several, you are getting too powerfull too fast. Of course, I could be mistaken.

Same situation in my system looks a bit different. Let's assume that the bonuses are the same. You raise 1 skill to 100, that gives (100-10)*0.4=36 bonus points to other skills, making it 100,46,46,46,46. Looks good, you have one strong skills, and others are decent enough for emergency uses. You raise another skill to 80, and... nothing happens. Other skills are still 100,46,46,46. See what I mean?

Eclecticist said:
The best approach in my humble opinion would be to separate the skills even further, so that there is a technique for "handling (one-handed)," as well as specific weapon training skills, i.e. "technique (longsword)".
That is exactly what I have.

3 general skills: one handed, two handed, ranged

8 specialized skills: dagger, sword, axe, etc

General skills represent brute force. You are good at hitting things holding something in one hand/both hands/throwing something. You don't care what it is, if you can hold it, you can hit with it. Overall, raw power and damage vs finesse.

Specialized skills represent finesse. You are a true swordmaster or a spearman or wtatever it is you want to specialized at. You can use your weapon effectively, using weapon specific abilities like parry, interrupt, knockdown, penetration, etc.

The synergy thing was for the specialized skills, although the way everything works now, if you want to be good with many different weapons, you pick a general skill. If you want to specialize in one then you stick with one and accept the fact that you are useless with anything else. Or you can combine both as you see fit and have one-handed 20 and dagger 50. That way it's easier to understand and more straightforward, you know what you need to do to increase all in a group and what you need to do to increase one.
 
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Section8 said:
...and through a simple method of inheritance, all skills encompassed within a skill set receive synergy bonuses, it's just a question of working out weighting and influences. Let's just say for example, everytime you invest a single point into a skill, half goes into the skill itself, and the other half goes into into the parent skill set, for a net gain of 1 on the skill level, and 0.5 across the other encompassed skills. On top of that, the governing attribute gets a bit of a kick, which can improve multiple skill sets, and their child skills.

Hey, good to see you again.

This sounds a lot like Rolemaster, where you developed skill in individual schools and their respective areas separately. Something like this might work well as a slightly simplified version, though. This would kind of tie in with what I was thinking, too. Basically, when you raise your highest skill in a group, you raise both the skill and the group since it's all new knowledge, some of which will be applicable to related skills. However, if you raise a related skill, you're basically filling in the knowledge specific to that speciality. That probably sounds more complicated than it is. In practice, raising your highest skill would give you a payoff of 1 point per point invested, divided between the skill and the set. Raising a lesser related skill would give you a payoff of 2 points per 1 point invested, up until it caught up with your highest skill. So it would be relatively cheap to master all skills in a group, but more expensive to specialize in completely unrelated skills. To use Fallout's skill set as an example, it would cost about the same to master small guns, big guns, and energy weapons as it would cost to master energy weapons and speech. On the flip side, mastering skills that aren't in the same category would bring you to basic competency in a greater number of of skills.

I kind of like it, it's elegantly simple and fairly easy to understand, plus it makes sense.
 

Claw

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I guess this thread was inspired by Diablo2 LoD?
This sort of synergy is just a cheap attempt to fix an essentially broken skill system, and I don't like it. Skills should be useful enough to be worth investing into without synergy.
I'd prefer a tiered skill system, sorta like Section8's example, although not quite the same. I just imagined training a higher tier would effectively train all the lower skills and be more cost-effective if you count all the skill levels gained that way, but it wouldn't be as effective as focussing on a single skill.
It might be considered "over-powered" if too many useful skills are in the same tier, but many games either promote specialization or are just so easy that skillpoints are no concern so a little "help" in training related skills would only offest the inherent advantage of flexibility.
And with this system, a warrior who might wish to train several different weapons could do so easily, while a mage might be perfectly happy just being able to handle a dagger while training magic skills more broadly instead.
And it might help with people not investing into skills because they don't seem important enough too.

Besides this 'direct' connection, skills could be interdependant in other ways. Like, to throw an axe effectively you need to be trained in both axe and throwing skills.
 

Section8

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Sounds good, but I have a concern. For example, you have 5 skills at 10. You raise 1 skill to 100, that increases all other skills to 60. You raise another skill to 100 (by 40) that gives another 20 points to the remaining skills. Now you have 120, 100, 80, 80, 80. Looks a bit too high to me. The system would work well when only one skill is increased, but when you increase several, you are getting too powerfull too fast. Of course, I could be mistaken.

Well, it all depends on how interchangable you want the skills to be. Numerically the 1:1 ratio was just an example, and is completely scalable. Using you numbers and a 2:1 ratio yields:

100, 40, 40, 40 for the initial spending of 90 points
120, 100, 60, 60 for an additional 60 points to raise a second skill to 100

But whataever the ratio is, it still preserves the idea of specialization in the first skill, and synergy in related skills.

One thing I hadn't really considered in depth was the reasoning for skill synergies within the context of the game. From your discussions, I get the idea that they're backup or emergency skills to be used if for some reason, your primary skill is unable to be used.

It got me to thinking firstly of interesting game situations where this mechanic becomes an interesting choice. First of all there is the obvious, the character finds a clearly superior weapon outside of the specialisation. I'll come back to this, because it's not a particularly interesting choice.

Secondly, there is the idea of disguises and appearances. This is something inspired by Hitman of all things, and I'm not sure if it even implements it. Think factions, for example the Hammerites of the Thief universe. If I was to pose as a Hammer, I certainly wouldn't be wielding the longsword I'm most skilled in. I'd be trying to get a complete disguise, even if that means compromising my weapon and armour skills. In this situation, it makes sense to provide synergy bonuses so the player is not completely useless in this situation (or maybe you want them to be, which increases the tension and reinforces the absolute need to remain disguised.)

Thirdly, still on the topic of factions, what about joining a faction that requires you as a member to present a particular appearance, maybe even to the point of dictating further character development toward respecialising to fit the new found faith (or whatever.)

But going back to the idea of trading up your weapon for something your not specialised with simply because it's uber. This can be a bad thing in some respects. One of the things that keeps me coming back to Fallout and System Shock 2 especially is the tight constraints on skill use. The complete restriction upon unskilled use in SS2 means that I can play the entire game again and experience weapons, skills and pathways I've never fully explored.

This becomes even more potent with skills that share a synergy, but achieve entirely different results. For example, you might abstract that blunt weapons are more damaging to the stamina/fatigue of your opponent (a la Arcanum) while edged weapons are purely lethal, damaging health only. This minor difference allows the player to approach combat in an entirely different tactical manner, and non-lethal/subdual damage opens all sorts of differing RP opportunities.

So once again, it all falls upon specific implementation within the context of your own system, so I hope this provides some food for thought.

This sounds a lot like Rolemaster, where you developed skill in individual schools and their respective areas separately....

That's a fairly sensible summary of a system, and it would work especially well within Fallout's item progression, where a character can tag big guns and not see one until they're halfway through the game. (although this in itself is open to discussion, since the original fallout intended energy and big guns to be high end, while Fallout 2's gauss weapons basically eliminated any need to train outside of small guns)

But a I said above, it's all relative to the specific implementation.
 

Vault Dweller

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Section8 said:
One thing I hadn't really considered in depth was the reasoning for skill synergies within the context of the game. From your discussions, I get the idea that they're backup or emergency skills to be used if for some reason, your primary skill is unable to be used.
Yes, there could be situations where you can't use your primary weapons (depending on what your primary weapon is), i.e. you can't go with your favourite 2-handed hammer everwhere. Also there are combat situations where other weapons may work better (there are no immunities though)

Secondly, there is the idea of disguises and appearances.
That sounds cool. I actually have disquise skill, but never thought of weapons restrictions it may create. A legionnaire would be expected to carry a short sword or a spear but not an axe. Makes sense.

Thirdly, still on the topic of factions, what about joining a faction that requires you as a member to present a particular appearance, maybe even to the point of dictating further character development toward respecialising to fit the new found faith (or whatever.)
That sounds great too, I like it.

This minor difference allows the player to approach combat in an entirely different tactical manner, and non-lethal/subdual damage opens all sorts of differing RP opportunities.
I was thinking of that too. That's why I thought that general /specialized skills ( see the end of my prev post) would be a better idea. General skills (1-handed, 2-handed, and ranged) would allow you to use any weapon, but only specialized skills (dagger, sword, etc) would allow you to use weapons' special abilities effectively.

so I hope this provides some food for thought.
It certainly did, thank you.
 

RGE

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I imagine that I'd prefer a base skill and then something like perks/feats to enhance the use of specific weapon types. Mostly because different weapons may have different types of advantages, and perhaps some tricks would only be taught by certain people.

Another possibility would be a general skill and then several specific skills, where the general skill can only be increased to the value of the highest specific skill, and then the total skill value is calculated by adding the general skill to the specific skill in question. That would give a synergy effect of roughly 50% for untrained weapon types. But perhaps this is (pretty much) what Walks with the Snails meant? I read through it twice and I'm still not sure. ;)
 

Claw

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RGE said:
I imagine that I'd prefer a base skill and then something like perks/feats to enhance the use of specific weapon types. Mostly because different weapons may have different types of advantages, and perhaps some tricks would only be taught by certain people.
Sure, but that seems to be a totally different category to me. As I understood it the discussion was about different skills, not specific tricks. There are lots of tricks you could imagine as Perks, like akimbo pistols. :wink:


Another possibility would be a general skill and then several specific skills, where the general skill can only be increased to the value of the highest specific skill, and then the total skill value is calculated by adding the general skill to the specific skill in question. That would give a synergy effect of roughly 50% for untrained weapon types. But perhaps this is (pretty much) what Walks with the Snails meant? I read through it twice and I'm still not sure. ;)
I am sure we could debate for all eternity about the different "general skill with subskills" variants, where everyone has a slightly different idea of how to realize it.
 

crufty

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I think shadowrun had a similar mechanic...it is not a bad idea...maybe each skill could have some base amount, based on character stats. Then have some capped unskilled bonus--say 20%, which is defined by some formula that utilizes other stats. Then the rest would have to be learned.

You could also say that if a successful skill use is due to this unskilled bonus, unless it is some kind of critical success, there is a reduction in skill effectiveness. This way, if you become an expert rifle-shot, you still have a good opportunity of shooting at--and hitting--a moving target with your new magnum, but maybe your damage is reduced sometimes to represent you general inexperience with it...until you take an expert combat training course for pistols (or something).

I personally would use this system without percentages, and instead just have proficiences. Makes the math easier, maybe freeing up more time for implementing scenarios that use skills (vs debugging complicated balance issues, etc). But that is really a matter of taste...
 

Severian Silk

Guest
Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I think you should use feats to tie skills together instead of synergies.

E.g. you have a "Master of Blades" feat that gives a bonus to both the sword and dagger skills.
Code:
SKILLS		FEATS
******		*****
Sword --+
			|
			+------	Master of Blades	
			|
Dagger -+
			|
			+------	Light Weapons	
			|
Dart ---+

Doctor -+
			|
			+------	Healer
			|
Herbal -+
 

Vault Dweller

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I like that idea, but the only problem I have with it is that it implies that without such a perk/feat a sword fighter would have no idea how to use a dagger or an axe. Perhaps, the Master feat which we actually have (see the char system screen) would add bonuses to synergies, i.e. extra 10% or something like that.
 

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